Creaking noise from rudder

[pbyrne]

With respect to epoxy, I have no experience, and would appreciate a bit of guidance.  The 2 brands below seem to be the most commonly mentioned, but which ones make sense for filling the cockpit floor/replacing the plug?  Fast/Med/Slow...? No idea! 😀

https://www.marineoutfitters.ca/index.cfm?category=10060|10075|10696
https://www.marineoutfitters.ca/index.cfm?category=10060|10075|10699

[Ron Hill]

pby : Get the SLOW "kicking (hardening)" epoxy.  I say SLOW so it flows into all voids and then hardens!!

pby - This a MAJOR Fix / repair - I'd have a experienced yard do the job!!

A thought

[Jim Hardesty]

Warren's plan looks like a great outline on how to fix.  West System epoxy is good stuff, but I don't think it's what you want for this.  I think something like this would be best.

https://www.amazon.com/TotalBoat-Polyester-Structural-Repair-Putty/dp/B07C9D2GFJ/ref=asc_df_B07C9D2GFJ?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80676718050797&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584276305052786&th=1&psc=1


A couple of thoughts. Expand the search till you get into dry, solid core.  Need to get the surface dry and as clean as possible.  Be careful if you use epoxy, a thick coating will get very hot, possibly catch fire.  Unless you want to sand between layers use a non-blushing epoxy Mas is one brand.
Although I've done a few repairs, I'm by no means an expert. 
Are you planning on this as a winter layup project?  That would be my choice.
Jim

[Breakin Away]

I'm going to second someone else's suggestion to have this done professionally. It's not the kind of thing a first-timer should do.

As already mentioned, you must be very careful with epoxy because making too much at one time, or applying it into a deep, insulated cavity, will cause overheating. At the least, you'll have bubbles from boiling in your repair. At worst, you could have a fire.

Minimizing heat buildup by adding your epoxy a little at a time, with curing in between, can be equally problematic due to amine blushing which will prevent adhesion between the layers. The net effect is like plywood where the plies have delaminated from each other - a mushy, flexible laminate, which may be just the epoxy version of what you have now.

Polyester chemistry has its own problems. To get full cure, you often need an oxygen-free environment, so you may need vacuum bags. Polyester odors are pretty severe. I have no experience with polyester, so that's all I know.

I've done a couple epoxy repairs before - one was just a few layers of cloth laminate in a small fishing boat's rotted storage cabinet, which is where I learned about overheating and adhesion problems due to amine blush. (West System has TERRIBLE amine blush - stay away from it.) The second time (on my prior sailboat) I hollowed out some rotted core and filled with about 1/2" thick blush-free epoxy, it went much better. (I used https://www.epoxyusa.com/category_s/3.htm) But it was a tiny job compared to yours, and through my "vast experience" I've learned that anything larger than this would likely be beyond my capability.

[pbyrne]

I have managed to get one of the Ryobi meters off ebay in what appears to be excellent condition.

I'll report back when I get a chance to get to the boat.

[KWKloeber]

EDITED

(West System has TERRIBLE amine blush - stay away from it.)

I use non blush Mas Epoxy exclusively, and the Mas ratio is more forgiving.  It is compatible with the West additives.
The hardener is what leaves the wax blush-- West 207 hardener is non blush.

I oftentimes mix epoxy in a paper cup and have gone and mixed way too much and of course in a deep cup it gets hotter than you can touch.  I've never come close to paper catching on fire (and wood and fiberglass both have a much higher flash point) melting of plastic and poor cure is a more significant worry.

Edit
One of our C30-ers did a repair on his cockpit sole that had deteriorated/separated in spots--it wasn't a "hard"
job -- he did it from the cockpit side as he has an older boat and (I think) he painted over the repair and may gelcoat it later.
I can put you in touch w/him if desired. 

[pbyrne]

EDITED

(West System has TERRIBLE amine blush - stay away from it.)

I use non blush Mas Epoxy exclusively, and the Mas ratio is more forgiving.  It is compatible with the West additives.
The hardener is what leaves the wax blush-- West 207 hardener is non blush.

I oftentimes mix epoxy in a paper cup and have gone and mixed way too much and of course in a deep cup it gets hotter than you can touch.  I've never come close to paper catching on fire (and wood and fiberglass both have a much higher flash point) melting of plastic and poor cure is a more significant worry.

