Creaking noise from rudder

[pbyrne]

Had the boat out for a nice sail.  Reefed head sail and main, about 2-3 feet waves, 10-12 knots, and occasionally there was an odd creaking sound from the cockpit floor, around the emergency rudder hatch, and I could feel the vibration in my feet from the creaking. 

I'm not sure why it's creaking or whether or not its dangerous to keep sailing the boat.  Videos attached.  One is under sail, and the other is my wife moving up and down between the helm and the emergency hatch, in the slip. Basically standing behind the helm.

What's going on, is this normal? Never heard this sound before this sail, and the sole seems to be flexing.

I read this thread and wasn't encouraged..
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,10663.msg82863.html#msg82863

https://youtube.com/shorts/gqMB4Ci4SEA?feature=share
https://youtube.com/shorts/HPpn4NsM92c?feature=share
https://youtube.com/shorts/psdAQWWWVno?feature=share

[Jim Hardesty]

Shamrock had a rudder/steering creaking noise when I first got her.  I removed the emergency steering access plate and flushed the top of the rudder post with lots of water while working the steering.  There was a fair amount of dirt.  The Oring on the access plate was bad so I replaced.  That was 15 seasons ago, hasn't returned.
As far as the floor flex.  I have no idea.
Hope that helps,
Jim

[pbyrne]

Shamrock had a rudder/steering creaking noise when I first got her.  I removed the emergency steering access plate and flushed the top of the rudder post with lots of water while working the steering.  There was a fair amount of dirt.  The Oring on the access plate was bad so I replaced.  That was 15 seasons ago, hasn't returned.
As far as the floor flex.  I have no idea.
Hope that helps,
Jim

Ok.  Will do.

I'm talking with Catalina now too.  So far the guidance has been to check play and tolerances in rudder supports.  Doesn't explain the deflection or wether or not thats normal.

The problem is it's completely new to me and I just want to know if its normal, and safe!  Maybe the cockpit core is wet?  I had to rebed the guard feet 3 years ago, but they leaked for a long time based on the water damage in the aft berth as well as damaged cushions.  We had to replace them.

It's this vid in particular that has me worried.  https://youtube.com/shorts/psdAQWWWVno?feature=share

I can recreate the sound by bouncing up and down behind the helm... that's new.

[waughoo]

Based on the bouncing vid, it looks like there is just some "schmutz" on the rudder stock at the upper bushing causing some noise.  Fiberglass does flex some so I can't say I would be immediately worried about that.  I would start with the cleaning recommended above and see what comes of it.

[Noah]

You could always test cockpit sole with a moisture meter. While they can be inaccurate in some uses, it might give a clue if the is soft enough to cause your perceived flex.

[pbyrne]

Based on the bouncing vid, it looks like there is just some "schmutz" on the rudder stock at the upper bushing causing some noise.  Fiberglass does flex some so I can't say I would be immediately worried about that.  I would start with the cleaning recommended above and see what comes of it.

Dumb question.  Can you just point a hose at it and rinse away?  Nothing will happen putting water down the rudder shaft? 

[pbyrne]

You could always test cockpit sole with a moisture meter. While they can be inaccurate in some uses, it might give a clue if the is soft enough to cause your perceived flex.

I thought of that but the meters are $700+.. not sure where I would get one.

[pbyrne]

When we got back I opened up the emergency tiller, moved the helm, and checked everything.  It didn't make a sound, and seemed tight.

[Jim Hardesty]

You could always test cockpit sole with a moisture meter. While they can be inaccurate in some uses, it might give a clue if the is soft enough to cause your perceived flex.

thought of that but the meters are $700+.. not sure where I would get one.

