Console buzzer alarm - electrical problem?

[Breakin Away]

...
Get the Autozone switch cover gizmo I posted and save yourself a future headache.  Also make sure there's no movement transferred from the harness...

Ken, I've searched the message board for every subset and permutation of the words "Autozone oil switch cover" that you've authored, and I only find reference to a 3rd party oil switch - nothing on a cover.

I also searched the tech wiki, same problem.

Sorry, but I need you to spoon-feed me a link to your post that describes this cover.


Achy Breaky,  sure see spoon below:

It shows in a search:
http://c34.org/search_gcse/?q=kwkloeber%20switch%20autozone%20
Bottom of the page "Oil Pressure Alarm"

The downside is, as far as I know, the terminals and wires are not tinned.  It's an imperfect world....

Caveat - I don't have a 2-wire switch.  But I recommended probably a dozen people get this cover after replacing their broken or failed or corroded up switch -- none did (out of sight out of mind.)  So, I **think** (95.005%) it will fit the B series switch body/terminals.

-ken

Thanks Klobster, I'll think about it. But after being implored, over and over again, never to use untinned wire, I'm not so sure. I might just be replacing one failure point for another. Plus, the Walmart-grade butt connectors that are shown in the picture do not give the impression of any kind of quality.

As Stu has lamented many a time "use the Google search" on the main page.
Oftentimes, the forum search is not as "good" -- so try both if necessary.

I'll lament that I had spent over 20 minutes searching message board and wiki, using multiple search methods including Google advanced search. The problem was that I included "cover" in my search terms, which is the word you used here (but not in your original message). I also had taken "cover" out of the search, but the resulting search was too broad and gave dozens of false hits. With garbage in, even the best search engine will yield garbage out.

I'll scan the Universal picture showing oil sender next time I have hardcopy manual and scanner in the same building with each other.

[KWKloeber]

Yep,

I first searched using "autozone switch cover" using the main page search.
http://c34.org/search_gcse/?q=autozone%20switch%20cover%20

And it shows as #5 or #6 down on the return.  The other search was me trying different combos to have it NOT show up. 
But, I ended up with a failure.  A failed fail, as it were.

Does it show using above link? -- If not, maybe a difference in engines or browsers or who knows?   iNet stuff is above my pay grade (well, more like beyond my knowledge level.)

Onto the cover:

I see NO problem using non-tinned because you WILL CLIP the nylon Stak-On butts (right???) AND substitute adhesive-heat-sealed butts! 
Plus as I said the dielectric doesn't let moisture past the seal.  AND if you zip-tie on the boot (the smallest size), you're very good to go. 

Yeah as I said, it's an imperfect world, but -- as Obama said (was it really that many years ago?") -- Don't let something that isn't perfect stand in the way of making something better.  The boot is BETTER than what you had.

The butts shown are still tinned copper, just AHS.  FTZ, which manufactures some of the best terminals on the market, also manufactures non-AHS (like on the boot,)  So does Ancor -- Worst Marine sells them every day of the week (but I wouldn't use them.) !!
The boot is made by the same people that makes your switch -- just branded Duralast (Autozone)  the butts are because it's used on auto engines not boats.

I can understand wanting tinned wire.  SO, to be true to ones self, you best rip out YOUR ENTIRE engine harness and re-do it (I recently did did for a C30 customer) because (as described previously) on the 25XPB, 35B, 40B, and 50B -- it's SAE wire, not UL 1426 marine wire, and bare copper (not tinned), and stiff (not 1426/ABYC Type III fine-stranded.)  Stiffness is ONE reason the tabs break off the switches !!   
IPSO, another 4" of non-tinned wires going to make any difference????  No.  Absolutely not.  Not only "not," "hell not."

1/4" quick-disconnect terminals (like going to the starter solenoid) are the WORST KIND you can use on a marine engine, but Wb does.  I use them ONLY when necessary and ONLY the sealed weather-tight versions.  I also remove alternator field excite connections (51-amp Motorola/prestolite) that use the Packard 56 slide on terminals (look like fancy quick disconnects but they are NON TINNED) and substitute the sealed quick-connects. 

So, which is better? "YBYC"  I know what I'd do if it were my own engine.

Post pics of the broken sw and new install! (with boot LOL)

Cheers,
Klobster seems clunky -- KenSKI (or radio call sign "K-Man" while volunteering)
1984 C30 M25

[Breakin Away]

I just received the new oil switch. Does the red stuff on the threads function as both a sealant and thread lock, or is additional sealant needed?

Also, Westerbeke's Service Bulletin 125 warns to use a special socket to remove/replace the switch. Does anyone know of a good generic replacement that won't damage the switch? Looks like it's just a 1" hex socket, or maybe also a 12-point star.

