Folding Wheel & Autopilot and New & Old Rudders

[Hawk]

Thanks fellas.
Thats what I needed to hear. She sails great and with new sails even better.
I'll turn my attention back to the box full of traveller upgrade parts to be installed and leave thoughts of elliptical structures for another day.

...and Jon I have your point - not necessary - but real nice to have!

Hawk

[waterdog]

Hawk, I've ordered my new rudder from Florida.   They are building it now.  I'll let you know how it works in the thinner water up here.   

BTW, I'll have an extra rudder.   You could be the first to fit a 1990 with twin rudders.   Add twin wheels and cut away all the transom and you could have a C34 racing sled.   (Make sure to take the male enhancement supplements to allow your mast grow or you'll just be slower...)

[jkar]

Catalina will still re-use your old post/mesh if it is in OK condition.  Steps I have taken, per factory, as of last week.

1. Mark/tape the top of rudder where the epoxy stops without the plastic spacer.
2. Drop the rudder and remove all the glass and foam, get down to the mesh.
3. Inspect the SS mesh/post for pitting, if it is rusting/pitting, don't bother sending to them
4. Put a straight edge on the mesh to make sure it is not bent
5. If the above is OK, wrap and send to them via UPS.

They will then put the post/mesh in the mold and build a new rudder around it.  It is important that the tape/mark is clear so that they can line it up and not build the rudder higher then that, otherwise it isn't going back in nicely.

They will have it turned around in about a week and then truck deliver after that (mine is a fin and exceeds UPS shipping size)

Some things to think about, the post is about ~31" for a fin, so you need that below or it isn't coming out.  I am on concrete so digging isn't an option.  Luckily the cradle and blocks were about high enough, greased the yard guys to bump it up just a little more and all is good.

[Hawk]

Keep me posted when it arrives Steve.....I'll swing by for a look.
I'll think long and hard about that twin rudder option you mentioned...............
Hawk

[Ted Pounds]

Hawk : The main reason for replacing the wing keel rudder is that the boat will uncontrollably round up in winds above +15kts!  It'll round up wether you want it to or not - mainly because there isn't enough rudder in the water.
With your fin keel you already have a much deeper rudder that us with a wing.  So if you aren't having a problem with rounding up, delamination of the layup or some other problem; I'd recommend that you stick with what you have. I don't think you will notice substantial difference with a new fin elliptical rudder compared to what you now have. 

I'd save your "Boat $" for some other upgrade.  BTW, It's a "bear" drilling those holes and cutting the new rudder column to the correct length yourself.  Also with a fin rudder the boat has to be lifted higher or the hole dug deeper.  A few thoughts.

Ron (&Hawk),
I beg to differ.  There is a huge difference with the elliptical rudder on the fin too.  I replaced mine due to water intrusion.  But, after sailing with the new rudder, I think it was worth the $1500 for the added performance alone.  That's my $.02...

[Hawk]

Ted,
I think Ron's point, and even Jon's also, was that unless there is a problem with the rudder, as you had, and/or all other significant upgrades are done (see Jon above), replacing the rudder can be dropped down the priority list. Thats the way I see it, particularly given the cost and work involved in the replacement.
Thanks for the input...helpful.
Hawk

[Jon Schneider]

That was sort of my point.  But my real points were that: 1) changing to an elliptical rudder, as Ted points out, is not a trivial improvement... it has significant impact (improved) on the boat's maneuverability and comfort (in steerage); and 2) it's horse race in prioritization, though having done everything I outlined, personally, I think it's second priority in terms of sailability and speed (my two chief metrics).  As I said, however, it was the most important thing for a dock mate to do.   When I upgraded to the elliptical, I didn't think, jeez, how could I have lived without this, but I did think, wow, this is great.  When I added the ez-glide jib leads and upgraded traveler, I did wonder how I lived so long (a few years) without doing that. 

[Stu Jackson]

Kenneth,

Here's a picture of one I copied from www.catalinaowners.com.

[Ron Hill]

Guys : The elliptical rudder definitely improves handling for either the fin or wing keels. 
The main difference is that with the wing keel its an absolute MUST to stop uncontrollable roundups.
For the fin keel it improves performance and as Jon can attest, you can even reduce the diameter of the wheel (from 34 to 32 inches) and still have a controllable boat. 
I wouldn't recommend doing that wheel reduction with a wing keel. 

As jk mentioned you'll need to call Catalina, because the main problem with the early rudders (86,87,88,89,90 and maybe 91 & 92) is that the "mesh" welded to the stainless column was not stainless, but regular steel!!!!  That's why it is rusting.  The new elliptical rudders have a stainless mesh.

[jksellers2@embarqmail.com]

IT WORKS!!!
I took the idea Jack Stewart "Winddancer" provided concerning the 1" x1/8" washers as shims between the wheel and the autopilot bracket.I couldn't find the washers so I purchased a 6"x1/8" sheet of rubber gasket material, machine screws 1/4" longer than the original, and cut out shims that match the contours of the brackets where they attach to the autopilot frame, so that they're hardly noticeable. I then held my breathe when I powered up the autopilot and punched in a +10 course degree change and then a -10 course change and it worked perfectly. And the folding wheel is really great, especially when tied up at the marina. Thanks to all who responded with ideas on how to resolve this issue. 

[waterdog]

New rudder arrived today.   Ron, when you say you upgraded to eliptical are you talking about the modifications to the trailing edge which you highlighted in the projects section?   I've been following this discussion with interest.   As you suggest material aft of the post is going to make it heavier - elliptical staight or otherwise.   Yet Jon raves about the wonderful light touch and improved performance.   You guys may be talking apples and oranges.    The new rudder I received today has quite a different looking leading edge profile than the rudder I see on your write up.   It's a completely reworked mold compared to the 80's vintage rudders fore and aft - no doubt it is more "powerful" and I suspect, well balanced.   I think both you and Jon might both be right.   

I can't to wait to install and sail.   Of course that requires things like a rig.   Which reminds me, I have to go.   There's some mast prep to do before painting tomorrow...

[Steve McGill]

Steve,

Please post a pic of your new rudder.

Thanks,

Steve M.

[Ted Pounds]

Steve D.,
Do you have a wing or a fin?  Ron has a wing and I think Jon has a fin.  It makes a world of difference in what the new rudder looks like...

[Kyle Ewing]

Waterdog,

I did the same upgrade on my 1990 a couple of years ago and found the stern sits noticably higher in the water.  My old rudder was apparently so waterlogged that it lost buoyancy.  The new rudder is larger, therefore more foam and buoyancy so is lighter in the water.  Everything written about performance is true.  You'll enjoy it.  If you have a fin keel It's also 7 inches deeper so take that into account when hoisting/digging the hole for removal and installation.

I've attached a diagram I received from Catalina showing the differences.

Kyle Ewing
Donnybrook #1010
Chicago

[Kyle Ewing]

Here are some additional diagrams of old vs. new rudders.