Edit
One of our C30-ers did a repair on his cockpit sole that had deteriorated/separated in spots--it wasn't a "hard"
job -- he did it from the cockpit side as he has an older boat and (I think) he painted over the repair and may gelcoat it later.
I can put you in touch w/him if desired.

I knew the chemical reaction had a thermal component, but I didn't realize it was that significant.  I'm comfortable doing it as long as I have clear instructions, specific product recommendations, and a step by step for filling in the core.

It's more the later that concerns me.  I have no experience to rely on to help guide me with how much to mix up and put into the void to prevent any damage.  If that part of the repair could be broken down into amounts and steps, I'd be willing to take a shot at it.

For the record, I'm not against having a yard do it either, but I like to evaluate whether or not I can tackle it.  It's bloody expensive to have anything fixed by a yard, and this is just a hobby!

[Jim Hardesty]

I have no experience to rely on to help guide me with how much to mix up and put into the void to prevent any damage.  If that part of the repair could be broken down into amounts and steps, I'd be willing to take a shot at it.

Mixing is easy.  It's the prep and getting it to stick overhead that's difficult.  That's why I'd probably go with the structural paste, bondo like stuff.  Starting to buy cars in Erie PA in the mid 60s I learned how to Bondo.  What ever you decide to use you may try mixing some and trying it off the boat, just to see how it works.  The good part is fixing it underneath it's all hidden and a simple finish is good.
The easy mixing of epoxy is done with pumps and disposable mixing cups.
https://masepoxies.com/product/calibrated-pump-set
Jim

[KWKloeber]

I knew the chemical reaction had a thermal component, but I didn't realize it was that significant.  I'm comfortable doing it as long as I have clear instructions, specific product recommendations, and a step by step for filling in the core.

It's more the later that concerns me.  I have no experience to rely on to help guide me with how much to mix up and put into the void to prevent any damage.  If that part of the repair could be broken down into amounts and steps, I'd be willing to take a shot at it.

***
EDITED for misspellings!
Also what I forgot to say is that below is what I would do if the cause is delamination and voids that are not soaked and punky substrate.  Basically mostly whole goods but not intact anymore.  If what you find is punky, like wet gypsum board then that's a different fix, in one way it can get easier to do -- depending of course -- but more involved.
***


Look this isn't rocket science so try not to over worry about it.  The cure reaction isn't that much with moderate and unnoticeable using small amounts -- and even if larger it isn't going to melt your cockpit sole.

You're not doing a critical structural repair -- it's structural in a sense but not like a hull or shaft log repair.  So a little learning experience is fine.  There is something I find so satisfying about epoxy work (and frankly drilling and cutting fiberglass when doing well-planned mods and repairs -- very sick, I know -- It's like a satisfaction of cheating the manufacturer and doing something not designed-in.)
Anything that mostly fills voids or re-tacks together separations will be a WIN for this.  Perfection is unnecessary.

I recommend Mas (which is an easy mix ratio using 3-oz plastic or paper bathroom cups to measure.  I actually prefer those because they are expendable and if you have epoxy cans left over the pumps tend to clog up or drip or get gummy and I am, quite frankly, not diligent about (read: lazy and hate) cleaning containers and epoxy tools.   So very easy to pour a full- or half-cup fulls and toss em into a landfill.

Mix using plastic silverware or BBQ skewers or popsicle sticks.  All throwaways, no muss no fuss.  Yogurt cups work well, paper cups, plastic cups, restaurant plastic doggie bag trays (an excuse to take the Admiral to Applebees or call DoorDash) -- the lower/wider the epoxy the less heat and longer pot time in the tray.  Use the smooth bottom tray not textured ones like a paint tray.)  The deeper, more confined volume, the greater the heat during mixing and shorter pot time.  (Think of a pilsner of brew (ok I'm conflating the work with the reward -- massive heat of reaction) vs. pouring that brew into a low baking tray (no heat -- but a waste of alcohol).)   

Rotating several plastic yogurt or other cups can be reused -- when the epoxy film cures, pop out the old film and reuse it.  When I was doing a bunch of fairing on the keel repair (photo) I used low Rubbermaid(tm) containers so I could mix, scoop, and lay it on with a throwaway 3" drywall knife (I have a natural ability for drywall finishing too -- another mental sickness.)  I popped out the cured poxy and reused trays 10 times -- and still use ones left over from 1996.

