1987 MK 1 Electrical System Upgrade - Feedback Requested

[Stu Jackson]

When the AC charger is on and charging, won't the Echo charger perform the same role and direct some of that current to the reserve/start battery? If so, does the AC charger need to be connected to the reserve/start battery at all since the Echo charger redirects current to keep it topped off? I ask because it would allow me to remove ~ 25 feet of 4 AWG.

Yes, the echo charge works with both.  No, don't bother running the shorepower to the reserve bank.  That's what the echo charger does, for ALL single source charging sources that go to the house bank.

Any VSR will permit current to flow based on the acceptance of the battery at any given voltage.

[Jon W]

Thanks. Good and bad news. Good - less wiring and fuses, bad - lots of charger for one bank.

Jon W.

[Stu Jackson]

bad - lots of charger for one bank.

Not really.  Our 390 ah house bank, when deeply discharged, will take 75A from our Freedom 15 I/C for only a short amount of time.  It levels out quickly below 60A and then starts dropping.  I don't think it's an issue.  And anyway, you ARE charging two banks with one charger, right?  Even though the reserve bank is almost always full.  It will do what the bank demands.   

[tgsail1]

Jon- Looking at this topic, I noticed that you are running 12 GA from the echo charger forward of the forward water tank to the start battery. Since all of the reserve battery charging will now come through that wire you might want to beef it up a bit. The wire, as you have it, is fused for 20A. The Echo charger is capable of 15A. At 15 A the drop to the battery will be more than 1V(for 25 ft). While Xantrex allows 12GA, it also warns against long runs. The effect is to limit the voltage, and thus the current to the start battery making it take longer to charge. My Yandina VSR recommends 10 or 8 GA for long runs.  I think most people mount the Echo charge near the 1-2-B switch (even on it with the switch always on "house") to avoid this altogether. Not a really big deal either way, but since you are rewiring and you have fuses, the extra 5 bucks for the wire might be worth it.   BTW as far as I can tell, the Echo charge is not a VSR but a voltage sensitive "follower". A VSR would allow current to run either direction (the Yandina certainly doesn't care) . The Echo charge does not. Of course that could be as simple as VSR with an in-line diode or as complicated as a buck-boost converter with a digital charge controller (for the technically oriented)- I couldn't find a circuit diagram or even a wiring diagram for that matter.

[KWKloeber]

Have two questions -

In my setup when the engine runs, the alternator will charge the house bank and via the Echo charger will also direct some current to the reserve/start battery. When the AC charger is on and charging, won't the Echo charger perform the same role and direct some of that current to the reserve/start battery? If so, does the AC charger need to be connected to the reserve/start battery at all since the Echo charger redirects current to keep it topped off? I ask because it would allow me to remove ~ 25 feet of 4 AWG.

In what cases does the importance of being able to quickly/easily remove a fuse without creating a loose dangling wire offset the mounting convenience of the MRBF. Example - pull the fuse from the holder and wires remain connected, vs disconnect the wire to remove the MRBF.


Thanks.

Jon W.

Jon the fuse question is like red vs green delicious.  It isn't a big deal either way if you're doing maintenance and need to disconnect one fuse nut/cable, or two nuts.  You're splitting very very fine hairs here so you likely won't exactly "half them" anyway.  If the extra wiring and space of the mounted fuse block are important, then go MRBF.  If you have the space, then wiring the fuses is a one-time shot.

It's like I always say about cables, going up size is a one-time expense and incremental copper is a decent deal, so go for it -- until it elevates to the point of:
1) Spending boat bucks to replace something that is perfectly good (like the 4 ga alternator neg.) or
2) Getting becoming burdensome (dealing with extra 2/o cables, fuse block) in a tight spave.

kk

[KWKloeber]

Jon.

Note that RC says there's really no reason to have a "starting" type battery as your reserve.  That a 12v "deep cycle" works just as well or better.  That's contrary to what I was "brought up with" and always figured the dedicated batt should be a starting type.  His tests of current draw on a deep cycle during starts proves otherwise.  I believe that test is linked in the "101 electrical".

kk

[Jon W]

Thanks Ken, better to ask now.

tgsail1,
    Thanks for the comments. The owners manual for the Echo Charger says to use a 20A fuse in each line to the battery banks. If lines are extended then use 12 AWG. The Echo Charger will be mounted on a "breadboard" near the midship starboard water tank under the salon sette. From there the wire travels aft to the aft cabin where the start/reserve battery is currently planned to go. The distance is ~10-12 feet. The 1-2-B switch will be moved to the battery box ~ 6 feet away from the Echo Charger. If the wire can be connected to the #2 position on the 1-2-B switch that would make the install a lot easier, but the distance will be longer albeit with 1 AWG wire from the switch to the start/reserve battery. Is this a better solution than running direct with smaller wire?