An idea would be to drill a few quarter inch holes into the underside of the sole into the core.  That would be easy to fix and may give you some idea if the core is wet or delaminated.  You don't say where you are located, if it's somewhere that freezes water in the core could freeze, expand and create more problems. 
Maybe a few taps with a hard plastic hammer could give you a sound test for integrity.  Tap various places on the sole and compare.  That's the way surveyors used to do it.
Jim

[pbyrne]

You could always test cockpit sole with a moisture meter. While they can be inaccurate in some uses, it might give a clue if the is soft enough to cause your perceived flex.

thought of that but the meters are $700+.. not sure where I would get one.

An idea would be to drill a few quarter inch holes into the underside of the sole into the core.  That would be easy to fix and may give you some idea if the core is wet or delaminated.  You don't say where you are located, if it's somewhere that freezes water in the core could freeze, expand and create more problems. 
Maybe a few taps with a hard plastic hammer could give you a sound test for integrity.  Tap various places on the sole and compare.  That's the way surveyors used to do it.
Jim

Ontario Canada, so yes its on the chilly side, and yes that is also a good point.

Good idea about drilling.  How do you determine if it's wet, other than dripping of course.  Do you just poke around and see if it's solid?

I didn't know that about a plastic hammer.  I can afford one of those!  I guess you just want to hear a consistent sound, and nothing that seems 'hollow'?

[Breakin Away]

You could always test cockpit sole with a moisture meter. While they can be inaccurate in some uses, it might give a clue if the is soft enough to cause your perceived flex.

I thought of that but the meters are $700+.. not sure where I would get one.

$700 is ridiculous. Because Electrophysics CT100 was the first pinless one decades ago, they became a de facto standard for marine surveyors, with an inflated price to continue production at such a low volume. There are many different ones out there now for much less, and people have tested them, including me. Many are junk (stay away from General Tools, which is a random number genarator). The best one out there was the Ryobi E49MM01, previously sold at Home Depot for $40. Years ago I had bought one at HD and returned it (unused) because I figured I didn't need it right away and could buy it again when I need it. BIG MISTAKE. About 10 years ago some odd licensing agreement happened with Lowes that caused Ryobi to stop selling their small tools at HD, and the pinless meter was not picked up by Lowes. It was not available anywhere in the US, but reportedly remained available in Canada and elsewhere. Ryobi has since started selling at HD again, but neither HD or Lowes has any model of Ryobi pinless meter. I searched for it for a few years at both locations, Amazon, and elsewhere. Nothing. Eventually I had a slight leak on a chainplate, so I wanted the Ryobi so I could check for moisture intrusion while the chainplate was pulled. (As you've surmised, measuring near any metal parts causes false positives because the meter is measuring capacitance, which is through the roof for metal parts.) I found one on ebay for $35, and I recommend it for others:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_nkw=ryobi+pinless+moisture+meter+E49MM01

This surveyor has started using the Ryobi instead of his old Electrophysics CT100. Scroll down to the bottom of the page for his comments about switching to the Ryobi:
http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/Moisture%20meter%20mythology.htm

I asked the guy to provide interpretations of his data from his Ryobi (hardwood setting) vs. the CT100. He never posted the Ryobi numbers on his website, but I captured them in a comparative table (attached).

[pbyrne]

$700 is ridiculous. Because Electrophysics CT100 was the first pinless one decades ago, they became a de facto standard for marine surveyors, with an inflated price to continue production at such a low volume. There are many different ones out there now for much less, and people have tested them, including me. Many are junk (stay away from General Tools, which is a random number genarator). The best one out there was the Ryobi E49MM01, previously sold at Home Depot for $40. Years ago I had bought one at HD and returned it (unused) because I figured I didn't need it right away and could buy it again when I need it. BIG MISTAKE. About 10 years ago some odd licensing agreement happened with Lowes that caused Ryobi to stop selling their small tools at HD, and the pinless meter was not picked up by Lowes. It was not available anywhere in the US, but reportedly remained available in Canada and elsewhere. Ryobi has since started selling at HD again, but neither HD or Lowes has any model of Ryobi pinless meter. I searched for it for a few years at both locations, Amazon, and elsewhere. Nothing. Eventually I had a slight leak on a chainplate, so I wanted the Ryobi so I could check for moisture intrusion while the chainplate was pulled. (As you've surmised, measuring near any metal parts causes false positives because the meter is measuring capacitance, which is through the roof for metal parts.) I found one on ebay for $35, and I recommend it for others:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_nkw=ryobi+pinless+moisture+meter+E49MM01

