Had the boat out for a nice sail. Reefed head sail and main, about 2-3 feet waves, 10-12 knots, and occasionally there was an odd creaking sound from the cockpit floor, around the emergency rudder hatch, and I could feel the vibration in my feet from the creaking.
I'm not sure why it's creaking or whether or not its dangerous to keep sailing the boat. Videos attached. One is under sail, and the other is my wife moving up and down between the helm and the emergency hatch, in the slip. Basically standing behind the helm.
What's going on, is this normal? Never heard this sound before this sail, and the sole seems to be flexing.
I read this thread and wasn't encouraged..
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,10663.msg82863.html#msg82863
https://youtube.com/shorts/gqMB4Ci4SEA?feature=share (https://youtube.com/shorts/gqMB4Ci4SEA?feature=share)
https://youtube.com/shorts/HPpn4NsM92c?feature=share (https://youtube.com/shorts/HPpn4NsM92c?feature=share)
https://youtube.com/shorts/psdAQWWWVno?feature=share (https://youtube.com/shorts/psdAQWWWVno?feature=share)
Shamrock had a rudder/steering creaking noise when I first got her. I removed the emergency steering access plate and flushed the top of the rudder post with lots of water while working the steering. There was a fair amount of dirt. The Oring on the access plate was bad so I replaced. That was 15 seasons ago, hasn't returned.
As far as the floor flex. I have no idea.
Hope that helps,
Jim
Quote from: Jim Hardesty on July 28, 2023, 03:00:06 PM
Shamrock had a rudder/steering creaking noise when I first got her. I removed the emergency steering access plate and flushed the top of the rudder post with lots of water while working the steering. There was a fair amount of dirt. The Oring on the access plate was bad so I replaced. That was 15 seasons ago, hasn't returned.
As far as the floor flex. I have no idea.
Hope that helps,
Jim
Ok. Will do.
I'm talking with Catalina now too. So far the guidance has been to check play and tolerances in rudder supports. Doesn't explain the deflection or wether or not thats normal.
The problem is it's completely new to me and I just want to know if its normal, and safe! Maybe the cockpit core is wet? I had to rebed the guard feet 3 years ago, but they leaked for a long time based on the water damage in the aft berth as well as damaged cushions. We had to replace them.
It's this vid in particular that has me worried. https://youtube.com/shorts/psdAQWWWVno?feature=share
I can recreate the sound by bouncing up and down behind the helm... that's new.
Based on the bouncing vid, it looks like there is just some "schmutz" on the rudder stock at the upper bushing causing some noise. Fiberglass does flex some so I can't say I would be immediately worried about that. I would start with the cleaning recommended above and see what comes of it.
You could always test cockpit sole with a moisture meter. While they can be inaccurate in some uses, it might give a clue if the is soft enough to cause your perceived flex.
Quote from: waughoo on July 28, 2023, 05:46:09 PM
Based on the bouncing vid, it looks like there is just some "schmutz" on the rudder stock at the upper bushing causing some noise. Fiberglass does flex some so I can't say I would be immediately worried about that. I would start with the cleaning recommended above and see what comes of it.
Dumb question. Can you just point a hose at it and rinse away? Nothing will happen putting water down the rudder shaft?
Quote from: Noah on July 28, 2023, 07:51:56 PM
You could always test cockpit sole with a moisture meter. While they can be inaccurate in some uses, it might give a clue if the is soft enough to cause your perceived flex.
I thought of that but the meters are $700+.. not sure where I would get one.
When we got back I opened up the emergency tiller, moved the helm, and checked everything. It didn't make a sound, and seemed tight.
QuoteYou could always test cockpit sole with a moisture meter. While they can be inaccurate in some uses, it might give a clue if the is soft enough to cause your perceived flex.
Quotethought of that but the meters are $700+.. not sure where I would get one.
An idea would be to drill a few quarter inch holes into the underside of the sole into the core. That would be easy to fix and may give you some idea if the core is wet or delaminated. You don't say where you are located, if it's somewhere that freezes water in the core could freeze, expand and create more problems.
Maybe a few taps with a hard plastic hammer could give you a sound test for integrity. Tap various places on the sole and compare. That's the way surveyors used to do it.
Jim
Quote from: Jim Hardesty on July 29, 2023, 04:31:13 AM
QuoteYou could always test cockpit sole with a moisture meter. While they can be inaccurate in some uses, it might give a clue if the is soft enough to cause your perceived flex.
Quotethought of that but the meters are $700+.. not sure where I would get one.
An idea would be to drill a few quarter inch holes into the underside of the sole into the core. That would be easy to fix and may give you some idea if the core is wet or delaminated. You don't say where you are located, if it's somewhere that freezes water in the core could freeze, expand and create more problems.
Maybe a few taps with a hard plastic hammer could give you a sound test for integrity. Tap various places on the sole and compare. That's the way surveyors used to do it.
Jim
Ontario Canada, so yes its on the chilly side, and yes that is also a good point.
Good idea about drilling. How do you determine if it's wet, other than dripping of course. Do you just poke around and see if it's solid?
I didn't know that about a plastic hammer. I can afford one of those! I guess you just want to hear a consistent sound, and nothing that seems 'hollow'?
