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Messages - KWKloeber

Hey Noah,

Nice electrical upgrades!  Very sweet looking.

Now - I really appreciate your comments and to your points...

A bit harsh?  Yep.  I thought I should back off on a family forum instead of letting loose with what I really thought.

My remarks were in no way toward owners who decide to replace their harnesses -- that's a personal decision and I applaud everyone who takes the time to "learn" their vessels and make those kinds of decisions.  They were about Seaward and CD marketing a product that is substandard.  Yes, I said it -- WAY substandard for marine use.

Also, I was speaking of only the harness upgrade kits and non-compliant engine panels -- the absurdly undersized battery cables and distribution panel are another issue.

That on the table, I believe that your comments make my case! 

Your pics appear to be of the cable end, not the remainder of the harness?  At least I think I see the solenoid fuse, so I believe that's the case. 

I am wondering -- when you replaced -- did you use the CD harness?  If not, why not?
You said you didn't use the terminal strip -- what did you do for wire termination on both ends (panel/engine) and at the Gummy Bears connectors?

I'll talk 'generically' because I don't know for sure the condition of your harness beyond your pic.  The vast majority of harnesses are perfectly serviceable between the Gummy Bears.  However, the SW/Cd upgrades do not correct issues on the wire ends outside the harness extension -- only at the point of the Gummy Bear plugs.  The longer harness that they tout -- is only to facilitate installing the stupid, stupid terminal strip -- and they even state that the longer harness is because some are too short to install their strips.

Agree or disagree?

The upgrade does nothing to correct the non-compliant panel and protect the harness from over-current, and it's very easy to do that 90% of the way, which is better than doing nothing.  The upgrade kit should address that, instead of selling two $3.95 terminal strips and four 25-cent NON-MARINE-GRADE ring terminals ($9.00 retail) for $32 boat bucks.  That's unconscionable, IMHO, when it doesn't address the wiring issues.  Or a $156 harness that's worth less than $50 retail -- and it still leaves the non-compliant situation after you're done -- and can make the situation worse.  They supply it with no sheath/wire protection, knowing that an owner is not going to strap the harness down every 18" so it complies.  Once again, CD/SW should know better better and it's just wrong, wrong, wrong to give owners a false sense that they are addressing the issues while they have their hands in there emptying our pockets.   

The kit can make the situation worse -- it opens up 8 x 2 x 2 wire ends to potential corrosion, and for corrosion to travel up the conductors.  Not to mention possible corrosion on the strip itself.  Not to mention a strip that involves putting strain on the wire connections themselves. Would you install a terminal strip using ring terminals such that it could be strained by the harness?  I bet not, yet that's what SW/CD wants owners to do.  That's HOW THEY show it installed!  That in itself is non compliant.

Agree or disagree?

SW/CD touts a harness that doesn't address known issues at the wire ends themselves -- if they were looking out for owners, they would sell a harness that has proper, complaint, marine grade wire termination installed to match what's needed at each panel gauge and engine component, and include a heavy Alt B+ post to solenoid B post cable, a heavy Alt B- post to bell housing cable, and compliant overcurrent protection at the solenoid for the panel power feed.  As it is the harness is unprotected and can burn (corrected on the B series engines.)  Again, the kit and/or longer harness that CD/Sw touts does absolutely nothing to correct those issues.

Agree or disagree?

The termination at the engine components and panel are non-marine grade, open-end terminals, on untinned wire, and are out of sight/out of mind.  They are as, or maybe more of, a problem than are the Gummy Bear connectors, and the touted fix from CD/SW does nothing to address that.  But it can leave owners with a false sense that they have corrected the wiring issues.  It simply does not!  in fact, that is a false sense of security because the kit is not state-of-the-art and is not proper marine wire connection or termination.

Agree or disagree?

If you had a mechanic work on Jete' who sold you on the need to replace your harness wires -- and,

1. Installed the new wires using open end, non-heat shrink, non-marine-grade "stake-on" terminals,
2. Left bare copper wire ends open to corrosion,
3. Kept original, corroded, open-end, non-marine-grade "stake-on" terminals in place -- and spliced on the new wires to those pigtails.
4. Left terminal strips hanging in the air -- subject to strain (non-compliant!!!),
5. Installed an under-sized charging cable and and 
6. Left a corroded, questionable ground on the equipment
7. Installed no over-current protection (ABYC required!!!)
8. Installed the harness with no physical protection/conduit, nor tied it down every 18" (non-compliant!!!)

