Creaking noise from rudder

[pbyrne]

The Craftsman stud finder I used to have had 6 or 8 LEDs that indicated the capacitance level. It was good enough to do moisture gradients (and find studs). If you have a cheaper one with only one light it might not be as helpful.

I see.  Yeah I think mine just goes beep beep beep when you get close and solid tone on the edge of the stud.  Not much of a gradient.

[Noah]

You would do better with a less than $100 moisture meter from Amazon.

[pbyrne]

Shamrock had a rudder/steering creaking noise when I first got her.  I removed the emergency steering access plate and flushed the top of the rudder post with lots of water while working the steering.  There was a fair amount of dirt.  The Oring on the access plate was bad so I replaced.  That was 15 seasons ago, hasn't returned.
As far as the floor flex.  I have no idea.
Hope that helps,
Jim

Did it creak when simply turning the helm?  It only creaks when you bounce up and down behind the helm on the cockpit floor.  It doesn't creak simply by turning the helm.

[Ron Hill]

pby : If your rudder "creaks" from vertical movement - then you may need a new nylon bushing the next time you are on the hard!

I have a standard transom and to get rid of my vertical movement I bought a second nylon bushing (sanded is down to make it slightly thinner) and added it over the bushing that was already there.  That extra thickness took out that vertical movement!!!

A few thoughts

[pbyrne]

pby : If your rudder "creaks" from vertical movement - then you may need a new nylon bushing the next time you are on the hard!

I have a standard transom and to get rid of my vertical movement I bought a second nylon bushing (sanded is down to make it slightly thinner) and added it over the bushing that was already there.  That extra thickness took out that vertical movement!!!

A few thoughts

The creaking is happen because the cockpit floor is moving.  Is the cockpit floor supposed to move up and down?

[Jim Hardesty]

Is the cockpit floor supposed to move up and down?

No.  At least Shamrock's doesn't move enough to feel or see.
Jim

[Ron Hill]

pby : NO the cockpit floor should NOT be Moving!??!  Don't know what to tell you???

A thought

[pbyrne]

pby : NO the cockpit floor should NOT be Moving!??!  Don't know what to tell you???

A thought

I've recorded the movement here.  You can see the floor in the top of the vid, moving as it squeaks.  If it's not normal, what is the issue?  I'm worried about sailing at this point...

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/psdAQWWWVno

[Jim Hardesty]

If it's not normal, what is the issue?  I'm worried about sailing at this point...

Defiantly not normal.  Although I have never tried bouncing and measuring deflection on Shamrock, it feels solid.  My 2cents would be on a delaminated core.  I do believe it's safe for the rest of the season, wouldn't go much longer than that.  Think long and hard if you want to spend the time, money, and effort into doing it yourself.  IMHO it's not a quick easy fix to make it right. May be time to have a professional look at it to recommend repair and quote for repair.  Now would be the best time for that, before everyone hits them up for winter fixes.
One question.  Is your binnacle solid or does it have some wiggle, squeaks?
Your short video was great, it explains your concerns in detail in 30 seconds.
Jim

[pbyrne]

If it's not normal, what is the issue?  I'm worried about sailing at this point...

Defiantly not normal.  Although I have never tried bouncing and measuring deflection on Shamrock, it feels solid.  My 2cents would be on a delaminated core.  I do believe it's safe for the rest of the season, wouldn't go much longer than that.  Think long and hard if you want to spend the time, money, and effort into doing it yourself.  IMHO it's not a quick easy fix to make it right. May be time to have a professional look at it to recommend repair and quote for repair.  Now would be the best time for that, before everyone hits them up for winter fixes.
One question.  Is your binnacle solid or does it have some wiggle, squeaks?
Your short video was great, it explains your concerns in detail in 30 seconds.
Jim

I'd have to check the binnacle, but from sailing her, it didn't seem to move. I did have to rebed the pedestal guard foots as they were leaking into the aft cabin.  Could it have been that that caused the delamination?