Quote from: pbyrne on July 28, 2023, 09:29:53 PM
Quote from: Noah on July 28, 2023, 07:51:56 PM
You could always test cockpit sole with a moisture meter. While they can be inaccurate in some uses, it might give a clue if the is soft enough to cause your perceived flex.
I thought of that but the meters are $700+.. not sure where I would get one.
$700 is ridiculous. Because Electrophysics CT100 was the first pinless one decades ago, they became a de facto standard for marine surveyors, with an inflated price to continue production at such a low volume. There are many different ones out there now for much less, and people have tested them, including me. Many are junk (stay away from General Tools, which is a random number genarator). The best one out there was the Ryobi E49MM01, previously sold at Home Depot for $40. Years ago I had bought one at HD and returned it (unused) because I figured I didn't need it right away and could buy it again when I need it. BIG MISTAKE. About 10 years ago some odd licensing agreement happened with Lowes that caused Ryobi to stop selling their small tools at HD, and the pinless meter was not picked up by Lowes. It was not available anywhere in the US, but reportedly remained available in Canada and elsewhere. Ryobi has since started selling at HD again, but neither HD or Lowes has any model of Ryobi pinless meter. I searched for it for a few years at both locations, Amazon, and elsewhere. Nothing. Eventually I had a slight leak on a chainplate, so I wanted the Ryobi so I could check for moisture intrusion while the chainplate was pulled. (As you've surmised, measuring near any metal parts causes false positives because the meter is measuring capacitance, which is through the roof for metal parts.) I found one on ebay for $35, and I recommend it for others:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_nkw=ryobi+pinless+moisture+meter+E49MM01
This surveyor has started using the Ryobi instead of his old Electrophysics CT100. Scroll down to the bottom of the page for his comments about switching to the Ryobi:
http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/Moisture%20meter%20mythology.htm
I asked the guy to provide interpretations of his data from his Ryobi (hardwood setting) vs. the CT100. He never posted the Ryobi numbers on his website, but I captured them in a comparative table (attached).
Quote
$700 is ridiculous. Because Electrophysics CT100 was the first pinless one decades ago, they became a de facto standard for marine surveyors, with an inflated price to continue production at such a low volume. There are many different ones out there now for much less, and people have tested them, including me. Many are junk (stay away from General Tools, which is a random number genarator). The best one out there was the Ryobi E49MM01, previously sold at Home Depot for $40. Years ago I had bought one at HD and returned it (unused) because I figured I didn't need it right away and could buy it again when I need it. BIG MISTAKE. About 10 years ago some odd licensing agreement happened with Lowes that caused Ryobi to stop selling their small tools at HD, and the pinless meter was not picked up by Lowes. It was not available anywhere in the US, but reportedly remained available in Canada and elsewhere. Ryobi has since started selling at HD again, but neither HD or Lowes has any model of Ryobi pinless meter. I searched for it for a few years at both locations, Amazon, and elsewhere. Nothing. Eventually I had a slight leak on a chainplate, so I wanted the Ryobi so I could check for moisture intrusion while the chainplate was pulled. (As you've surmised, measuring near any metal parts causes false positives because the meter is measuring capacitance, which is through the roof for metal parts.) I found one on ebay for $35, and I recommend it for others:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_nkw=ryobi+pinless+moisture+meter+E49MM01
This surveyor has started using the Ryobi instead of his old Electrophysics CT100. Scroll down to the bottom of the page for his comments about switching to the Ryobi:
http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/Moisture%20meter%20mythology.htm
I asked the guy to provide interpretations of his data from his Ryobi (hardwood setting) vs. the CT100. He never posted the Ryobi numbers on his website, but I captured them in a comparative table (attached).
That's good find. I checked and they are not available in HD Canada, and Ryobi lists it as Discontinued. I'll check out ebay, I can afford a hammer AND a used moisture meter!
Thank you for the table as well, that's very helpful.
I haven't found any threads on the forum about this particular issue (if it is one). But I've found others about damaged cockpit soles due to leaking pedestals.
I hope I'm just being paranoid to be honest. Maybe the deflection is normal, and leaking pedestals are just leaking pedestals...
Quote from: pbyrne on July 29, 2023, 09:17:43 AM
I haven't found any threads on the forum about this particular issue (if it is one). But I've found others about damaged cockpit soles due to leaking pedestals.
I usually only use this site for C34-specific information. For general sailing and maintenance information, including things like moisture detection, I use Sailnet. Here are some posts of mine on the topic starting in 2010:
https://www.sailnet.com/threads/moisture-meters.62766/#post-582990
https://www.sailnet.com/threads/moisture-meters-are-not-capacitance-meters-or-radio-transceivers.81605/#post-805660
https://www.sailnet.com/threads/moisture-meter-recomendations.212833/page-2#post-3017130
https://www.sailnet.com/threads/low-cost-general-tools-moisture-meter.60824/#post-723423
Note that I mentioned using a capacitive stud finder, something that you may already have in your tool box.
Who's who on Sailnet:
TakeFive is me
boatpoker is Wallace Gouk, the surveyor whose site I linked in my prior post. Note that he started mentioning his use of the Ryobi meter around 2021, over 10 years after I posted about my tests with it.
