Console buzzer alarm - electrical problem?

[Breakin Away]

I could use some help from experienced Catalina owners about a problem I'm having with the oil pressure/high temperature buzzer at the console (newer version located below the wheel).

My boat has been on the hard the past two weeks, and I went to run the motor to heat up the oil for an oil change. Upon turning the key, the alarm came on (as it does sometimes, but not always). But after starting up, the alarm continued.  I know it was not over temperature because it had just started up, temp gauge was still pegged at the bottom, water coming out of exhaust, and IR temperature gun showed no sign of overheating on the engine. Also, neither the oil pressure warning light or high temperature light were illuminated.

The buzzer has never gone off in this way throughout the season - only since the boat has been on the hard. I started the motor about 10 times, and the alarm was on for about 8 of the starts. So the problem seems to be intermittent, but happening about 80% of the time.

Other info:

• When the motor first fires, tach goes up to 1000 for a split second, then drops to zero if the buzzer is on. During the two startups that the alarm did not sound, one time the tach read properly, and the other time it did not.
• 
  Outside temperature is in the mid 50s. Glow plugs were heated during first startup. Slight voltage drop indicated that they were active.

During the season I did notice a slight problem with the audio alarm, but it was different from this. When I first turned on the key prior to pressing the start button, sometimes the alarm would not sound immediately. When this happened, the alarm would usually come on when I first pressed the start button, then go off a second later after the engine started. As best as I can recall, the audible alarm generally would come on after stopping the motor until I turned the key off (as it should), but there might have been a time or two when it did not. In general, it seemed like this problem with the buzzer would be more likely to happen when things were cold, but I'm not sure of that. I have this issue on my list to fix, and if it's related to my new problem maybe I'll get a two-fer.

The simultaneous problem with the audio buzzer and the tachometer seems to me to point to an electrical connection, perhaps at a corroded common ground. (Would appreciate you help in telling me where this might be located.)  Also, the disappearance of the problem when things were warm could indicate that the corroded connection would heat up and then start to conduct, which of course could be a cause for other concerns.

At present I have not changed the oil due to other problems with my lousy pumping equipment. And I have not winterized because I know I'll want to turn over the motor again.  So I may have some time to try things before next spring if you have ideas.

It seems the Universal manual isn't the greatest help with this, since Catalina uses a custom control panel. Universal's "Captain Control Panel" looks pretty close, but not an exact match for Catalina's. And the Catalina manual seems to have nothing on this. So I come to you for advice. If there is something I'm missing in the manual, or a better version of the manual online, please point me in the right direction.

EDIT: I just started up one more time. This time the buzzer stayed on, but the tach worked. Arrgggh!

[KWKloeber]

It's PROBABLY a failed oil switch, but that's not 100 per-cent -- just the most likely place to start.  Forget the temp alarm and light for now.  More on that later ***

First, the panel isn't that important here, it's the two "Catalina" engine/harness schematics you need (35B"C" stands for "Catalina" wiring standard, opposed to the Westerbeke wiring standard.)  See the 35B Service Manual.

Second, I'll admit that I get cranky when I see the crap put out that causes us problems down the road.  JTSO and I'm entitled to it. 

To your problem:

The panel lamps are wired in parallel with the alarm so the alarm can go off and never know one is burned out or whatever. Does the oil light illuminate (along w/ alarm) when the key is turned? (The temp light shouldn't light and the temp portion of the alarm shouldn't go off.)  Only the low oil alarm and light (no pressure.)  These type problems are harder to troubleshoot due to CTY's prior and continuing poor documentation of electrical systems.  Plus it's idiotic cost-saving choice to not install an oil pressure gauge like Universal Motors provided (and Westerbeke continues to provide) on its panels. 
I installed a gauge on my panel and suggest everyone should.

The Wb's wiring on the B engines is so convoluted, I can't even explain the oil alarm except to say it back-feeds a wire to ground though a resistor and auto-reset circuit breaker (not allowed by ABYC:shock:, but ABYC doesn't concern Westerbeke much on the old engines or new B engines.)