ID each individual void or separated area and mark their boundaries.  USE A DRILL DEPTH STOP to drill epoxy entry and exit holes (to expel trapped air and so you know when a void is reasonably filled.  The number and spacing will depend on the size being treated but work from from one fill hole to another.  USE A DRILL DEPTH STOP!!  and the hole needs to be so the syringe fits tight so you can force in the mix.  You can work from the center to the outside exit holes for small areas.  USE A DRILL DEPTH STOP!!! 

I recommend West microfibers additive.  It's the best adhesive, folds into the mix easily, and is nearly as strucural as colloidal silica (which is PAIN to mix into resin/hardener.)  Depending on the temps use slow hardener or if hot, keep the sole wet as a heat sink.  If working from below you want it like a soft toothpaste (thick maple syrup) consistency so that it will flow but stay put until you can tape over each hole.   Certainly less viscous is better to flow/saturate but harder to control.  It's a compromise (imagine that, needing to compromise involving a boat.)  If I were working from the top I would use unthickened mix.  Experiment with how much (plastic spoons) of microfiber to add to a full cup of resin and half of hardener (4-1/2 oz total) for your consistency in your chosen container.  Then check the pot time before it kicks (gels up.)  That tells you how much you can mix for the temp that day depending on how quickly you can work.  Use half that pot time so poxy can flow/fill and infuse before it kicks.  It's not a race, no harm in not going as quickly as you possibly could.  If you transfer the mixed poxy into a larger pan or mix in that pan you will increase the pot time (use it as a safety factor.)

You could work in succession for large areas by starting at holes on one end, filling until the next set of holes weep.  Tape over the first hole, pump into the weep hole -- behind it is already filled, so more poxy will push to the next weep hole in that void.  You just need to experiment and see with a trial or two what works best.

Immediately tape over filled holes w/ Frog or duck tape so they don't drip.
Wear safety glasses otherwise, IT WILL drip into at least one eye.  Guaranteed.  And no Buffett while you're doing this otherwise you'll be Parrot Heading along an acccompanyment and swallow a drip.  Been there.
Buy plenty of Harbor Freight nitrile gloves and change often - you'll sweat like Mark Meadows in Georgia.  Buy a dozen cotton gloves (cheap on Scamazon) you can wear them when not critical and won't sweat as much.

Now ask questions!!

PS: Everything above carries a standard 3-mile stern nav light guarantee.

If you are paranoid about tackling it I can tell you how to easily make a 2' x 2' mock-up to learn/test your skill in injecting, mix consistency, pot time, cure times, etc. but I don't think it's necessary.

[pbyrne]

***
EDITED for misspellings!
Also what I forgot to say is that below is what I would do if the cause is delamination and voids that are not soaked and punky substrate.  Basically mostly whole goods but not intact anymore.  If what you find is punky, like wet gypsum board then that's a different fix, in one way it can get easier to do -- depending of course -- but more involved.
***


Look this isn't rocket science so try not to over worry about it.  The cure reaction isn't that much with moderate and unnoticeable using small amounts -- and even if larger it isn't going to melt your cockpit sole.

You're not doing a critical structural repair -- it's structural in a sense but not like a hull or shaft log repair.  So a little learning experience is fine.  There is something I find so satisfying about epoxy work (and frankly drilling and cutting fiberglass when doing well-planned mods and repairs -- very sick, I know -- It's like a satisfaction of cheating the manufacturer and doing something not designed-in.)
Anything that mostly fills voids or re-tacks together separations will be a WIN for this.  Perfection is unnecessary.

I recommend Mas (which is an easy mix ratio using 3-oz plastic or paper bathroom cups to measure.  I actually prefer those because they are expendable and if you have epoxy cans left over the pumps tend to clog up or drip or get gummy and I am, quite frankly, not diligent about (read: lazy and hate) cleaning containers and epoxy tools.   So very easy to pour a full- or half-cup fulls and toss em into a landfill.

