Electrical mystery - I lost shore power while installing a new stereo - 1986 C34

[Ken Juul]

Xantrex is probably right, if there are internal fuses that is probably the problem.

I agree Stu, wire nuts should not be used on a boat.  However the marine sections of both the Freedom 20 and the Freedom Combi instructions say to use the included wire nuts or if desired butt connectors (not supplied) to connect the AC in and out cables. 

Perseverance, while you are checking the fuse, if you do have wire nuts, recommend you change to a more permanent (butt connectors or solder) connection.

[Dave Anderson]

Ken-
Thanks for the advice about the connections. I will make sure to eliminate the wingnuts if they are present.

[Ralph Masters]

If you use wire nuts any where on a boat, you MUST tape them to prevent them from vibrating loose and breaking connection. A properly crimped butt connector with insulation is the perfered method of joining wires.  And never put a butt joint in then pull the wire through an inaccessible location so you end up with a blind butt joint.

Ralph

[Ron Hill]

Don't use wire nuts on a boat to hold a connection together especially a 3 wire connection.  I'd solder the wires together and then use the wire nut as a "protector" with it filled with clear caulk.

Somewhat non standard, but a thought.
   

Something + on the electrical panel was touched by that stereo case!!!

[Dave Anderson]

If you use wire nuts any where on a boat, you MUST tape them to prevent them from vibrating loose and breaking connection. A properly crimped butt connector with insulation is the preferred method of joining wires.  And never put a butt joint in then pull the wire through an inaccessible location so you end up with a blind butt joint.

Ralph

I will put butt joints in if the wire nuts are used. I don't want to get down into the V-berth cavity any more that is absolutely necessary!

[Ron Hill]

Per : I don't like butt joints.  
What I do instead is to twist the 2 wires together, then solder them for the best electrical conductivity and run a sleeve of Anchor heat shrink over that soldered joint.

The reason I say Anchor heat shrink is because they have a substance in the heat shrink inside that melts when shrunk, and seals all air and moisture out of that joint.  
You CAN pull that wire thru and not have to worry about it coming apart!!
A thought

[Dave Anderson]

Ron -

I have never tried that but it sounds like a good solution. I will give that a try. Thanks for all your helpful suggestions.

Dave

[Mark Elkin]

Last year, I installed a new combination Charger/Inverter after the old charger died.  (Full details coming to a Projects Wiki page near you soon.)

When wiring the AC side, I did use butt joints and then "glue filled" heat shrink tubing over the joints.  Here's a couple of pictures.

[Dave Anderson]

Thanks Mark for the photos of the butt joints. That appears to be another great solution.

[Dave Anderson]

Problem Solved! Like all problems that are solved, the solution is quite simple. Here is what happened to cause the problem. The stereo flopping down and hitting the control panel did turn off the AC. It actually must have hit the AC Master switch to the off position (stop laughing - it's not funny!). I thought that was a polarity switch to reverse polarity if the power was connected wrong. I actually did move switch the AC switch back on as soon as it happened but it did not fix the problem. Yesterday, with my cool new "no contact AC voltage tester" I did what Stu suggested. For those of you that have never used such a device - it costs about $12 and can sense AC voltage from 60 to 600 volts from the outside of the wire casing - no need to contact the bare wires. Using this tester I checked the power from the shore power inlet finding that I had power to the romex connected to the inlet. I then traced the romex finding that I had power all the way to the panel where the "normal polarity" lights are. From there I saw that a wire went from that to what I thought was the polarity switch - power was going to that. Power was not present on the other side of the switch - so, I turned on the switch and voila - I had power. I tested one of the AC outlets - and power was back on. I plugged in a light and that worked. So - I showed my wife what a genius I was (she sometimes needs convincing). I showed her that that light now worked. I turned off the AC Master switch and off course the light went off. I turned the master switch on again and the light did NOT come on. I unplugged the light, turned the master switch off and then on again - I could hear a click at the inverter. I then plugged in the light and it worked again. So - apparently, if you turn off the master switch with the inverter that I have, you have to turn off all AC devices before turning the switch on again. Thanks everyone for all of your help. I wish the solution did not make me look quite so foolish - but I am just glad it is solved and that I did not get as far as removing the inverter from my v-berth. Case closed!

[scotty]

Good work, Dave.  I've had many similar "fixes" myself.  It always reminds me of what my Dad told me - "Don't complain about good luck or easy solutions".  Sounds like you're back in buisness for about $12.  For a boat repair, I call that pretty darn good!