To check the switch, remove the 2 wires to the switch, short the female terminals together (for a good connection I suggest a jumper wire w/ 2 male quick connect terminals, rather than taping terminals together.)  If your alarm problems go away, the switch has filed and replace it -- if not we'll dig deeper.

Or, the switch terminals might be loose or broken off -- see this and prior posts here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9115.msg66799.html#msg66799

Suggest you install the plug/cover I show on that thread, with dielectric grease on the terms to protect them.  Make SURE the harness is tied so there's NO movement in the wires to the switch.  THIS may be an issue since there's occurrences of broken terminals.  I dissected a B engine harness and found that Westerbeke used stiff UNTINNED SAE wire on its harness, not UL 1426 type III (most flexible) tinned marine wire.
But we'll give Wb another pass for once again non-ABYC-compliant crap when they could just "do it right."


***The temp warning/light ....
Understand that the temp gauge is completely independant of the hi-temp switch and alarm.  The alarm circuit operates by completing a connection to engine ground through the temp switch.  To check it, simply ground the wire at the temp switch -- the alarm and light should go on.  If they both do not, then there's an issue with the alarm or harness or panel wiring, and need to get into it further.

BTW, did you measure what you need for the tranny dipstick sealing ring?

-kk

[Fred Koehlmann]

Breakin Away, our Dolphina is just one year younger than yours, and we had a similiar issue a couple of seasons ago. Turning the key resulted in the light and alarm to go off, but that would stop once the engine was started. Initially I was told that had to do with possibly slightly low oil levels, but our marina mechanic actually found the sensor was lose. Later that season the alarm came on and did not turn off. We were quite worried and sailed as much as we could that day and only motored in at the end (at which time it didn't alarm). The marina found the sensor to be bad and replaced it. To date, we're had no problem.

[Breakin Away]

Ken and Fred,

Thanks for your help. As always, a few additional questions and more information:

Until tonight, I had never seen the oil pressure light illuminate under any circumstances. But I went back to the boat after dark tonight to pick something up and figured it would be good to check it in the dark to be sure. I energized the console and turned the key on. The oil pressure light came on immediately, but was so dim that there is no way it would be visible in daylight. (See attached picture.) Interestingly, the buzzer alarm hesitated for a few seconds before it came on, but once on it stayed on. Is the weak illumination and/or the delayed alarm buzzer a sign of a poor electrical contact? Could I have bumped something somewhere on the motor when reaching around for the dipstick hole?

Do you think any of this has a connection to the tachometer problem, which only started malfunctioning when this alarm problem happened? Could all of these problems (buzzer, light, tach) be related to a single bad connection somewhere? Where does the tachometer connect to the motor?

From searching parts lists, it looks like the switch that you guys referenced and the sender are two different parts. I can only find the sender on the manual's parts identification page. I see a breakdown of the switch in this site's downloadable service manual, but it doesn't give the location (and the manual is for M25, not M35). Where is the switch located on the M35B? I can't find its location in any documentation.

From the M25 service manual, it looks like the switch is a spring loaded contact that opens a circuit when under suitable pressure, and the spring closes the circuit when not under pressure (hence the buzz and the light). Its hesitancy to come on at first, then its refusal to turn off, suggests it might be "gunked up" or something. Can this part be removed and cleaned? Is it possible that new, clean oil could eliminate the problem? Also, whether I try this first or just do a replacement, does the oil need to be emptied before doing the job? (Ironically, I just took a 4 day hands-on diesel troubleshooting workshop last week, and learned how to do a whole bunch of stuff. I learned to check injector timing and adjust valves, but diagnosing and fixing oil and temp sensors were not covered.)

It sounds like I need to be planning to purchase a new oil switch. Does anyone know if there is a suitable Kubota part available? Up here in Pennsylvania there are a lot more tractor stores than marine stores.

Ken - Thanks for your prior offer to help with the fiber washer. After much searching, I finally found a fiber washer for the transmission dipstack - 40 cents at a True Value store that I dropped in on about an hour from my house. It was 16 mm ID, and about 2 mm wide. I found it a few days ago, and put it in this morning. FYI, the rubber O-ring held up OK while I searched for the fiber washer.