Mix using plastic silverware or BBQ skewers or popsicle sticks.  All throwaways, no muss no fuss.  Yogurt cups work well, paper cups, plastic cups, restaurant plastic doggie bag trays (an excuse to take the Admiral to Applebees or call DoorDash) -- the lower/wider the epoxy the less heat and longer pot time in the tray.  Use the smooth bottom tray not textured ones like a paint tray.)  The deeper, more confined volume, the greater the heat during mixing and shorter pot time.  (Think of a pilsner of brew (ok I'm conflating the work with the reward -- massive heat of reaction) vs. pouring that brew into a low baking tray (no heat -- but a waste of alcohol).)   

Rotating several plastic yogurt or other cups can be reused -- when the epoxy film cures, pop out the old film and reuse it.  When I was doing a bunch of fairing on the keel repair (photo) I used low Rubbermaid(tm) containers so I could mix, scoop, and lay it on with a throwaway 3" drywall knife (I have a natural ability for drywall finishing too -- another mental sickness.)  I popped out the cured poxy and reused trays 10 times -- and still use ones left over from 1996.

ID each individual void or separated area and mark their boundaries.  USE A DRILL DEPTH STOP to drill epoxy entry and exit holes (to expel trapped air and so you know when a void is reasonably filled.  The number and spacing will depend on the size being treated but work from from one fill hole to another.  USE A DRILL DEPTH STOP!!  and the hole needs to be so the syringe fits tight so you can force in the mix.  You can work from the center to the outside exit holes for small areas.  USE A DRILL DEPTH STOP!!! 

I recommend West microfibers additive.  It's the best adhesive, folds into the mix easily, and is nearly as strucural as colloidal silica (which is PAIN to mix into resin/hardener.)  Depending on the temps use slow hardener or if hot, keep the sole wet as a heat sink.  If working from below you want it like a soft toothpaste (thick maple syrup) consistency so that it will flow but stay put until you can tape over each hole.   Certainly less viscous is better to flow/saturate but harder to control.  It's a compromise (imagine that, needing to compromise involving a boat.)  If I were working from the top I would use unthickened mix.  Experiment with how much (plastic spoons) of microfiber to add to a full cup of resin and half of hardener (4-1/2 oz total) for your consistency in your chosen container.  Then check the pot time before it kicks (gels up.)  That tells you how much you can mix for the temp that day depending on how quickly you can work.  Use half that pot time so poxy can flow/fill and infuse before it kicks.  It's not a race, no harm in not going as quickly as you possibly could.  If you transfer the mixed poxy into a larger pan or mix in that pan you will increase the pot time (use it as a safety factor.)

You could work in succession for large areas by starting at holes on one end, filling until the next set of holes weep.  Tape over the first hole, pump into the weep hole -- behind it is already filled, so more poxy will push to the next weep hole in that void.  You just need to experiment and see with a trial or two what works best.

Immediately tape over filled holes w/ Frog or duck tape so they don't drip.
Wear safety glasses otherwise, IT WILL drip into at least one eye.  Guaranteed.  And no Buffett while you're doing this otherwise you'll be Parrot Heading along an acccompanyment and swallow a drip.  Been there.
Buy plenty of Harbor Freight nitrile gloves and change often - you'll sweat like Mark Meadows in Georgia.  Buy a dozen cotton gloves (cheap on Scamazon) you can wear them when not critical and won't sweat as much.

Now ask questions!!

PS: Everything above carries a standard 3-mile stern nav light guarantee.

If you are paranoid about tackling it I can tell you how to easily make a 2' x 2' mock-up to learn/test your skill in injecting, mix consistency, pot time, cure times, etc. but I don't think it's necessary.

Firstly I would like to offer my profound thanks for taking the time to write that, and even more to care enough to write it at all.

I apologize for being away from this topic for so long after all the help that has been posted here; life has gotten in the way.

It turns out we were due for a marine survey for insurance purposes. So we hired one.

The full survery is pending however the early results on the cockpit sole........were cockpit sole is fine.  The surveyor watched the same video and got the same explanation as here.

I have no idea what to think at this point, and I'm not ruling out doing some drilling, as quite frankly I'm flabbergasted.

Assuming there is nothing wrong with the cockpit sole, this movement is then by design, and I didn't get a 'don't worry about it, that's normal' from Catalina.

I don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth, but I'm struggling to believe this is possible normal movement, and that the noise is simply dirt in the bushing.

