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Messages - Breakin Away

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Main Message Board / Re: C34MkII fuel tank maintenance
« on: December 07, 2019, 07:00:20 PM »
Jim : With a MKII you can do the same!! 
Just disconnect the inlet fuel hose to the Racor.  Put that hose in to a mason jar and turn on the key switch (battery power ON) and go to the glow plug (spring loaded) position for 45+? seconds.  Enough to get all of the fuel out of the line and let the "old bottom" fuel fill and pump into the mason jar! 

A thought   :clap
I'm coming back to this topic after a couple of months of working on other stuff. My fuel tank is down to about 5 gallons (based on the fuel gauge calibration that I posted elsewhere), and I am preparing to drain it for the winter like Maine Sail recommends. But I am a bit confused by your recommendation here. Isn't the lift pump downstream from the Racor filter? If so, disconnecting the fuel inlet to the Racor should allow the tank to gravity drain into the Mason jar without the pump running. A Mason jar would be fine for taking a sample (though I'm not sure why this sample would look any different from what's in the plastic water separation cup). In my case, I'll need something a little larger than a Mason jar to drain the whole tank.

It's been a little while since I looked over the boat, but I recall seeing something that indicated it would be difficult to for me to remove the tubing to the Racor filter, so I plan to attach a hose to the petcock under the water separation cup and drain the tank through there. I'm not going to try to drain the filter dry, because I don't like creating air pockets in the system. I plan to keep the end of the drain hose a few inches above the Racor filter so the fuel flow will stop before the Racor starts to empty.

Main Message Board / Re: Water Heater Question
« on: November 14, 2019, 05:12:39 PM »
I don't think that age of the check valve is a negative here. Ken said that the older ones bolted together and were pressure rated. At some point Shurflo changed the design to a heat-welded one. Not sure when that change was made, but your 32 year old one might be better than the newer ones. Does yours bolt together, and allow disassembly to clean the flapper?

Main Message Board / Re: Water Heater Question
« on: November 14, 2019, 04:54:49 PM »
The density of water at 100įC is 4% lower than at 20įC. The water in a 6 gallon tank will expand by a quart in volume, putting pressure on hoses, barbs, valves, and pump. How much pressure depends on the elasticity and volume of those peripheral components, virtually all of which will be at ambient temperature because the water isn't flowing.

The density of water at 77įC (engine temperature) is 2.5% lower than at 20įC. The water in a 6 gallon tank will expand by 0.6 quart in volume. That's still significant expansion, and could test the limits of the check valve. Bursting is definitely less likely than using the electric heater, but not sure I'd say it's impossible.

What is the pressure rating of the heat-welded version of the check valve?

Main Message Board / Re: Water Heater Question
« on: November 14, 2019, 08:28:06 AM »

Iíll submit that youíre using up too many brain cells over something that plumbers have figured out long ago.  :D 
The WH has a temperature & pressure relief valve set at 150 psi. The shark bite cv is 200 psi and if you use 1/2Ē copper stubs you can warm/expand the pvc water hose to fit over them.
If plumbers were doing it, I'd have all copper plumbing.

When Catalina did it, I ended up with a (apparently) hazardously under-spec'ed check valve. That's what's led to burning some brain cells over wondering whether the PVC ball valves in my manifold might also be under-spec'ed. I now see that the PVC ball valves I saw at Home Depot are spec'ed to 150 psi, so presumably the ones in the boat are similar.

Main Message Board / Re: Water Heater Question
« on: November 14, 2019, 05:45:06 AM »
The Camco valves were very similar to your picture. They were not true ball valves, but more like a rotating gate that appeared to create a constriction to flow with the valve in any position. Not sure if it would be significant restriction, but for that and other reasons I'm working on my own design. PVC ball valves can be gotten for around $2.50, and though they're not 2-way or 3-way, I can buy a bunch and configure to my liking if I can find space for them. I'm waiting until next week when I'll be in Wisconsin, since Menard's will have a lot more options than I can find around here at Home Depot or Lowes.

OK, I can see that in a fully closed system with no air pockets, the water's thermal expansion could create huge pressures in theory. But since the hot water outlet has no check valve, I'd think that a simple pressure regulator (less than the WH's pressure relief) could reduce a lot of headaches. I'll do some research on that, but probably just replace the CV. Even with a new pressure-rated CV and 250 psi rated fiber-reinforced vinyl, I'd still be concerned with the pressure rating of the PVC ball valves used in the potable water tank manifold and all the plastic hose barb fittings. The whole system is only as strong as its weakest link.