[Mark Elkin]

So - apparently, if you turn off the master switch with the inverter that I have, you have to turn off all AC devices before turning the switch on again.

Curious....

What model inverter do you have?

Honestly I've never heard of an inverter that required output side ("the load") to be disconnected before it would start working when input side was (re)connected.  But I know from personal experience that some inverters DO have several types of circuit protections. 

Let's take the Magnum inverter/Charger I have on Y.Rose is an example:
    My inverter/charger has a fixed delay of approximately 30 seconds after the AC input ("the line") is switched on before it will close the internal "transfer relay" and send the line current to the load. 
    Could that be true for your inverter as well?  Hypothetically, the scenario was.....  You reconnected the inverter and nothing came out.  (Your wife was watching and your genius-hood was at risk.  )   So after just 10 or 20 seconds, you removed the loads from the output side.  Then the inverter delay period expired and enabled the AC output.  And when you reconnected the loads and it all worked.  It would appear as if your statement above as the answer, but actually patience was the real solution.

The real behavior of your inverter could be just as you say, that the loads must be disconnected before it will enable the output.  Or maybe it is like my inverter, there is a fixed delay.  Or maybe some other explanation; for example, it may sense how much load is on the output (using a trickle or current pulse) and won't turn on if the load is too high. 

What does your inverter's owners manual say?

Again, what you describe just does not match with my experience.  And my experience also says, when something is acting strange, it is then time to RTFM!   

[Stu Jackson]

What model inverter do you have?...Or maybe it is like my inverter, there is a fixed delay.  Or maybe some other explanation; for example, it may sense how much load is on the output (using a trickle or current pulse) and won't turn on if the load is too high.  

What does your inverter's owners manual say?

Again, what you describe just does not match with my experience.  And my experience also says, when something is acting strange, it is then time to RTFM!  

Mark,

Good points.  Dave has a Freedom 10 (see first post on this topic).  There is, indeed, a minimum threshold that is preset as a "default" on this unit for turning on the A.C. power, although there is no delay on the Freedom units, the transfer switch is essentially instantaneous.  Dave may want to look into the dip switch settings on his remote control panel, 'cuz what could be happening is that there was not enough load to trigger the inverter to come on.  I agree, but he's been RTFM all along.

Stu

From the Freedom manual:

Inverter Idle Circuit
The idle circuit reduces battery power
consumption when no AC load is present.
Response from idle is instantaneous. When
using a Freedom or Link remote control panel
the idle threshold is adjustable. The unit does
not produce 120 volts when in idle. An idle
pulse is sent out approximately twice a second
to see if a load is present. To bring the unit out
of the idle condition, apply a load larger than
the idle set point.

From the Link 2000 manual (I know Dave doesn't have one, but the concept is the same): 

The default value is four watts.  This means that it takes four watts of A.C. load to turn the inverter on from its idle power mode.r idle current is about 0.25 A.  Range is 0W, 4W, 6W or 15W.

[Mark Elkin]

You are right Stu.  I didn't go back to the beginning of the thread where he says it is a Freedom 10.  I did, though, re-read where Dave described it as a combination charger/inverter. 

... there is no delay on the Freedom units, the transfer switch is essentially instantaneous.  ... there was not enough load to trigger the inverter to come on. 

What you just said about minimum load only seems to apply to the "inverter mode" scenario.  (FYI, my Magnum inverter/charger has same capability, so I took that into account already.) 

I unplugged the light, turned the master switch off and then on again - I could hear a click at the inverter. I then plugged in the light and it worked again.

In the last scenario Dave described (i.e. the demo for his wife), the shore AC was present.  He had a load connected and was still not getting AC power to the loads.  He only got power after disconnecting the loads.  This is opposite of what the load sensing circuitry should be doing.  And it should not apply to the AC transfer mode anyway, according to Stu.

I think the real cause is yet to be explained.  But if Dave is happy with the way the AC works now, then I'm happy to just let this discussion be too.

[Dave Anderson]

I think the real cause is yet to be explained.  But if Dave is happy with the way the AC works now, then I'm happy to just let this discussion be too.
[/quote]

Well I was happy until I read the latest posts. Hopefully I was not running the AC off of the batteries via the inverter mode when I left the boat last week. I will check the dip switch settings on the remote panel as Stu suggested. I will also try switching the AC master switch off and then back on again and wait for a few minutes to give it plenty of time to switch back over to AC. Thanks for the additional comments guys.