PDQaltair is Drew Frye, who does pretty much all the testing for Practical Sailor magazine. His opinions hold a lot of weight.
Quote from: Breakin Away on July 29, 2023, 09:57:08 AM
Quote from: pbyrne on July 29, 2023, 09:17:43 AM
I haven't found any threads on the forum about this particular issue (if it is one). But I've found others about damaged cockpit soles due to leaking pedestals.
I usually only use this site for C34-specific information. For general sailing and maintenance information, including things like moisture detection, I use Sailnet. Here are some posts of mine on the topic starting in 2010:
https://www.sailnet.com/threads/moisture-meters.62766/#post-582990
https://www.sailnet.com/threads/moisture-meters-are-not-capacitance-meters-or-radio-transceivers.81605/#post-805660
https://www.sailnet.com/threads/moisture-meter-recomendations.212833/page-2#post-3017130
https://www.sailnet.com/threads/low-cost-general-tools-moisture-meter.60824/#post-723423
Note that I mentioned using a capacitive stud finder, something that you may already have in your tool box.
Who's who on Sailnet:
TakeFive is me
boatpoker is Wallace Gouk, the surveyor whose site I linked in my prior post. Note that he started mentioning his use of the Ryobi meter around 2021, over 10 years after I posted about my tests with it.
PDQaltair is Drew Frye, who does pretty much all the testing for Practical Sailor magazine. His opinions hold a lot of weight.
Ah! Thank you I'll check out Sailnet going forward as well.
I do have a HD stud finder...I see your reference to them in that thread. Does the stud finder simply read the moisture as a 'stud'? I guess it must, as that's pretty much all it does!
The Craftsman stud finder I used to have had 6 or 8 LEDs that indicated the capacitance level. It was good enough to do moisture gradients (and find studs). If you have a cheaper one with only one light it might not be as helpful.
Quote from: Breakin Away on July 29, 2023, 10:46:49 AM
The Craftsman stud finder I used to have had 6 or 8 LEDs that indicated the capacitance level. It was good enough to do moisture gradients (and find studs). If you have a cheaper one with only one light it might not be as helpful.
I see. Yeah I think mine just goes beep beep beep when you get close and solid tone on the edge of the stud. Not much of a gradient.
You would do better with a less than $100 moisture meter from Amazon.
Quote from: Jim Hardesty on July 28, 2023, 03:00:06 PM
Shamrock had a rudder/steering creaking noise when I first got her. I removed the emergency steering access plate and flushed the top of the rudder post with lots of water while working the steering. There was a fair amount of dirt. The Oring on the access plate was bad so I replaced. That was 15 seasons ago, hasn't returned.
As far as the floor flex. I have no idea.
Hope that helps,
Jim
Did it creak when simply turning the helm? It only creaks when you bounce up and down behind the helm on the cockpit floor. It doesn't creak simply by turning the helm.
pby : If your rudder "creaks" from vertical movement - then you may need a new nylon bushing the next time you are on the hard!
I have a standard transom and to get rid of my vertical movement I bought a second nylon bushing (sanded is down to make it slightly thinner) and added it over the bushing that was already there. That extra thickness took out that vertical movement!!!
A few thoughts
Quote from: Ron Hill on July 30, 2023, 12:45:17 PM
pby : If your rudder "creaks" from vertical movement - then you may need a new nylon bushing the next time you are on the hard!
I have a standard transom and to get rid of my vertical movement I bought a second nylon bushing (sanded is down to make it slightly thinner) and added it over the bushing that was already there. That extra thickness took out that vertical movement!!!
A few thoughts
The creaking is happen because the cockpit floor is moving. Is the cockpit floor supposed to move up and down?
QuoteIs the cockpit floor supposed to move up and down?
No. At least Shamrock's doesn't move enough to feel or see.
Jim
pby : NO the cockpit floor should NOT be Moving!??! Don't know what to tell you???
A thought
Quote from: Ron Hill on August 07, 2023, 02:18:08 PM
pby : NO the cockpit floor should NOT be Moving!??! Don't know what to tell you???
A thought
I've recorded the movement here. You can see the floor in the top of the vid, moving as it squeaks. If it's not normal, what is the issue? I'm worried about sailing at this point...
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/psdAQWWWVno
QuoteIf it's not normal, what is the issue? I'm worried about sailing at this point...
Defiantly not normal. Although I have never tried bouncing and measuring deflection on Shamrock, it feels solid. My 2cents would be on a delaminated core. I do believe it's safe for the rest of the season, wouldn't go much longer than that. Think long and hard if you want to spend the time, money, and effort into doing it yourself. IMHO it's not a quick easy fix to make it right. May be time to have a professional look at it to recommend repair and quote for repair. Now would be the best time for that, before everyone hits them up for winter fixes.
One question. Is your binnacle solid or does it have some wiggle, squeaks?
Your short video was great, it explains your concerns in detail in 30 seconds.
Jim
Quote from: Jim Hardesty on August 07, 2023, 05:42:13 PM
QuoteIf it's not normal, what is the issue? I'm worried about sailing at this point...