[Breakin Away]

One last piece of information:

I read advice somewhere (maybe here, but can't remember) to drill a hole in your oil filter to drain it before removing it, but to be sure your oil filter would come off before doing this. Even though I wasn't sure I would drill a hole, I decided to check the tightness of the filter before warming up the oil.  So I got a wrench and turned it about 1/8" to verify it would come off, then I tightened it back again. Could any of this activity have damaged the oil filter seal thus lowering oil pressure? I see no signs of leakage.

Of course, the most nervewracking part is needing to warm up the oil before I pump it out, knowing an alarm is going off telling me not to run the motor. So I guess I need to convince myself that the sensor really is bad before running the motor again. And if I need to remove the oil to replace the sensor, I'm sort of up a creek.

I'd hire a mechanic, but Philly area is not a place that's known for good pleasure boat mechanics. I'm open to suggestions if someone knows a person. Meanwhile, I value any advice you guys could provide.

[KWKloeber]

Faaaagedabout and don't look at any M25 manual -- they have absolutely nothing to do with the B series engines.

Oil sw location is in the parts manual on the TechWiki. (ie, M-25XPB, M35B)
http://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Manuals

I just retitled some of the manuals and tried to upload the B series Service Manual but it's too large, and need to break it up to post it.  The schematic is attached.
 
Just don't overthink this!  First ck the switch as I said how to!  if you want to verify, screw a manual pressure gauge into the switch port (1/8" - 27 NPT thread.) 

This is one of the VERY FEW times I say, "replace" rather than "troubleshoot" (my usual rant to not start hapzardly replacing parts before nailing down the cause.) Just DON'T mess with anything else (like tach wiring) before you fix the switch -- otherwise you may nevah find the root cause of things.

No, a common connection is 99.999% NOT your problem.

Dunno what you mean by sender -- there's (unfortunately) no oil pressure gauge, so no sender, just a pressure-operated on/off switch.

Suggest you go ahead and find a new switch -- 99.999% that's your problem. (If not, then keep a spare, it doesn't have a shelf life.)

You don't need to drain oil to change the switch.

No you can't service it, replace it, about 30 buck$.

No the switch isn't a Kb -- and it's different than than the M-25 switch (1-terminal, normally closed, that 'makes' to engine ground,) the B series is a 2-terminal (normally open, isolated from the engine ground.)  It's 1/8" NPT thread, closes around 10 psi.  You MIGHT be able to match up an aftermarket (but good luck, I haven't found one yet.)


No you didn't screw up anything w/ the filter.  Don't overthink this.  99.999% you have a bad switch.

The alternator "A/C" or "Tach" terminal supplies the tach signal.  The tach counts the alternating current pulses from the alternator and does the math to convert it to engine RPM.  Your tach issue MIGHT clear up --- dunno, but there is an interconnection from the oil switch (as I said I can't adequately explain in one sitting the convoluted Westerbeke wiring.)  It's just an example of making something more difficult than it needs to be, and adding another failure point that doesn't need to be there (Wb's "better idea.")

-kk

[Stu Jackson]

<SNIP>...but there is an interconnection from the oil switch (as I said I can't adequately explain in one sitting the convoluted Westerbeke wiring.)  It's just an example of making something more difficult than it needs to be, and adding another failure point that doesn't need to be there (Wb's "better idea.")

That was a great explanation, thanks, Ken.

Breaking Away: 

1.  the oil switch and glow plug wiring is what is interconnected.  Read the "Critical Upgrade" topic which covers it in detail.

2.  Re the transmission dipstick, glad to hear you found a solution.  Could you possibly go back and close the loop on the earlier topic and report it there so when someone in the far distant future searches and finds it they have the answer?  Thanks.

[KWKloeber]

<SNIP>...but there is an interconnection from the oil switch (as I said I can't adequately explain in one sitting the convoluted Westerbeke wiring.)  It's just an example of making something more difficult than it needs to be, and adding another failure point that doesn't need to be there (Wb's "better idea.")