This surveyor has started using the Ryobi instead of his old Electrophysics CT100. Scroll down to the bottom of the page for his comments about switching to the Ryobi:
http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/Moisture%20meter%20mythology.htm

I asked the guy to provide interpretations of his data from his Ryobi (hardwood setting) vs. the CT100. He never posted the Ryobi numbers on his website, but I captured them in a comparative table (attached).

That's good find.  I checked and they are not available in HD Canada, and Ryobi lists it as Discontinued.  I'll check out ebay, I can afford a hammer AND a used moisture meter!

Thank you for the table as well, that's very helpful.

I haven't found any threads on the forum about this particular issue (if it is one).  But I've found others about damaged cockpit soles due to leaking pedestals.

I hope I'm just being paranoid to be honest.  Maybe the deflection is normal, and leaking pedestals are just leaking pedestals...

[Breakin Away]

I haven't found any threads on the forum about this particular issue (if it is one).  But I've found others about damaged cockpit soles due to leaking pedestals.

I usually only use this site for C34-specific information. For general sailing and maintenance information, including things like moisture detection, I use Sailnet. Here are some posts of mine on the topic starting in 2010:

https://www.sailnet.com/threads/moisture-meters.62766/#post-582990
https://www.sailnet.com/threads/moisture-meters-are-not-capacitance-meters-or-radio-transceivers.81605/#post-805660
https://www.sailnet.com/threads/moisture-meter-recomendations.212833/page-2#post-3017130
https://www.sailnet.com/threads/low-cost-general-tools-moisture-meter.60824/#post-723423

Note that I mentioned using a capacitive stud finder, something that you may already have in your tool box.

Who's who on Sailnet:
TakeFive is me
boatpoker is Wallace Gouk, the surveyor whose site I linked in my prior post. Note that he started mentioning his use of the Ryobi meter around 2021, over 10 years after I posted about my tests with it.
PDQaltair is Drew Frye, who does pretty much all the testing for Practical Sailor magazine. His opinions hold a lot of weight.

[pbyrne]

I haven't found any threads on the forum about this particular issue (if it is one).  But I've found others about damaged cockpit soles due to leaking pedestals.

I usually only use this site for C34-specific information. For general sailing and maintenance information, including things like moisture detection, I use Sailnet. Here are some posts of mine on the topic starting in 2010:

https://www.sailnet.com/threads/moisture-meters.62766/#post-582990
https://www.sailnet.com/threads/moisture-meters-are-not-capacitance-meters-or-radio-transceivers.81605/#post-805660
https://www.sailnet.com/threads/moisture-meter-recomendations.212833/page-2#post-3017130
https://www.sailnet.com/threads/low-cost-general-tools-moisture-meter.60824/#post-723423

Note that I mentioned using a capacitive stud finder, something that you may already have in your tool box.

Who's who on Sailnet:
TakeFive is me
boatpoker is Wallace Gouk, the surveyor whose site I linked in my prior post. Note that he started mentioning his use of the Ryobi meter around 2021, over 10 years after I posted about my tests with it.
PDQaltair is Drew Frye, who does pretty much all the testing for Practical Sailor magazine. His opinions hold a lot of weight.

Ah! Thank you I'll check out Sailnet going forward as well.

I do have a HD stud finder...I see your reference to them in that thread.  Does the stud finder simply read the moisture as a 'stud'?  I guess it must, as that's pretty much all it does!

[Breakin Away]

The Craftsman stud finder I used to have had 6 or 8 LEDs that indicated the capacitance level. It was good enough to do moisture gradients (and find studs). If you have a cheaper one with only one light it might not be as helpful.