Defiantly not normal. Although I have never tried bouncing and measuring deflection on Shamrock, it feels solid. My 2cents would be on a delaminated core. I do believe it's safe for the rest of the season, wouldn't go much longer than that. Think long and hard if you want to spend the time, money, and effort into doing it yourself. IMHO it's not a quick easy fix to make it right. May be time to have a professional look at it to recommend repair and quote for repair. Now would be the best time for that, before everyone hits them up for winter fixes.
One question. Is your binnacle solid or does it have some wiggle, squeaks?
Your short video was great, it explains your concerns in detail in 30 seconds.
Jim
I'd have to check the binnacle, but from sailing her, it didn't seem to move. I did have to rebed the pedestal guard foots as they were leaking into the aft cabin. Could it have been that that caused the delamination?
I'm open to a pro, but how would you fix this yourself? I'm assuming the core behind the helm to the tiller cover is wet, and that the core needs to be repaired/epoxied.
Thanks! I try to video these things, as it's a lot easier to show than describe. Also, there may be details that mean nothing to me but something to some one watching.
pby : Your vidio definitely tells the story. Try getting ahold of Warren Tandy (Catalina Yachts @727-544-6681) and have him look / hear your vidio. He should be able to give you a diagnosis of what is happening and a possible fix. If warren can't help You might even consider contacting Gerry Douglas.
A thought
Quote from: Ron Hill on August 08, 2023, 02:37:30 PMIf warren can't help You might even consider contacting Gerry Douglas.
A thought
FYI, Gerry Douglas has retired.
Is it the cockpit sole flexing or an issue with the rudder post and associated bearings making noise, or both? I don't know. But you said "in the past there was a leak at the binnacle feet, enough to wet the cushions..." I again would suggest checking the core in the cockpit to rule out water damage to the core. If you get a high reading on a moisture meter, perhaps drill a few exploratory holes from below into the core and see if compromised. Much easier to cosmetically repair from below. If you eventually need to replace some core sections (hopefully not) there are ways to do it from below and the top. More on that "bridge" if needed, later.
Quote from: Noah on August 08, 2023, 05:48:58 PM
Is it the cockpit sole flexing or an issue with the rudder post and associated bearings making noise, or both? I don't know. But you said "in the past there was a leak at the binnacle feet, enough to wet the cushions..." I again would suggest checking the core in the cockpit to rule out water damage to the core. If you get a high reading on a moisture meter, perhaps drill a few exploratory holes from below into the core and see if compromised. Much easier to cosmetically repair from below. If you eventually need to replace some core sections (hopefully not) there are ways to do it from below and the top. More on that "bridge" if needed, later.
The vid shows it pretty clearly to be the cockpit floor moving. The floor moving does move over the rudder shaft up/down which is probably what's causing the creaking sound. Is there something suspect with the bearings? At this point I don't know, but the deflection of the cockpit floor is what's making the sound.
I have a moisture meter, Ryobi off ebay, coming, but its coming from California, to Ontario Canada via USPS/Canada Post, so it's taking the scenic route to get here.. I'll try the light hammer technique though. At least that's something.
I had a good conversation with Warren at CY, and he advised the same thing. Investigative drilling, either 1/4" bit, or small hole saw to see the core better. He also, said to just epoxy fill, as a replacement for the wood core.
I think the simplest thing to start with is rebedding the emergency tiller cover. Full removal of the SS ring, and see if the core is damaged there. If so, maybe I can do the core removal from there, or at least minimize the amount of holes I might have to drill.
Quote from: Ron Hill on August 08, 2023, 02:37:30 PM
pby : Your vidio definitely tells the story. Try getting ahold of Warren Tandy (Catalina Yachts @727-544-6681) and have him look / hear your vidio. He should be able to give you a diagnosis of what is happening and a possible fix. If warren can't help You might even consider contacting Gerry Douglas.
A thought
I spoke with Warren. Nice guy.
In a nutshell:
1) investigative drilling from below. Either 1/4" drill bit working out from the middle in a few spots. OR small hole saw in the same pattern.
2) if found to be wet, basically create a 'swiss cheese' pattern of holes with large hole saw, not close together, that will allow good access to remove wet core
3) epoxy fill cavity with putty filler(?), polyester, vinylester epoxy.
4) epoy the holes back into cockpit floor
5) sand
6) paint with gel coat from them
I summarized a bit, and I know zero about epoxy so I couldn't provide more details on that, but that's more or less what we discussed.
I'm going to start with rebedding the emergency tiller cover. That's at least an easy way to get a peek at the core without having to drill anything. If it's dry, then I guess I start drilling. If wet I'll try and scoop core from there, and move to drilling.
With respect to epoxy, I have no experience, and would appreciate a bit of guidance. The 2 brands below seem to be the most commonly mentioned, but which ones make sense for filling the cockpit floor/replacing the plug? Fast/Med/Slow...? No idea! 😀
https://www.marineoutfitters.ca/index.cfm?category=10060|10075|10696 (https://www.marineoutfitters.ca/index.cfm?category=10060%7C10075%7C10696)
https://www.marineoutfitters.ca/index.cfm?category=10060|10075|10699 (https://www.marineoutfitters.ca/index.cfm?category=10060%7C10075%7C10699)
pby : Get the SLOW "kicking (hardening)" epoxy. I say SLOW so it flows into all voids and then hardens!!
pby - This a MAJOR Fix / repair - I'd have a experienced yard do the job!!