We are doing the winter haul out next week, and it look like to do this 'investigative' work I'd have to pull the aft tank, which I'm running out of time to do this year.  Maybe I can get to the right spot through the stern lazarettes.

I have also received the Ryobi moisture meter, and I'll give the cockpit sole once over as well.

KWKloeber, I'm more than happy to hear how to setup a test rig.  My garage is heated well enough that I can work in it over the coming months, and I'd like to learn how to do this work!

[Jim Hardesty]

The full survery is pending however the early results on the cockpit sole........were cockpit sole is fine.  The surveyor watched the same video and got the same explanation as here.

I have no idea what to think at this point, and I'm not ruling out doing some drilling, as quite frankly I'm flabbergasted.

Assuming there is nothing wrong with the cockpit sole, this movement is then by design, and I didn't get a 'don't worry about it, that's normal' from Catalina.

Was having my morning coffee on Shamrock, and thought of this thread.  Went aft of the wheel and bounced up and down.  Shamrock is solid, all over the cockpit sole.  I do agree with your surveyor that there's no immediate danger.  I've sailed on a dock mates Cal that had a very  bad foredeck delamination, bounced a couple of inches.  Lots of leaks. He sailed that way for years.  His idea of sailing was see how far over it would heal, damn with any speed.  He ended up having to give the boat away and was happy he didn't have to scrap it himself.

Your boat your choice,
Jim   

[KWKloeber]

\KWKloeber, I'm more than happy to hear how to setup a test rig.  My garage is heated well enough that I can work in it over the coming months, and I'd like to learn how to do this work!

Sure!  First I may have mentioned a C27 guy who did a mock up of his hull where he found a compromised (previously POORLY repaired) section of the chine right behind the keel.  This is the thread. 
https://catalina-27-270-owners-association.groups.io/g/main/topic/86767598#18481

His photos are posted as links but here they are showing the damage and his mock-up of the shape of the area to practice repairs from above and below.  I thought it was a bit overkill but that's how he attacks projects that he's unfamiliar with doing.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13Kyl1SCBN5lVhRgdJUSs5H3OM2vjEkvW/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/137_enY_mHUWPcrd11ePrM9vziksiJbb3/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1H89PS5rPij6jaGhYh79zA0OHYPjPYABs/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HCgyrE6ZkXzzysbzpJzegyDfwUTP5nZw/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PSMMOXrdKykBapKyOdL-br09fOURIbLy/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PQLc5exzjCCKpWqMSnPAV_Lb39kZRtnw/view

Anyway, your cockpit sile is probably what?  1"? (someone here might know.)   Buy the cheapest 1/4" (more like 5mm or 6mm actual) Lauan plywood that you can find to lay up (approximately) the thickness of the sole.   What you want is a couple 2'x4' mock-ups (or whatever size you want) to test your epoxy skills.

Replicate what you think is going on, either (a) voids and missing laminations or (b) deteriorated/separated/punky laminations.

For (a), cut sections for the center layup leaving some voids between plays -- like maybe 1/2" or 1" wide strips missing between center plies.  Randomize the widths/lengths and orientation/location and between which plies you place the voids.  Slobber on white wood glue as you lay down the strips and tack the inside pieces and the plies together using brad nails or a stable gun w/ 5/8" staples as you lay it up the thickness.  Keep the top and bottom 1/4" skins intact (no voids.)

F0r (b), lay out pieces of the lauan and hose them down  -- they will delaminate as they soak thru (the glue is interior grade.)  Start w/ small areas so you get a feel for how much water etc. 
Or start making the lay up -- when you have it half done score areas with SHALLOW cuts (circular saw or multitool.)  The idea is to facilitate water infiltrating through one or more plies while sandwiching together the mock-up and tacking plies (brads/staples) on top of what you have just wet down.  Leave the areas (that are scored/wetted) unfastened so that they can swell and delaminate inside the center of the mock-up. Make sure to wet them enough to delaminate and swell inside the assembly of "your sole."

Once it's set up -- go to town. 
Drilling in a pattern to find voids and mark what you find (or think you found) as far as voids to take care of.   To be realistic fasten down the mock-up on supports (horses?) and work from below.  If you have highly delaminated and weak areas, you may want to weight "your sole" on top and cut 2x2 supports to force the delaminated plies up/together and hold them in place while the epoxy cures.