Main Message Board / Re: Water Heater Question
« on: November 13, 2019, 08:11:20 PM »
Ken, I've had a chance now to look over some of the prior posts about the Shurflo check valve. I'm a little curious about a couple of things.

First, I'm puzzled about just how a 100-150 psi pressure could build up in the heater. As an engineer, I'm sure that you realize that 212įF water has a vapor pressure of 14.7 psi, by definition. Ignoring that, are the little plastic hose barbs rated for 100-150 psi? If not, wouldn't that blow first due to the pressure coming out the hot water outlet (which does not have a check valve) and propagating through the whole system? Are the pump and its fittings rated for such pressures? By the way, it looks like the heater hose that WM sells is rated for 250 psi, but it's only rated for up to 150F. Go figure...

Jim's very nice picture shows a white plastic coupler on his hot water outlet. Is that just a F-F NPT coupler, or could it perhaps have a pressure regulator built in, which would render the CV safe for use? I have similar couplers on both cold and hot water sides, but can't get eyeballs at the right angle to see whether they are actually pressure regulators. If not, could I possibly replace them with pressure regulators, which could protect all the barbs, water pump, etc. against the effects of high pressure?

Finally, I thought I'd mention that I have to return the bypass kit to Amazon. It was from Amazon Warehouse, which I've used for a couple years to score great deals on "used" items that were merely in blemished packaging. This time they were really used, and the valve internals had a dark oily residue. (gross!) It appears that the original purchaser used it for oil extraction or some other toxic application, then returned it. I think it's nearly criminal for Amazon to resell something like that for potable water use. Long story short: I'm open to your suggestions for a model of valve that has low resistance to flow. Frankly, I'd love to find a four-way criss-cross (or "x port") valve that could accomplish the bypass in one device, if a small, affordable version exists in plastic or other low-cost safe material.

Your hypothesis sounds very plausible. Thanks for posting.

Going by memory, my motor idles at about 800 RPM and chatters when in gear. The chatter disappears at 900 or 1000 RPM, and I'll quickly put it at that speed after shifting into gear. I am tempted to readjust the idle speed to 900-1000 to work around the problem, but of course shifting at a higher speed could create other problems. If I also have a stiff damper plate, would that better facilitate shifting at the slightly higher speed without causing any damage to motor or transmission?

Main Message Board / Re: Water Heater Question
« on: November 12, 2019, 07:29:47 PM »

Itís not that a CV doesnít belong there - it does (on the cold water supply to the WH.) It's simply that THAT particular CV isnít (according to ShurFlo) designed to withstand the pressure that could develop.

Jabsco makes an RV/marine Cv that is approved for WH use.

I bought a SharkBite hot water Cv (home depot online) to adapt to the 1/2Ē hose.

Be sure to get a bypass that doesn't restrict the flow. Many do.
I had posted earlier this year about that (with pcs.)
Hi Ken, thanks for the clarification, and especially for pointing out the hazardous check valve. You are right, I misinterpreted your post to mean that check valves in general were not permitted. I'm a little surprised because the check valve in my picture was apparently installed by Catalina. I went through PO's service records and the heater and associated plumbing have not been replaced. Is there a history of Catalina putting in a sub-par CV? Maybe something that should be in the "Do this or else" topics for MkII vintage boats? I'll plan on replacing the CV that's in there while I'm "screwing around with new plumbing".

The camco kits Jim shows can be had from a discount RV place for about half the floating RV sources. 
One consideration is to make sure youíre getting a full flow ball valve.  See pic for what you DONíT want.
I couldn't tell from your picture what brand/model of undesirable valve you were showing, but since you recommended the Camco kit that Jim had in his picture, I ordered that. I found it at Amazon for under $12, so it's no great loss. It still hasn't shipped yet, so I could cancel it if I move quickly. Let me know if I should do that.
Breaking : It takes me less than 15 minutes to winterize the WH - rather than screwing around with new plumbing!! 

As Stu says "your boat- your choice" !!
A thought
I'm very happy for you. Some of us have our heaters in different locations and/or different aftermarket accessories that restrict easy access to the plumbing. You can see in my picture that one of the struggles that has slowed me down greatly is a hose clamp that was installed upside down, making it virtually impossible to release without significant reconfiguration. After all this hassle, my choice for my boat is to follow Mainesail's advice and install a bypass.

Main Message Board / Re: Water Heater Question
« on: November 12, 2019, 02:36:21 PM »
Just a heads up that (Iíve posted it before), according to an email from ShurFlo that CV is NOT supposed to be used on a WH.
It can explode.
Thereís an older version black ShurFlo CV with the halves bolted together ( not plastic welded ) that was approved for WH use.
Sorry, I haven't seen that email from ShurFlo.