A thought
Warren's plan looks like a great outline on how to fix. West System epoxy is good stuff, but I don't think it's what you want for this. I think something like this would be best.
https://www.amazon.com/TotalBoat-Polyester-Structural-Repair-Putty/dp/B07C9D2GFJ/ref=asc_df_B07C9D2GFJ?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80676718050797&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584276305052786&th=1&psc=1
A couple of thoughts. Expand the search till you get into dry, solid core. Need to get the surface dry and as clean as possible. Be careful if you use epoxy, a thick coating will get very hot, possibly catch fire. Unless you want to sand between layers use a non-blushing epoxy Mas is one brand.
Although I've done a few repairs, I'm by no means an expert.
Are you planning on this as a winter layup project? That would be my choice.
Jim
I'm going to second someone else's suggestion to have this done professionally. It's not the kind of thing a first-timer should do.
As already mentioned, you must be very careful with epoxy because making too much at one time, or applying it into a deep, insulated cavity, will cause overheating. At the least, you'll have bubbles from boiling in your repair. At worst, you could have a fire.
Minimizing heat buildup by adding your epoxy a little at a time, with curing in between, can be equally problematic due to amine blushing which will prevent adhesion between the layers. The net effect is like plywood where the plies have delaminated from each other - a mushy, flexible laminate, which may be just the epoxy version of what you have now.
Polyester chemistry has its own problems. To get full cure, you often need an oxygen-free environment, so you may need vacuum bags. Polyester odors are pretty severe. I have no experience with polyester, so that's all I know.
I've done a couple epoxy repairs before - one was just a few layers of cloth laminate in a small fishing boat's rotted storage cabinet, which is where I learned about overheating and adhesion problems due to amine blush. (West System has TERRIBLE amine blush - stay away from it.) The second time (on my prior sailboat) I hollowed out some rotted core and filled with about 1/2" thick blush-free epoxy, it went much better. (I used https://www.epoxyusa.com/category_s/3.htm) But it was a tiny job compared to yours, and through my "vast experience" I've learned that anything larger than this would likely be beyond my capability.
I have managed to get one of the Ryobi meters off ebay in what appears to be excellent condition.
I'll report back when I get a chance to get to the boat.
EDITED Quote
(West System has TERRIBLE amine blush - stay away from it.)
I use non blush Mas Epoxy exclusively, and the Mas ratio is more forgiving. It is compatible with the West additives.
The hardener is what leaves the wax blush-- West 207 hardener is non blush.
I oftentimes mix epoxy in a paper cup and have gone and mixed way too much and of course in a deep cup it gets hotter than you can touch. I've never come close to paper catching on fire (and wood and fiberglass both have a much higher flash point) melting of plastic and poor cure is a more significant worry.
EditOne of our C30-ers did a repair on his cockpit sole that had deteriorated/separated in spots--it wasn't a "hard"
job -- he did it from the cockpit side as he has an older boat and (I think) he painted over the repair and may gelcoat it later.
I can put you in touch w/him if desired.
Quote from: KWKloeber on August 24, 2023, 03:15:30 PM
EDITED
Quote
(West System has TERRIBLE amine blush - stay away from it.)
I use non blush Mas Epoxy exclusively, and the Mas ratio is more forgiving. It is compatible with the West additives.
The hardener is what leaves the wax blush-- West 207 hardener is non blush.
I oftentimes mix epoxy in a paper cup and have gone and mixed way too much and of course in a deep cup it gets hotter than you can touch. I've never come close to paper catching on fire (and wood and fiberglass both have a much higher flash point) melting of plastic and poor cure is a more significant worry.
Edit
One of our C30-ers did a repair on his cockpit sole that had deteriorated/separated in spots--it wasn't a "hard"
job -- he did it from the cockpit side as he has an older boat and (I think) he painted over the repair and may gelcoat it later.
I can put you in touch w/him if desired.
I knew the chemical reaction had a thermal component, but I didn't realize it was that significant. I'm comfortable doing it as long as I have clear instructions, specific product recommendations, and a step by step for filling in the core.
It's more the later that concerns me. I have no experience to rely on to help guide me with how much to mix up and put into the void to prevent any damage. If that part of the repair could be broken down into amounts and steps, I'd be willing to take a shot at it.
For the record, I'm not against having a yard do it either, but I like to evaluate whether or not I can tackle it. It's bloody expensive to have anything fixed by a yard, and this is just a hobby!
QuoteI have no experience to rely on to help guide me with how much to mix up and put into the void to prevent any damage. If that part of the repair could be broken down into amounts and steps, I'd be willing to take a shot at it.
Mixing is easy. It's the prep and getting it to stick overhead that's difficult. That's why I'd probably go with the structural paste, bondo like stuff. Starting to buy cars in Erie PA in the mid 60s I learned how to Bondo. What ever you decide to use you may try mixing some and trying it off the boat, just to see how it works. The good part is fixing it underneath it's all hidden and a simple finish is good.
