Folding Wheel & Autopilot and New & Old Rudders

[Stu Jackson]

Stu,
Your crew takes to the lash better than mine.........
Hawk

Hawk, When I'm single handing, and reefing, there just ain't no one to beat up on.   Just don't have the kids around that you do...

[jksellers2@embarqmail.com]

Ken Sellers-Lucky Days(#1560)
I've read all your responses to my "conundurm" and I want to thank all of you very much for your excellent suggestions on how to resolve this problem. At this point I think I'll try Jack Stewart's (Windancer)suggestion and try the rubber faucet washers first and see if that does it. If not I'll go to plan B and have the machinist ( who is retired but works a little bit and is cheap by today's standards)
give it a shot this week and see what he can come up with as an easy and inexpensive fix. I'll let you know how it works out.

[Jon Schneider]

At this point I think I'll try Jack Stewart's (Windancer)suggestion and try the rubber faucet washers first and see if that does it.

I'm sure that'll work for you; it's essentially what I did, though I found that I only needed a SS washers to fill the gap.  BTW, Raymarine actually sells (or did a few years ago when I looked into it) replacement brackets that are larger.  The only problem is that they sell three different sizes of brackets in one package, so you need three packages in order to complete the set.  It's a little bit of highway robbery for one package (I think it was $15), but at three times (i.e., $45), it seemed outrageous to me.  Perhaps you could call them and get you to send you three only of the larger size brackets.  Seems ridiculous that they don't package them in single-size triplets. 

[Stu Jackson]

As I recall, Jon, you're right.  I needed to replace my wheel hub a few years ago because the grips on it had worn off.  I had done a swap with Stan O'Hoppe (hull #242) for some of his ST3000 gear when he was upgrading, as I had done earlier,  to a newer ST3000, and he gave me his new hub.  When I put it on there were three sizes of hub connectors, but not the hub itself.  Some of the U brackets were bigger and/or longer.  Being the pack rat I was I saved them for a year and then, "Mr. Clean" guy that I am, finally threw them overboard to lighten ship!    

[Hawk]

Ted/Stu,
True enough....an early reef should not be underestimated. And I'm not adverse to reefing the main. On the honeymoon 17 years ago Fleet Command and I sailed a somewhat tender 32' in the BVI's with a reef in the main for two weeks...never did shake it out. Well it blows 20 knots day and night with a tropical wave come through at 40 for good measure.
Sorry, a little off topic from the auto-pilot thread.
Hawk

[Ron Hill]

To bring the readers back to to the original question about wheel diameter I offer a few laws of Physics:

1.  The larger the wheel the more leverage !
2.  The more rudder surface behind the pivot point, the "heavier" the rudder (ref wheel pull) !
3.  Some sailors are stronger than others and the weaker ones like a "lighter" rudder ie. 1st Mate !
4.  Sail area also affects the amount of strength that it takes to move/hold the wheel !

A few thoughts.   

[Jon Schneider]

To JERK the readers back to to the original question about wheel diameter I offer a few laws of Physics:
1.  The larger the wheel the more leverage !
2.  The more rudder surface behind the pivot point, the "heavier" the rudder (ref wheel pull) !
3.  Some sailors are stronger than others and the weaker ones like a "lighter" rudder ie. 1st Mate !
4.  Sail area also affects the amount of strength that it takes to move/hold the wheel !

Ron... duh.  The point is whether or not one needs a larger wheel.  Personally, I like to feel the current, so too large a wheel can actually be a detriment to me (though I doubt there'd be a risk of that with a 42" wheel).  And I still insist that despite the fact that there may be more surface aft of the rudder shaft (it actually doesn't look that way to me, but I realize looks can be deceiving), the efficiency of the elliptical design actually requires less strength to maintain control/turn.

[Hawk]

Jon,
I have a 1990 as do you but mine is a fin keel. Is it as simple as ordering a new elliptical rudder from Catalina and replacing it for the old one...plug and play, so to speak. Or is there problems with fitting it in and the emergency tiller lining up etc, etc?

Thanks, Hawk

[Jon Schneider]

Mine's a fin keel also.  It's not super hard, but it's not plug n play.  you need to drill for the quadrant, and the stock was too long (better than the opposite).  So, there's some drilling and cutting to be done, but nothing fancy.  The bitch is digging a hole in your yard's parking lot to provide room to drop and replace the rudder.  Turns out the yard doesn't really appreciate that ;)  Who knew....

[Ron Hill]

Hawk : The main reason for replacing the wing keel rudder is that the boat will uncontrollably round up in winds above +15kts!  It'll round up wether you want it to or not - mainly because there isn't enough rudder in the water.
With your fin keel you already have a much deeper rudder that us with a wing.  So if you aren't having a problem with rounding up, delamination of the layup or some other problem; I'd recommend that you stick with what you have. I don't think you will notice substantial difference with a new fin elliptical rudder compared to what you now have. 

I'd save your "Boat $" for some other upgrade.  BTW, It's a "bear" drilling those holes and cutting the new rudder column to the correct length yourself.  Also with a fin rudder the boat has to be lifted higher or the hole dug deeper.  A few thoughts.

[Stu Jackson]

You can also send Catalina your old rudder and they match the stock, or rebuild the bottom of the old one, I forget which.  But the message here, as I see it, to you is:  you have a fin keel with a deeper rudder than the wing keel boats.  What you have is just fine (unless you think you need power steering - it's nice, but believe me it is NOT necessary).  So, reef early and often or enjoy rounding up which is about as safe as a boat can be, and find something else on the boat you can spend your $$ on - we're sure you'll be able to do just that.

[Ron Hill]

Stu is correct in mentioning that Catalina had accepted the old rudder and reused the same rudder column if it wasn't bent.  I understand that Catalina ceased that program.
However, don't take Stu's or Ron's word on that issue, call Catalina and see it they still will accept your old rudder and do an new build up!!

[Jon Schneider]

What you have is just fine (unless you think you need power steering - it's nice, but believe me it is NOT necessary).  So, reef early and often or enjoy rounding up which is about as safe as a boat can be, and find something else on the boat you can spend your $$ on - we're sure you'll be able to do just that.

Stu and Ron, one could take the argument of what's necessary to the Nth degree.  A boat is not really necessary.  Spending time and money varnishing the brightwork is not really necessary.  New sails are not necessary.  There's very little about a boat that's necessary other than enjoying it.  The new elliptical rudder upgrade on a fin keel boat makes a substantial difference.  I didn't think it would make as much difference as it did, but it's fantastic.  It's much cheaper than a new set of high-performance sails, but I'd go with new sails over a new rudder.  It's about the same price as the EZ-Glide jib leads, a rigid vang, and a traveler upgrade combined, and I'd go with them first.  It's about the same price as a decent folding prop, and I'd go with that over a new rudder.  But after those improvements, I'd absolutely list the elliptical rudder.  A fellow C34 owner and dock mate went with the rudder upgrade before any of those other enhancements.  Different strokes....

[Stu Jackson]

Jon, that was a MUCH better definition of "necessary" than mine.   Well done.  (psst...& we even didn't get into priorities )

[Jon Schneider]

Just call me "Webster" from now on ;)