I'm open to a pro, but how would you fix this yourself?  I'm assuming the core behind the helm to the tiller cover is wet, and that the core needs to be repaired/epoxied.

Thanks! I try to video these things, as it's a lot easier to show than describe.  Also, there may be details that mean nothing to me but something to some one watching.

[Ron Hill]

pby : Your vidio definitely tells the story.  Try getting ahold of Warren Tandy (Catalina Yachts @727-544-6681) and have him look / hear your vidio.  He should be able to give you a diagnosis of what is happening and a possible fix.  If warren can't help You might even consider contacting Gerry Douglas.

A thought

[Breakin Away]

If warren can't help You might even consider contacting Gerry Douglas.

A thought

FYI, Gerry Douglas has retired.

[Noah]

Is it the cockpit sole flexing or an issue with the rudder post and associated bearings making noise, or both? I don't know. But you said "in the past there was a leak at the binnacle feet, enough to wet the cushions..." I again would suggest checking the core in the cockpit to rule out water damage to the core. If you get a high reading on a moisture meter, perhaps drill a few exploratory holes from below into the core and see if compromised. Much easier to cosmetically repair from below. If you eventually need to replace some core sections (hopefully not) there are ways to do it from below and the top. More on that "bridge" if needed, later.

[pbyrne]

Is it the cockpit sole flexing or an issue with the rudder post and associated bearings making noise, or both? I don't know. But you said "in the past there was a leak at the binnacle feet, enough to wet the cushions..." I again would suggest checking the core in the cockpit to rule out water damage to the core. If you get a high reading on a moisture meter, perhaps drill a few exploratory holes from below into the core and see if compromised. Much easier to cosmetically repair from below. If you eventually need to replace some core sections (hopefully not) there are ways to do it from below and the top. More on that "bridge" if needed, later.

The vid shows it pretty clearly to be the cockpit floor moving.  The floor moving does move over the rudder shaft up/down which is probably what's causing the creaking sound.  Is there something suspect with the bearings?  At this point I don't know, but the deflection of the cockpit floor is what's making the sound.

I have a moisture meter, Ryobi off ebay, coming, but its coming from California, to Ontario Canada via USPS/Canada Post, so it's taking the scenic route to get here..  I'll try the light hammer technique though.  At least that's something.

I had a good conversation with Warren at CY, and he advised the same thing.  Investigative drilling, either 1/4" bit, or small hole saw to see the core better.  He also, said to just epoxy fill, as a replacement for the wood core.

I think the simplest thing to start with is rebedding the emergency tiller cover.  Full removal of the SS ring, and see if the core is damaged there.  If so, maybe I can do the core removal from there, or at least minimize the amount of holes I might have to drill.

[pbyrne]

pby : Your vidio definitely tells the story.  Try getting ahold of Warren Tandy (Catalina Yachts @727-544-6681) and have him look / hear your vidio.  He should be able to give you a diagnosis of what is happening and a possible fix.  If warren can't help You might even consider contacting Gerry Douglas.

A thought

I spoke with Warren.  Nice guy.

In a nutshell:

1) investigative drilling from below.  Either 1/4" drill bit working out from the middle in a few spots.  OR small hole saw in the same pattern.
2) if found to be wet, basically create a 'swiss cheese' pattern of holes with large hole saw, not close together, that will allow good access to remove wet core
3) epoxy fill cavity with putty filler(?), polyester, vinylester epoxy.
4) epoy the holes back into cockpit floor
5) sand
6) paint with gel coat from them

I summarized a bit, and I know zero about epoxy so I couldn't provide more details on that, but that's more or less what we discussed.

I'm going to start with rebedding the emergency tiller cover. That's at least an easy way to get a peek at the core without having to drill anything.  If it's dry, then I guess I start drilling.  If wet I'll try and scoop core from there, and move to drilling.