The easy mixing of epoxy is done with pumps and disposable mixing cups.
https://masepoxies.com/product/calibrated-pump-set
Jim
Quote from: pbyrne on August 28, 2023, 06:36:51 AM
I knew the chemical reaction had a thermal component, but I didn't realize it was that significant. I'm comfortable doing it as long as I have clear instructions, specific product recommendations, and a step by step for filling in the core.
It's more the later that concerns me. I have no experience to rely on to help guide me with how much to mix up and put into the void to prevent any damage. If that part of the repair could be broken down into amounts and steps, I'd be willing to take a shot at it.
***
EDITED for misspellings!
Also what I
forgot to say is that below is what I would do if the cause is delamination and voids that are not soaked and punky substrate. Basically mostly whole goods but not intact anymore. If what you find is punky, like wet gypsum board then that's a different fix, in one way it can get easier to do -- depending of course -- but more involved.
***
Look this isn't rocket science so try not to over worry about it. The cure reaction isn't that much with moderate and unnoticeable using small amounts -- and even if larger it isn't going to melt your cockpit sole.
You're not doing a critical structural repair -- it's structural in a sense but not like a hull or shaft log repair. So a little learning experience is fine. There is something I find so satisfying about epoxy work (and frankly drilling and cutting fiberglass when doing well-planned mods and repairs -- very sick, I know -- It's like a satisfaction of cheating the manufacturer and doing something not designed-in.)
Anything that mostly fills voids or re-tacks together separations will be a WIN for this. Perfection is unnecessary.
I recommend Mas (which is an easy mix ratio using 3-oz plastic or paper bathroom cups to measure. I actually prefer those because they are expendable and if you have epoxy cans left over the pumps tend to clog up or drip or get gummy and I am, quite frankly, not diligent about (read: lazy and hate) cleaning containers and epoxy tools. So very easy to pour a full- or half-cup fulls and toss em into a landfill.
Mix using plastic silverware or BBQ skewers or popsicle sticks. All throwaways, no muss no fuss. Yogurt cups work well, paper cups, plastic cups, restaurant plastic doggie bag trays (an excuse to take the Admiral to Applebees or call DoorDash) -- the lower/wider the epoxy the less heat and longer pot time in the tray. Use the smooth bottom tray not textured ones like a paint tray.) The deeper, more confined volume, the greater the heat during mixing and shorter pot time. (Think of a pilsner of brew (ok I'm conflating the work with the reward -- massive heat of reaction) vs. pouring that brew into a low baking tray (no heat -- but a waste of alcohol).)
Rotating several plastic yogurt or other cups can be reused -- when the epoxy film cures, pop out the old film and reuse it. When I was doing a bunch of fairing on the keel repair (photo) I used low Rubbermaid(tm) containers so I could mix, scoop, and lay it on with a throwaway 3" drywall knife (I have a natural ability for drywall finishing too -- another mental sickness.) I popped out the cured poxy and reused trays 10 times -- and still use ones left over from 1996.
ID each individual void or separated area and mark their boundaries. USE A DRILL DEPTH STOP to drill epoxy entry and exit holes (to expel trapped air and so you know when a void is reasonably filled. The number and spacing will depend on the size being treated but work from from one fill hole to another. USE A DRILL DEPTH STOP!! and the hole needs to be so the syringe fits tight so you can force in the mix. You can work from the center to the outside exit holes for small areas. USE A DRILL DEPTH STOP!!!
I recommend West
microfibers additive. It's the best adhesive, folds into the mix easily, and is nearly as strucural as colloidal silica (which is PAIN to mix into resin/hardener.) Depending on the temps use slow hardener or if hot, keep the sole wet as a heat sink. If working from below you want it like a soft toothpaste (thick maple syrup) consistency so that it will flow but stay put until you can tape over each hole. Certainly less viscous is better to flow/saturate but harder to control. It's a compromise (imagine that, needing to compromise involving a boat.) If I were working from the top I would use unthickened mix. Experiment with how much (plastic spoons) of microfiber to add to a full cup of resin and half of hardener (4-1/2 oz total) for your consistency in your chosen container. Then check the pot time before it kicks (gels up.) That tells you how much you can mix for the temp that day depending on how quickly you can work. Use half that pot time so poxy can flow/fill and infuse before it kicks. It's not a race, no harm in not going as quickly as you possibly could. If you transfer the mixed poxy into a larger pan or mix in that pan you will increase the pot time (use it as a safety factor.)
You could work in succession for large areas by starting at holes on one end, filling until the next set of holes weep. Tape over the first hole, pump into the weep hole -- behind it is already filled, so more poxy will push to the next weep hole in that void. You just need to experiment and see with a trial or two what works best.
Immediately tape over filled holes w/ Frog or duck tape so they don't drip.
Wear safety glasses otherwise, IT WILL drip into at least one eye. Guaranteed. And no Buffett while you're doing this otherwise you'll be Parrot Heading along an acccompanyment and swallow a drip. Been there.
Buy plenty of Harbor Freight nitrile gloves and change often - you'll sweat like Mark Meadows in Georgia. Buy a dozen cotton gloves (cheap on Scamazon) you can wear them when not critical and won't sweat as much.