I assume that CV means check valve. WTF? Isn't a check valve installed on EVERY Catalina 34? It's in the plumbing schematic. Isn't it in a few million RVs in the world? It's pretty standard to prevent hot water from siphoning into the cold water via Venturi/Bernoulli effect.

Could they, perhaps, have said not to put one on the hot water side, but the cold water side is OK?

As for yesterday's WTF moment, here's a closeup of my picture. I had to cut a wrench down to make it small enough to get to the hose clamp screw. Clearly this installation was done without any thought to how it might need to be taken apart for winterization.

Main Message Board / Re: Water Heater Question
« on: November 12, 2019, 08:26:02 AM »
Yes, that is the check valve. I am trying to remove the hose from it, but finding it rather difficult. Look closely at the picture and you will see why.

Main Message Board / Re: Water Heater Question
« on: November 11, 2019, 06:52:05 PM »
I ordered the Camco 2-valve bypass kit from Amazon, so I may have additional questions after it comes in. In the meantime, here's my WTF moment from today. What's wrong with this picture?

Main Message Board / Re: Water Heater Question
« on: November 11, 2019, 03:08:33 PM »
Guys : Hard for me to understand why someone would want to bypass the WH except for an emergency!!
If you have ever done extensive sailing in a boat that does NOT have a water heater, it is a "Luxury" to have a C34 with a WH. 
Screwing around with a "Sun Shower" Blatter is a real pain or having to get used to a COLD shower is even worse!!  :cry4`

My 1st Mate and I found that there is nothing like a nice warm shower just before hitting the Vberth in the evening!!  :clap

A thought
Looks like you donít understand the context here. Winterizing the potable water system is much faster, and requires much less antifreeze, if you bypass the heater. Then you un-bypass it during the season

Also, OP needed to bypass his due to a leak.

Main Message Board / Re: Water Heater Question
« on: November 11, 2019, 11:55:51 AM »
Thanks for the suggestions, and the great pics. I'm going to have to look over this design carefully. Unfortunately, I have a more cramped space because your tubing at the top of your first picture is right where PO installed a charger/inverter. I'm going to figure out whether I can add some elbows to maneuver around it.

Main Message Board / Re: Water Heater Question
« on: November 10, 2019, 08:33:58 PM »
I would suggest when you replace your hot water heater install a bypass.  Saves a lot of aggravation winterizing and is little added work when you have your water heater out.  Here is a link to WM can probably do better someplace else.

After looking closer I'd buy one with two 3way valves
Hi all, I'm re-activating this thread because it's relevant to me. I'm not replacing my water heater, but I am shopping around for bypass kits for my existing heater (which is only about 5 years old), and have a bunch of questions.
  • Does the linked Camco kit have the right threads for our heaters?
  • Will it fit in the tight confines of the MkII dinette settee? Is there an acceptable workaround with elbow fittings?
  • Is it possible to remove the old fittings and replace the new ones without removing the whole tank?
  • Is the three-way valve a "full flow" type? If not, can you recommend a valve that is?
  • I like the idea of a single three way valve paired with the check valve that's included for the hot water outlet. That simplifies things because you only have to flip one valve. But does this new check valve (in addition to the cold water check valve that's already present) create too much resistance to flow?
  • Finally, it appears that I'd have to add some hose barb fittings to attach the existing hoses. I wasn't able to pull apart my system today to measure the ID, but it looks like the hoses are about 3/8" id. Is this correct?

Main Message Board / Re: Plumbing of hot water heater in MkII models
« on: November 08, 2019, 08:26:56 AM »
I will be winterizing tomorrow evening, and the location of the water heater in the plumbing schematic will impact how I do it.

It's simple, connect the water lines that go to the water heater.  You will need a hose barb connector, an elbow worked best for me.  Then open the water heater drain.  It will drain slow, I use a wet/dry vac to speed it up.  Resist the urge to pop the pressure relief.  When I've done that had problems with it reseating and had to replace. 
I've found it a pain to pull the lines from the hose barbs and after a few years had to trim the lines.  So when the water heater needed replaced added the bypass.  Works well for me.
What is the easiest place to make the plumbing crossover on the MkII boats? My fittings and tubes near the water heater are inaccessible because of close clearances. Is there a good place under the galley sink?

I know that ideally this should be done right at the water heater like Mainesail shows on his website, but that this is simply impossible on my boat. In the past I've always drained it as best I can and pumped in some antifreeze, though without the bypass it's tough to tell how much is going into the tank. This year I have a refractometer so I'll be able to check for dilution in the heater. I've also put a washing machine hose from the heater into the bilge so I can capture samples from there.

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