[EDIT: To answer my last question, at the store I found an OP socket and a 1-1/16" long hex socket. Both fit identically well on the switch, with no risk of rounding or getting stuck. The OP socket has the benefit of fitting both 1" and 1-1/16" switches since it has a 1" hex socket buried deeper beneath the 1-1/16" hex socket. A 12-point socket is definitely asking for trouble. Long hex socket was $8 and OP socket was $12, so I'll decide which to get tomorrow morning on the way to the boat.]

[Breakin Away]

Another side question that might help others:

In looking over the Wells website for their oil pressure switches, it appears that their PS114 is an exact match for the physical dimensions, fail-to-open circuit, and tab design. Not sure about how its pressure range matches with Westerbeke's. Does anyone know if this $8-10 part a direct replacement for the $32 "marinized" Westerbeke version? I've already bought my Westerbeke replacement, so this is just an academic question at this point.

Online pictures show no stamping on the nut. Mine Westerbeke version is stamped 16200 and 63. Does anyone know what these represent?

[KWKloeber]

breakin - 

I have "gone round" before trying to source the identical sw of Wb's (well actually a better one, not bare copper.)  Got with Wells techs and BWD techs but here's the rub:

they cannot search products based on my spec -- if and it's a BIG if, I give them a p/n they MIGHT be able to look up the specs on it.  about 60% of the time, 40% a fail.

The auto parts sites are useless -- most the time they don't even tell you the thread, etc. 

I was on the phone w/ Wells and had a catalog open and wanted to source a 10 psi sw, and the tech said he cant do it -- I thought they MUST have a better catalog than I had -- which listed specs for about 50% of the products. They use the same one I had.  So if you call wells or BWD and can get a tech, they might be able to tell you the spec.  The Wells sw you had, is a N/O, close at 2 - 7 psi.  A little low, I think.  I want to see a 10 - 12 psi switch (so at least maybe you get some lead time on low pressure.)  Also I think the BWD switches may be better -- like one like  S4337 -- which is tinned or chrome terminals.
http://ecatalog.smpcorp.com/bwd/#/vehicles/parts/num/S4337?type=s

BUT, I don't have the spec on that sw.  note BWD has a matching boot also for that
http://ecatalog.smpcorp.com/bwd/#/vehicles/parts/num/PT5590?type=r

Tell the tech what car it goes on, and he can find it in a second -- but not by specification.  dumb !! 
And the fact that the parts sites don't list the spec is also dumb !  BUt you know how it is today at a parts store -- only what they can tap out on the keyboard.

If you want to just go trial/error,
http://www.wellsve.com/showall_ds_oil.php

http://ecatalog.smpcorp.com/bwd/#/searchparts -- in the bottom box pulldown, chose"Switch - " oil pressure light "

The thread seal on the switch is the only thing you need -- NO threadlock, you WANT it to come off later!  You don't want to crank that on very tight -- I put mine on by "hand wrench"  as tight as you can by hand (a strong hand) is usually tight enough!

Ken

[Breakin Away]

Another day at the boat, another fail. I still didn't get to change the oil or winterize the raw water system.

The hold-up was my inability to remove the faulty oil switch. As you can see in the attached picture, it is butted up so close to an adjacent plug that I could not get a socket on it. The pic was taken at the very end of the day, since multiple attempts to get the camera down there for a picture either missed the target, were out of focus, or poorly lighted. Only at the very end did I make a last desperation attempt that worked. From feeling around before I had the pic, I had thought the plug might be a coolant drain, but after inspecting the picture more closely it looks like it's a placeholder for a possible later addition (oil pressure sender?).

I tried everything to get the plug off. Like I said, the OP socket was too thick to get around the nut. I tried adjustable and crescent wrenches, but they were all too bulky and handles too long to give me any space to pull them (due to collisions with various things down there). I also reluctantly tried vice grips, using the new switch as a guide to carefully adjust their tightness to as not to damage the switch that's in place. They were still too bulky. It's a shame the socket won't fit in the gap, because it's the perfect length to put the ratchet handle right in an opening to turn. I'm debating grinding off one side of the socket to hopefully get it over the switch with enough grab to start to turn it to a point where I can spin it the rest of the way off.

Now that I'm home and can see the picture more clearly, I do see a couple other possibilities. I suppose I could take the mounting plate off and try to move the whole assembly to where I can reach it, but I really don't see how I could get down there with two wrenches and two hands to counter-rotate the fittings for removal. It's just too constrained. I'm also unsure what the red rubber cap covers, and whether that could be rotated out of the way or is a tab connection that might break if I try to rotate it.

I guess another far-out possibility is to remove the plug, confirm its thread size, and if the same as the switch just put the switch there, leaving the old one in place.