That was a great explanation, thanks, Ken.

Breaking Away: 

1.  the oil switch and glow plug wiring is what is interconnected.  Read the "Critical Upgrade" topic which covers it in detail.

2.  Re the transmission dipstick, glad to hear you found a solution.  Could you possibly go back and close the loop on the earlier topic and report it there so when someone in the far distant future searches and finds it they have the answer?  Thanks.

Stu,

Yes, correct (and additionally is the fuel lift pump and the alternator field excite circuit.) (I'm avoiding discussing the complete wiring so at this point AchyBreaky focuses first on the switch -- i.e., Occam's razor, as it were.)

Can we get a TrueValue SKU number and/or was 16/20mm the spec or measured w/ a caliper?

kk

[Breakin Away]

Ken,

Thanks for your patient advice, which I will follow closely. First, I'll order a new pressure switch (#037323). Next time I go to the boat I'll attempt to disconnect it and shunt the leads to see if it generates an alarm. I'm also curious to see if the warning light is any brighter with the shunted connection.

From the parts manual, it looks like the switch is in a very inaccessible place for our boats (my boat has no access panel through the head to port side of motor). Any hints on how to see and work back there? Borescope? GoPro on selfie stick?

Also, it's clear that there are elbow fittings and tubing leading from the block to the switch. Any recommended cleaning or maintenance of that while I'm back there? Should I just remove the whole assembly?

Also, the perspective of the schematic in the parts manual is very confusing. I immediately focused on the dipstick, which I swear it shows going into the port forward corner, not aft starboard. This makes it look like an Escher drawing, and really threw off my perspective. (I briefly hoped that the switch was on the starboard side, which is much more accessible.) Is this correct on the drawing? Did Catalina relocate the dipstick due to the slanted installation of the motor?

[Jim Hardesty]

I replaced the oil pressure sending unit on Shamrock, another 2001. Was easy enough.  If I remember correctly can get to it from the front under the engine and from the top port side.  Think just in front of the starter.
Jim

[Stu Jackson]

Here are photos of the M35B

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4588.msg26957.html#msg26957

[KWKloeber]

Ken,

Thanks for your patient advice, which I will follow closely. First, I'll order a new pressure switch (#037323). Next time I go to the boat

(1)
I'll attempt to disconnect it and shunt the leads to see if it generates an alarm. I'm also curious to see if the warning light is any brighter with the shunted connection.

(2)
From the parts manual, it looks like the switch is in a very inaccessible place for our boats (my boat has no access panel through the head to port side of motor). Any hints on how to see and work back there? Borescope? GoPro on selfie stick?

(3)
Also, it's clear that there are elbow fittings and tubing leading from the block to the switch. Any recommended cleaning or maintenance of that while I'm back there? Should I just remove the whole assembly?

(4)
Also, the perspective of the schematic in the parts manual is very confusing. I immediately focused on the dipstick, which I swear it shows going into the port forward corner, not aft starboard. This makes it look like an Escher drawing, and really threw off my perspective. (I briefly hoped that the switch was on the starboard side, which is much more accessible.) Is this correct on the drawing? Did Catalina relocate the dipstick due to the slanted installation of the motor?

(1)
Shorting the wire terminals *should* eliminate the alarm and light (and run the lift pump.)
Disconnecting them *should* activate the alarm/light (no lift pump, unless preheating -- i.e., glow plugs are on.)

The switch is normally open (w/ key on), causing light/alarm. 
Then (running, w/ oil pressure) it closes, no alarm/light. So, if the switch fails (or no oil pressure,) it's fail-safe and you get an alarm. 
As I said, convoluted Wb wiring.   I know that you and Stu are conspiring to get me to explain the convolutions that Wb went thru to make this difficult!  LOL

If the *shoulds* don't operate as I say, then there's a deeper problem
But 99.999% a new sw will fix it. There's no way to actually test the switch, well theoretically you can, but difficult. 
If you want to verify it's bad, then need a pressure gauge on the port for the switch to ck oil pressure. 