Now ask questions!!
PS: Everything above carries a standard 3-mile stern nav light guarantee.
If you are paranoid about tackling it I can tell you how to easily make a 2' x 2' mock-up to learn/test your skill in injecting, mix consistency, pot time, cure times, etc. but I don't think it's necessary.
Quote from: KWKloeber on August 31, 2023, 11:35:47 AM
***
EDITED for misspellings!
Also what I forgot to say is that below is what I would do if the cause is delamination and voids that are not soaked and punky substrate. Basically mostly whole goods but not intact anymore. If what you find is punky, like wet gypsum board then that's a different fix, in one way it can get easier to do -- depending of course -- but more involved.
***
Look this isn't rocket science so try not to over worry about it. The cure reaction isn't that much with moderate and unnoticeable using small amounts -- and even if larger it isn't going to melt your cockpit sole.
You're not doing a critical structural repair -- it's structural in a sense but not like a hull or shaft log repair. So a little learning experience is fine. There is something I find so satisfying about epoxy work (and frankly drilling and cutting fiberglass when doing well-planned mods and repairs -- very sick, I know -- It's like a satisfaction of cheating the manufacturer and doing something not designed-in.)
Anything that mostly fills voids or re-tacks together separations will be a WIN for this. Perfection is unnecessary.
I recommend Mas (which is an easy mix ratio using 3-oz plastic or paper bathroom cups to measure. I actually prefer those because they are expendable and if you have epoxy cans left over the pumps tend to clog up or drip or get gummy and I am, quite frankly, not diligent about (read: lazy and hate) cleaning containers and epoxy tools. So very easy to pour a full- or half-cup fulls and toss em into a landfill.
Mix using plastic silverware or BBQ skewers or popsicle sticks. All throwaways, no muss no fuss. Yogurt cups work well, paper cups, plastic cups, restaurant plastic doggie bag trays (an excuse to take the Admiral to Applebees or call DoorDash) -- the lower/wider the epoxy the less heat and longer pot time in the tray. Use the smooth bottom tray not textured ones like a paint tray.) The deeper, more confined volume, the greater the heat during mixing and shorter pot time. (Think of a pilsner of brew (ok I'm conflating the work with the reward -- massive heat of reaction) vs. pouring that brew into a low baking tray (no heat -- but a waste of alcohol).)
Rotating several plastic yogurt or other cups can be reused -- when the epoxy film cures, pop out the old film and reuse it. When I was doing a bunch of fairing on the keel repair (photo) I used low Rubbermaid(tm) containers so I could mix, scoop, and lay it on with a throwaway 3" drywall knife (I have a natural ability for drywall finishing too -- another mental sickness.) I popped out the cured poxy and reused trays 10 times -- and still use ones left over from 1996.
ID each individual void or separated area and mark their boundaries. USE A DRILL DEPTH STOP to drill epoxy entry and exit holes (to expel trapped air and so you know when a void is reasonably filled. The number and spacing will depend on the size being treated but work from from one fill hole to another. USE A DRILL DEPTH STOP!! and the hole needs to be so the syringe fits tight so you can force in the mix. You can work from the center to the outside exit holes for small areas. USE A DRILL DEPTH STOP!!!
I recommend West microfibers additive. It's the best adhesive, folds into the mix easily, and is nearly as strucural as colloidal silica (which is PAIN to mix into resin/hardener.) Depending on the temps use slow hardener or if hot, keep the sole wet as a heat sink. If working from below you want it like a soft toothpaste (thick maple syrup) consistency so that it will flow but stay put until you can tape over each hole. Certainly less viscous is better to flow/saturate but harder to control. It's a compromise (imagine that, needing to compromise involving a boat.) If I were working from the top I would use unthickened mix. Experiment with how much (plastic spoons) of microfiber to add to a full cup of resin and half of hardener (4-1/2 oz total) for your consistency in your chosen container. Then check the pot time before it kicks (gels up.) That tells you how much you can mix for the temp that day depending on how quickly you can work. Use half that pot time so poxy can flow/fill and infuse before it kicks. It's not a race, no harm in not going as quickly as you possibly could. If you transfer the mixed poxy into a larger pan or mix in that pan you will increase the pot time (use it as a safety factor.)
You could work in succession for large areas by starting at holes on one end, filling until the next set of holes weep. Tape over the first hole, pump into the weep hole -- behind it is already filled, so more poxy will push to the next weep hole in that void. You just need to experiment and see with a trial or two what works best.
Immediately tape over filled holes w/ Frog or duck tape so they don't drip.
Wear safety glasses otherwise, IT WILL drip into at least one eye. Guaranteed. And no Buffett while you're doing this otherwise you'll be Parrot Heading along an acccompanyment and swallow a drip. Been there.
Buy plenty of Harbor Freight nitrile gloves and change often - you'll sweat like Mark Meadows in Georgia. Buy a dozen cotton gloves (cheap on Scamazon) you can wear them when not critical and won't sweat as much.
Now ask questions!!
PS: Everything above carries a standard 3-mile stern nav light guarantee.