Would you say that person was a craftsman .... or a butcher? 
And that the materials installed hit the mark for marine use .... or fell well below your expectations?

When you boil away CD's/SW's hype, marketing, and BS about the "upgrade kit," and assess it by the numbers -- the 8 items above are exactly what it does.  That's simply wrong, wrong, wrong.

Agree or disagree?

Noah, I am interested in further thoughts on this and whether you disagree with any of the specific points I make.

Just FYI




On the B series engines, the oil pressure switch is not a Kubota part!  It's on the end of a hose/manifold "add-on" that Westerbeke installs when it marine-izes the Kubota block.

Ports on Kubota blocks are British Standard Pipe Thread/Japanese Industrial Standard thread - the oil switch port on the block is 1/8" x 28 BSPT/JIS thread.  Also, I (believe) it is a single terminal switch. 

The Westerbeke oil switch on the XPB is 2 terminal, and is 1/8" x 27 NPT thread.  Westerbeke installs a BSPT/JIS to NPT adapter on the engine block and extends the port with a hose and manifold -- the east end of it being 1/8 x 27 NPT.  The wiring on the B series engines requires a 2-terminal switch (because it controls the fuel pump emergency shut off.)

So the good news is you can use a standard, 2-contact oil pressure switch from your local auto parts guy that looks like this:

What you're looking for is a normally open switch that closes around 10 psi.  (The PS200 switch above closes at 30 psi.)  The problem finding one, is that Wells (who makes switches for Autozone, Advance Auto, etc) publishes only spotty specifications on its part numbers.

The OEM Westerbeke switch is about 15 boat bucks, so it may be well worth your time and effort to (ugggghhh am I really saying this?) just buy that one.

Let me know if you find an aftermarket p/n that works.

It's beyond me how CD and Seaward have been able to snow owners into buying that stupid (IMHO) connector upgrade, and a harness that's (at the outside) worth $50 in copper.  Overwhelmingly, there's nothing wrong with the harnesses - only the ends and the Gummy Bear plugs.  Everything in between is fine and can be kept.

The european terminal strip and 4 crimp terminals (not EVEN heat shrink!!!!l) are worth about $9.00 from Radio Shack.

Why/how CD/Seaward would/could flim-flam owners into introducing 30+ more potential trouble/corrosion points into the system is beyond reasoning. There's so much better and reasonbly cost options.

Plus the CD/Seaward 'upgrades' still leave vulnerable parts of the system below current state of the art, like:

    Terminals behind the panel and at engine components, that have absolutely NO place on a boat!!
    Leaving currently exposed, non-tinned wire to corrode along its length!!
    Introducing new, non-tinned wire ends to corrode.

The real kicker, is that older systems (harnesses and panel wiring) are STILL left non-compliant re: ABYC over current protection and a real fire hazard!!  It's relatively so easy to make it 90% compliant and protect the wiring harness.

Again, IMHO - a mechanic who doesn't recognize the above issues/shortcomings and identifies the 'fix' to be to install a new over-priced harness and two $3.49 terminal strips, demonstrates no knowledge/background of marine electrical, and would never be allowed back on my boat.

I'm currently working on the harness wiring on a CTY in cali and a CS in Mich, and am making relatively 'easy' (though tedious) changes that correct the issues and protect the wiring rather than fill vendor's pockets who are not doing owners any favors with stupid, stupid 'upgrade kits' that don't address the real/entire issues.

Again IMHO and JTSO.

No apologies for being passionate about owners wasting money that can and should be put toward better improvements. 
It just makes my head want to explode when I see this going on that I get the canthelpits.

V (stepping down from the soapbox now)

Posters and Postettes,

Can anyone point me to how to upload a file (pdf, engine parts) and to where, so that I can link to the location/file in a  addition to TechWiki?

The tech instructions/help speak to uploading a pic, but not that I can see how to upload a larger pdf file to link to.  And the 'upload' button shown in the instructions doesn't really exist (that I can find, anyway.)


Quote from: mainesail on July 01, 2014, 05:33:04 AM
There are two versions of the Top Cog.

Top Cog Gold Level - Grooves on top only help aid flexibility and cooling

Top-Cog Gold Level - Groves on top & cogs on bottom aid in flexibility and cooling

Not to be confused with the Dayco "Gold Label" with only bottom cogs.  You need a score card!
The parts finder link I gave will show you which "Gold Label" belt it is when you click on the p/n - bottom cog, top cog, both cog.