ONE OTHER wiring thing -- if you lose all power to your gauges, etc., don't rip the panel apart -- it's ok.  There's a resettable circuit breaker high on back, stbd side of engine.

(2)
No Joy getting to it.  Sorry, how to remove it isn't covered in this lesson..  You have to buy the entire course. LOL  

(I have a C30, no help from me.)  I don't see a place that the bracket could be relocated on-engine to be more convenient.    If I Had to deal with it on my 30, by now I'd have ripped the hose out with a vengeance, gotten a longer one, and mounted the bracket to the engine compartment.  Or, I don't know on the B series, whether, if putting a switch back onto the engine block (behind the coolant hose,) you can get to it with a socket.  I probably would have also considered that, and using the Kb switch (single pole, normally open) and doing away with the Wb's convoluted wiring (as Ron did with his repower.)  IMHO, the hose is another Wb failure point -- mine deteriorated and leaked (M-25) and so I scrapped it and relocated the switch back to the engine block.)

(3)
YBYC, bs long as things are tight and no leak, there's nothing to service.

(4)
Ahhhh, good eye.  You noticed Wb's snafu.  That's the wrong diagram, the stick shown is OEM Kb, not relocated to the stbd-back.  Wb uses stock Kb pasts diagrams and modiifies them.  They missed that one.  In the old M-25 manuals you can sometimes tell what parts Universal added (hand drawn in.)

Understand that CTY has nothing to do with the engine, it's just dropped in, bolted in place, and the trailer plugs connected to the panel harness.  They would have gotten ripped out a long time ago also -- another unnecessary failure point.

What I don't know, is on the B series, how the dipstick got to the stbd side.  On the M-25/XP I know -- (contrary to popular belief) Kb supplied it that way (enters thru a different oil pan than what's on its tractor engines.)  If you look at the Kb parts manual on the Wiki, there's yet another stick/bracket shown.   Kb has different configurations of "appurtenances" (intake manifolds, oil pans, valve covers, dipsticks, etc.,) depending on who orders the engine to install in whatnot.  Probably when Kb designed the B series blocks, it put in two ports, plugging whichever isn't used.  Kb could also have have supplied and shipped it to Wb's spec with a remote oil switch/hose -- who knows (would be cheaper for Wb to pay Kb to do it, than Wb to do it USA side.)

Let us know how it goes.
 
-kk

[Breakin Away]

I left work early today heading to New Jersey to buy the switch. I really did want to buy from a brick and mortar store, and there's a big Catalina dealer there who had the part in stock. Google Maps said it was an hour away, and I thought I was beating rush hour. I drove for 40 minutes, and Google Maps said it was still over an hour away, so I gave up, went home, and ordered it off of ebay. I tried.

On the way home I stopped at the boat, taking advantage of the rare opportunity to beat the darkness after work. I reached back under the port side of the motor to feel for the switch, and I felt the end of a wire dangling down on my wrist. I looked at it and it was the female end of the flat-blade connector with a broken tab in it. So that's the problem - the tab broke off the switch. I assume that the tab had been "hanging on by a thread", allowing the motor to run a couple final times without the alarm.

While I wait for the new switch to arrive, I'll make a shunt and try to test the alarm with shunt on and off.

Still unexplained is the malfunctioning tach, and also the very dim alarm light. But one thing at a time. I'll dig into the wiring schematic a little more to get more familiar. A quick glance at the schematic looks like an open oil switch might possibly cause some interference with the alternator voltage going to the tachometer. I'm not sure because I don't fully understand the alternator symbols in the schematic.

I was surprised that the glow plug needs to be activated for lift pump to operate - I had missed that part in the manual and critical upgrades. All summer and early fall I started up without heating the glow plugs at all. I'd just turn on the key and press the start button. The manual describes a two-button installation that requires both buttons to be pushed, but Catalina's panel only has one button and doesn't require you to turn turn the key past the detente position to engage the starter, and the schematic suggests that also.