Jon W.

[tgsail1]

Thanks Ken, better to ask now.

tgsail1,
    Thanks for the comments. The owners manual for the Echo Charger says to use a 20A fuse in each line to the battery banks. If lines are extended then use 12 AWG. The Echo Charger will be mounted on a "breadboard" near the midship starboard water tank under the salon sette. From there the wire travels aft to the aft cabin where the start/reserve battery is currently planned to go. The distance is ~10-12 feet. The 1-2-B switch will be moved to the battery box ~ 6 feet away from the Echo Charger. If the wire can be connected to the #2 position on the 1-2-B switch that would make the install a lot easier, but the distance will be longer albeit with 1 AWG wire from the switch to the start/reserve battery. Is this a better solution than running direct with smaller wire?

Jon W.

I can't see why that wouldn't work. The AO goes right to the house bank so it should charge no matter the switch position.

[Stu Jackson]

Don't know if you saw this one, Jon.

An echo charger and the 1-2-B switch:

http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Catalina_34_Electrical_System_Upgrade

It starts off with:

Now includes changes to the Echo Charger wiring that moved from the switch to the individual banks (Stu October 2009)]
NEW wiring diagram by Walt Tunnessen  March 2010 
VERY IMPORTANT MODIFICATION discussed here on the message board:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6225.0.html

[Jon W]

Thanks Stu. I did read both Jim Moe and Mark Elkins write ups, and have 8 wiring diagrams from various C34 threads or the Tech Wiki. I should have remembered I crossed this bridge. No excuse other than too much info through a fire hose.   Jon W.

[Stu Jackson]

1,,,,and have 8 wiring diagrams from various C34 threads or the Tech Wiki.

2.  I should have remembered I crossed this bridge. No excuse other than too much info through a fire hose. 

1.  Only 8?!?   

2.  Info overload, always a good thing compared to the alternative.     I'm glad I remembered that one.

[Ken Juul]

chiming in late.  One of the diagrams you downloaded is probably mine.  I have the charger and alt directly charging the house bank.  Use a BS ACR to keep the starting battery under the aft cabin charged.  I left all the 1-2-B wiring original, but added a seperate start battery off on switch in the aft cabin.  I chose to do it this way for redundency.  I normally have the start battery on and the 1-2-B in the 1 position.  This gives me start and house power with the two banks seperated.  Should either bank fail, I can still start with the house bank using the 2 or B position, or power the house with the start battery with the same switch selection.  Hope to never have to use it.  I chose to go with a dedicated start battery rather than a reserve because I was tired of loosing chart plotter/radar/radio from a momentary low voltage caused by the starter draw.  Blue Sea is a great company, first ACR failed during the first spring commissioning.  They replaced it for free and sent return postage so they could figure out why it failed.

[Jon W]

Yep I think yours is one of the many I've been looking over. Thanks for making it available.

Jon W.

[Jon W]

I have been doing the final identification of all the wires large and small gauge, where they terminate, and what type of connector.

The SmartGauge, BMV-700, and MC-614 external regulator all want a direct connection to the positive post on the house battery.

Adding in the AC charger, and bilge pumps, that can add up to 7 wires from 16 AWG to 6 AWG connecting to the one post plus the main 1 AWG. Seems like too much to stack up, if they will fit and can be tightened correctly.

Do I split the terminations between where the terminal block attaches directly to the battery post and where the MRBF fuse and the 1 AWG will be?

Thanks for the help.

Jon W.

[mainesail]

I have been doing the final identification of all the wires large and small gauge, where they terminate, and what type of connector.

The SmartGauge, BMV-700, and MC-614 external regulator all want a direct connection to the positive post on the house battery.

Adding in the AC charger, and bilge pumps, that can add up to 7 wires from 16 AWG to 6 AWG connecting to the one post plus the main 1 AWG. Seems like too much to stack up, if they will fit and can be tightened correctly.

Do I split the terminations between where the terminal block attaches directly to the battery post and where the MRBF fuse and the 1 AWG will be?

Thanks for the help.

Jon W.

Jon,

This is where an always on/charge bus, switched bus, and even volt sense bus can really be helpful. The only one of those items that really needs to be directly on the battery terminals is the Smart Gauge. The Balmar v-sense can be a short ways from the batt terminals on the neg & positive busbar provided voltage drop is minimal between the batt post and the always on/charge bus... Everything else should really be on busbars, not on the batteries. ABYC allows for a maximum of four terminals per stud or screw or terminal.

From L-to R - Always on bus, switched positive bus and negative distribution bus.