If you are paranoid about tackling it I can tell you how to easily make a 2' x 2' mock-up to learn/test your skill in injecting, mix consistency, pot time, cure times, etc. but I don't think it's necessary.
Firstly I would like to offer my profound thanks for taking the time to write that, and even more to care enough to write it at all.
I apologize for being away from this topic for so long after all the help that has been posted here; life has gotten in the way.
It turns out we were due for a marine survey for insurance purposes. So we hired one.
The full survery is pending however the early results on the cockpit sole........were cockpit sole is fine. The surveyor watched the same video and got the same explanation as here.
I have no idea what to think at this point, and I'm not ruling out doing some drilling, as quite frankly I'm flabbergasted.
Assuming there is nothing wrong with the cockpit sole, this movement is then by design, and I didn't get a 'don't worry about it, that's normal' from Catalina.
I don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth, but I'm struggling to believe this is possible normal movement, and that the noise is simply dirt in the bushing.
We are doing the winter haul out next week, and it look like to do this 'investigative' work I'd have to pull the aft tank, which I'm running out of time to do this year. Maybe I can get to the right spot through the stern lazarettes.
I have also received the Ryobi moisture meter, and I'll give the cockpit sole once over as well.
KWKloeber, I'm more than happy to hear how to setup a test rig. My garage is heated well enough that I can work in it over the coming months, and I'd like to learn how to do this work!
QuoteThe full survery is pending however the early results on the cockpit sole........were cockpit sole is fine. The surveyor watched the same video and got the same explanation as here.
I have no idea what to think at this point, and I'm not ruling out doing some drilling, as quite frankly I'm flabbergasted.
Assuming there is nothing wrong with the cockpit sole, this movement is then by design, and I didn't get a 'don't worry about it, that's normal' from Catalina.
Was having my morning coffee on Shamrock, and thought of this thread. Went aft of the wheel and bounced up and down. Shamrock is solid, all over the cockpit sole. I do agree with your surveyor that there's no immediate danger. I've sailed on a dock mates Cal that had a very bad foredeck delamination, bounced a couple of inches. Lots of leaks. He sailed that way for years. His idea of sailing was see how far over it would heal, damn with any speed. He ended up having to give the boat away and was happy he didn't have to scrap it himself.
Your boat your choice,
Jim
Quote from: pbyrne on September 17, 2023, 05:44:04 PM
\KWKloeber, I'm more than happy to hear how to setup a test rig. My garage is heated well enough that I can work in it over the coming months, and I'd like to learn how to do this work!
Sure! First I may have mentioned a C27 guy who did a mock up of his hull where he found a compromised (previously POORLY repaired) section of the chine right behind the keel. This is the thread.
https://catalina-27-270-owners-association.groups.io/g/main/topic/86767598#18481
His photos are posted as links but here they are showing the damage and his mock-up of the shape of the area to practice repairs from above and below. I thought it was a bit overkill but that's how he attacks projects that he's unfamiliar with doing.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13Kyl1SCBN5lVhRgdJUSs5H3OM2vjEkvW/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/137_enY_mHUWPcrd11ePrM9vziksiJbb3/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1H89PS5rPij6jaGhYh79zA0OHYPjPYABs/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HCgyrE6ZkXzzysbzpJzegyDfwUTP5nZw/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PSMMOXrdKykBapKyOdL-br09fOURIbLy/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PQLc5exzjCCKpWqMSnPAV_Lb39kZRtnw/view
Anyway, your cockpit sile is probably what? 1"? (someone here might know.) Buy the cheapest 1/4" (more like 5mm or 6mm actual) Lauan plywood that you can find to lay up (approximately) the thickness of the sole. What you want is a couple 2'x4' mock-ups (or whatever size you want) to test your epoxy skills.
Replicate what you think is going on, either (a) voids and missing laminations or (b) deteriorated/separated/punky laminations.
For (a), cut sections for the center layup leaving some voids between plays -- like maybe 1/2" or 1" wide strips missing between center plies. Randomize the widths/lengths and orientation/location and between which plies you place the voids. Slobber on white wood glue as you lay down the strips and tack the inside pieces and the plies together using brad nails or a stable gun w/ 5/8" staples as you lay it up the thickness. Keep the top and bottom 1/4" skins intact (no voids.)
F0r (b), lay out pieces of the lauan and hose them down -- they will delaminate as they soak thru (the glue is interior grade.) Start w/ small areas so you get a feel for how much water etc.
Or start making the lay up -- when you have it half done score areas with SHALLOW cuts (circular saw or multitool.) The idea is to facilitate water infiltrating through one or more plies while sandwiching together the mock-up and tacking plies (brads/staples) on top of what you have just wet down. Leave the areas (that are scored/wetted) unfastened so that they can swell and delaminate inside the center of the mock-up. Make sure to wet them enough to delaminate and swell inside the assembly of "your sole."
Once it's set up -- go to town.
Drilling in a pattern to find voids and mark what you find (or think you found) as far as voids to take care of. To be realistic fasten down the mock-up on supports (horses?) and work from below. If you have highly delaminated and weak areas, you may want to weight "your sole" on top and cut 2x2 supports to force the delaminated plies up/together and hold them in place while the epoxy cures.