If any of you have experience with this area of the M35B motor, please let me know your suggestions. Meanwhile, I'm looking over photos and the parts manual with a fine tooth comb looking for ideas. If someone else has actually addressed this problem by replacing an M35B oil switch, please post a suggestion.

[Jon W]

Have you tried a crows foot on a short extension?

[Breakin Away]

Sorry to sound naive, but I have never used a crows foot tool, and though I'd heard the term did not even know what one is. It sounds like it could work in this case, though the 1-1/16" crescent may be a little bulky. But hopefully, it could turn it just enough to get it loosened up. I think that will be the next thing that I try, unless someone comes up with something else.

[Jon W]

Attached a picture of a crows foot. Much different than a crescent wrench.

[KWKloeber]

breakin

the bracket that holds the sw is a Wb add-on.  It consists of a machined pipe tee that is part of the bracket, with the dead plug (for a pressure sender used on Wb panels) coming off the center of the tee, and the sw coming off the bottom of the tee. 

1) you can use a vice grip or anything you can get on it to remove the sw -- you won't hurt anything -- the metal case is part of the whole switch so you can't hurt it -- you will only hurt the seal to the plastic switch body, which doesn't make any difference. 

2) both the dead plug and the sw are threaded into elbows, which are threaded into the T bracket.  They really should be installed so the two elbows are kind of perpendicular to each other.  You should be able to rotate the top elbow (w/ the plug in it) CCW so it's 90 to the switch, which should allow you to get the socket on the sw.  In conjunction you may be able to rotate the bottom elbow (w/ the sw) a little so it clears the plug a little better.  You might also grind down the socket so its a thin wall to help get it between the sw body and other elbow/plug.  It might give you enough space if you just remove the small plug itself -- not positive, I haven't tried that. 

3) when reinstalling, you would have more clearance if you change the plug to the bottom elbow, and the switch to the top elbow.  They are both 1/8 NPT.  OR find a switch with a longer body like this


4) the red is a cable boot on the cable going to the "B" terminal of the starter.  You pop it off the terminal post/nut.  But you can't (or shouldn't) rotate the connection/cable lug until the boot is pulled back and the nut/lockwasher loosened, etc.  Then the problem of getting it tightened back up.



-ken

[lucky]

Ken
Thanks again for the help,I now have oil pressure alarm
Al Landry
c-34 hull#13
Lucky

[Breakin Away]

Attached a picture of a crows foot. Much different than a crescent wrench.

Yes, you have pictured a crescent crows foot. In checking this out I discovered that there are also box crows foot, and ratcheted box crows foot tools. I realize that technically they are not crowfoot wrenches - a true crowfoot has a crescent at its end.




My reference to the crescent is to point out that that part of the tool is bulky, which might make it difficult to get over the switch with the nearby obstacles. But I have ordered one online to try it (can't find 1-1/16" in stores), and may also pivot some thing around as suggested by Ken. However, my attempts at that are limited by my ability to get a good grip on anything down there in such a remote place.

[Jon W]

What I've shown is an open end crows foot because you said there isn't room for a socket. There are box end as you've shown. If a socket won't fit, I didn't think a box end crows foot or box end wrench would fit.

I apologize if I'm stating the obvious, but for clarity there are open end wrenches, box end wrenches, and combination wrenches (one end is open and the other end is boxed). Crescent is a brand normally aligned to the generic name of adjustable wrench.

[Ron Hill]

Break : I used a socket to change out a couple of oil pressure switches on my old M25XP. So it must have been a socket I had in my tool box. 
I also change out the oil pressure switch on my new M25XPB engine which is similar to you M35BC engine with the same ? socket.

However, I reinstalled a single pole oil pressure switch (same OD), wired the lift pump to operate continuously when the key switch is ON, and wired the glow plugs to turn ON when the key is in the spring loaded position. 
It's easy to do and makes trouble shooting much easier.

The safety feature of No oil pressure and shutting off the lift pump cutting OFF fuel and having the engine quit DOESN'T work on the C34.  The higher fuel tank in a C34 will gravity feed the fuel so the engine will keep on running when there us NO oil pressure and/or lift pump. 
So might as well change the wiring and make things simpler!!!   All this is written up in the Mainsheet Tech Notes.

A few thoughts

[KWKloeber]

Welcome, Al.   So you have no temp alarm now -- just the gauge?

I have seen a hi-temp alarm switch that bolts on the exhaust manifold stud -- maybe that would be an easy alternative, and could be hooked to just a buzzer behind the panel, and not a light.

-Ken

Ken
Thanks again for the help,I now have oil pressure alarm
Al Landry
c-34 hull#13
Lucky