One of my complaints is that there are so many versions of the manual out there. My hardcopy version that came with the boat is 1997 vintage, and is a different part number (#200494) from the ones online (#200550). One key difference is that my parts identification page clearly shows a sender (not a switch), and it's in a different location from where the switch is on my motor. And, infuriatingly, my 1st edition 1997 version covers models M35A and M35B, but the 2nd edition 2015 version on Westerbeke's site covers M35A but not M35B. I'm left with trying to piece things together from a hodgepodge of conflicting manuals.

[Stu Jackson]

..............................................................
.........................................................................................
I was surprised that the glow plug needs to be activated for lift pump to operate - I had missed that part in the manual and critical upgrades. All summer and early fall I started up without heating the glow plugs at all. I'd just turn on the key and press the start button. The manual describes a two-button installation that requires both buttons to be pushed, but Catalina's panel only has one button and doesn't require you to turn turn the key past the detente position to engage the starter, and the schematic suggests that also.

One of my complaints is that there are so many versions of the manual out there. My hardcopy version that came with the boat is 1997 vintage, and is a different part number (#200494) from the ones online (#200550). One key difference is that my parts identification page clearly shows a sender (not a switch), and it's in a different location from where the switch is on my motor. And, infuriatingly, my 1st edition 1997 version covers models M35A and M35B, but the 2nd edition 2015 version on Westerbeke's site covers M35A but not M35B. I'm left with trying to piece things together from a hodgepodge of conflicting manuals.

Rick,

I fully commiserate along with you.  What we have been able to do on this website over the course of the past 15 or so years is to piece together as much DATA as we can, thanks to the helpful skippers who post here and many who have contributed and posted a plethora of manuals.

There is also NO guarantee that the manual and/or wiring diagram that came with YOUR boat, EVEN WHEN NEW, reflected what may have been built in some manner!!!    The most likely culprits are the wiring diagrams and, thus, the operation of the boats.

Your example is a good one, and is reflected in the Critical Upgrade topic, here:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.msg41829.html#msg41829

The links in that post go to a very pertinent discussion called:

Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem?? M35 Engines & Fuel Pump Wiring

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3347.45.html

Reply #54 on page 4 of that topic begins to discuss the wiring to the fuel pump, how it works, issues with bleeding, and continues to end up describing exactly the issue that Dave addressed in his question.

In that long discussion, I pointed out the differences between the two quoted wiring diagrams and explained the differences between the schematic and the physical wiring diagram.  Both of them purported to be about the same boat wiring, but the darned diagrams WERE, electrically, different!!!   If you care to get into the guts of the discussion, read replies #52 and 55.

Indeed, Reply #52 discusses your point exactly about the glow plugs.

I have always suggested that the diagrams should reflect what is there, but each of us should spend the time to find out what is actually there on our boats.  And that's even before what some superb or dumba$$ PO could have done, right?    

It is wise that you are doing so, and your contributions in this thread should help others to recognize the effort that is required to do so.

I worked for forty years in the construction business, and made every effort I could to assure the owners that the "Record Documents" they received from the builders actually reflected what was installed.  It took a LOT of effort, because altogether too many engineers didn't bother to specify the requirements for those "Record Documents" in enough detail, and by the "end of the job" the engineers were, unfortunately, focused elsewhere.  I was proud that my owners got what they paid for, and not just a bunch of meaningless paperwork.

In most cases, Catalina got it right.  In some cases, we have identified and recorded on this website just what they didn't and how it affects skippers.

And new owners of "experienced" vessels may not have had the opportunity to get into these levels of details with the POs, if the PO even existed, i.e., buying from a dealer.

Thanks again for your contributions.

FWIW, Reply #66 on page 5 of that Critical Upgrade link discusses bad buzzers.

Have at it!!! 

[Breakin Away]

I've been working my way through that part of the critical upgrades, but with so many side-threads to read it's slow going in my environment of constant interruptions.

FYI, during my marine diesel class last week I started up a generic (non-Catalina) Yanmar engine for the first time, and was shocked to see that the preheat and start buttons are cascaded, which means the starter motor will not turn over unless you also are heating the glow plugs. That seems to be an even worse wiring scheme than Catalina has, and bound to lead to problems if people have a weak starter battery.