Do you have the alternator upgrade bracket, do you have the oem 55 amp alternator?   -- that makes a difference on the length.

I am a Westerbeke parts dealer - my distributor recommends the Dayco Top Cog belt.  IMHO, it is the best belt you can buy for our applications under our conditions.  It is much better than bottom-cog belts (JTSO.)

I switched on Westerbeke's recommendation 10 years ago on my M-25 and will never go back to the other style.  The Top Cog runs cooler because there's more belt in contact with the pulleys (heat dissipation), and with more in contact there's less slippage also (so less wear.)  The Top Cog for the M25 and XP  is 0.44" wide, and that's what the Westerbeke distributor recommended.

I have belt numbers but hesitate to post them because there is apparently some variance in which fits the  XP.  If you give me your current belt outside circumference,  I can tell you which Dayco Top Cog belt matches that length.

You can also do a dimensional look up here.  Just enter "close" numbers -  it will return a list of options.

and a part interchange look up here... (bottom left box)

I highly recommend that  belt - Advance auto carries Dayco - and others do also I'm sure.

Hey Stu,

I couldn't find it in the engine section or I would have added this note...

We have to be cautious of ordering Kubota parts for the Universal engines based on tractor model numbers.  The tractor model numbers are a guide,  but are not absolute.  There are parts that are different between different versions of a given tractor model. 

For one example, the gear case cover and some of it's component parts differ between the tractors with gear drive versus hydrostatic drive that have the M-25 and M-25XP equivalent engines (Kubota D850, D950 engines).  Although both of two covers are used on the base 850/950 block, the two parts used on the different type tractor drives CANNOT be interchanged.   The configuration of the oil filter receivers are vastly different.  The gear-driven model fits the Universal engines, the hydrostatic model cover does not.

That's just one example that I have lived through, and there are likely other differences in parts interchangeability within a given tractor model, and also for tractors that have variants of the newer Universal B-series engines.

-Ken K
Main Message Board / Re: Bad head seacock?
June 28, 2014, 08:53:41 PM
I'm wondering if it is bad/leaking joker valve -- does the  water continue coming in while pumping,  or just the first stroke like it's been sitting in the pump cylinder?

Main Message Board / Re: M35BC engine coolant pump
June 25, 2014, 08:00:36 PM
Which Kubota engine block or tractor model is that engine built on?

Main Message Board / Re: Intake out of the water?
June 25, 2014, 07:53:51 PM
If your heal is such that the intake is above the WL, you have more pressing issues, like no oil getting to the oil pemp, your transmission fluid, etc!!
Main Message Board / Re: F R E E
June 24, 2014, 07:12:21 AM
Kevin, I emailed you about the hatches. 

Ken K
Just note that RC has cautioned that the glow plugs are 10 volt so the long cockpit run is not necessariky a bad thing.  With the gkow plug slave relay installalled, make sure they aren't fired up much more than 10 secs at a time or life can be shortened.

Main Message Board / Re: Oil pressure alarm is gone
June 24, 2014, 12:05:46 AM

The switch may have gone bad, or the light blue harness wire to the switch is open, or the circuit board is bad.

If you ground the terminal on the sender/wire end (located above the starter and a bear to get to) the alarm should sound.  If not the alarm is probably bad - Seaward had a circuit board that powered both the temp (from the gauge sender) and oil alarms, but it's no longer available.  There's a dual (light/buzzer) alarm avail that both the oil pressure and newer temperature SWITCH, not gauge sender can be hooked to.  The thought is if it alarms, shut down no matter the cause -- and just ck the temp gauge to know which is alarming.

Note that there's a Wb Service Bulletin out on the correct socket to remove/install the oil sender without damaging it.

Note also that the oil switch is a normally closed contact, and is 1/8" british / JIS pipe thread, not 1/8" NPT.  It's available at Autozone, though I don't have the p/n. Maybe they can cross it to the Kubota p/n.  I extended mine out a couple inches so it clears the exhaust manifold (and added a tee and sender for a pressure gauge.)  If it is extended, it can be fashioned to either retain the JIS thread, or with NPT thread (so more readily common NPT oil pressure switches can be used.)

Main Message Board / Re: 2 line reefing
June 17, 2014, 07:18:02 PM
Yes line runs on the other side....  have you seen this?