starter and solenoid question

[captran]

At the end of our 60 day cruise my wife had a senior moment when shutting down the engine and turned off the key before pulling the plunger.  Realizing quickly the mistake she turned the key back on (in just a few seconds) and pulled the plunger and shut down normally.  The next morning when I pushed the starter button nothing.  No sound, no clicking, no starting-NADA.  Checked the batteries.  All reading 12.6 (link 20) but turned on the starting battery just in case.  Still Nothing.  Checked below all the wires.  Nothing loose.  Tapped very lightly on the starter, looked at the inside wiring at the key switch.  Nothing loose.  Tried to start again, and it started, but I did notice that the buzzer seemed alittle softer than usual.  Over the next two days the boat started every time, but sometimes the buzzer was the regular volume, but sometimes just alittle softer.

I read the Calder books on starters and fretted as we ended the cruise, wondering...is this an ignition switch problem, a buzzer problem, a starter and or solenoid problem or ? and was it caused by the "senior moment" relapse in shut down?  I triple checked all wires connections-none loose. and also wondering about just getting a spare alt/solenoid in case next summer when we come out of storage and the problem is there I am prepared.  As I look at the Caulder books, he talks about jumping the starter, but with my 97, the connections sure look different, as one of the wires is a plug in, so I'm not even sure how to approach it.  Any suggestions on problem solving, parts resources, etc would be greatly appreciated.  I do learn alot by observing and this summer we did have our alternator go out.  North Harbor Diesel came out and replaced it- long story short, for FREE, with a new 55 amp alternator after the rebuilt they had installed failed after 15 minutes, so I am not opposed to having them come out when I go back in the water.  But June is a long way off and I thought I'd use the year to learn more.

Except for those two issues- we had a most perfect cruise of the San Juans, Gulf Islands and Victoria, with Voyager looking and running better than she ever did!  Even noticed she seems to like the cooler waters of the NW better than Florida, running right at 165ish degrees rather than on the high side of 190 degrees in Florida and the Bahamas.  And I never saw so many C 34's in the Bahamas as I saw in the NW!

Thanks for any input or ideas.

PS If any of you have not discovered an easy way to clean off the yellow "mustache", someone in Bellingham turned me onto the fiberglass cleaner- FSR.  easy wipe on and wipe off with no caustic reaction and no scrubbing! (and it was 2 bucks cheaper than West Marine and a store 2 blocks from the Bellingham Marina).

[Ken Juul]

I am not sure of the MKII panel set up, but on the MKI,  once running  the  diesel doesn't care about the position of the switch.  The switch just supplies power to the guages.  My guess is that you are having a problem internal to the ignition switch, intermittent connection or dirty contacts.  With the battery switch off, actuate the ignition switch a bunch of times to see if you can clean the contacts.  Not sure if you can squirt with contact cleaner first of not.  Turn the batteries back on and see if it makes a difference.

For the brown "bow mustache" we have found spraying lemon juice on the stain, followed by a water rinse a few minutes later takes the stain away with no wiping.

[SteveLyle]

Your wife turning off the key is a red herring - I can't see any way that it could be associated with your problem.  Turning off the key shuts off the fuel lift pump (no big deal, there's likely a siphon set up between tank and engine by that point, and anyway she shut off the fuel just after that) and shuts off power to the starter switch and glow plug switch (again, irrelevant since you weren't using either of those switches).  It also turns off the engine panel gauge lights and oil pressure warning buzzer, big whoop.

Sure sounds like a loose contact somewhere in the starter circuit.  The possibilities are human (nut depressing the switch enough), the switch itself, the wiring to it, the contacts at the solenoid, or the solenoid itself.  I assume by "nothing" you didn't even hear the solenoid click, so it's not a starter motor problem.  I'd bet on a loose wire/contact - solenoids are generall designed for hundreds of thousands of cycles, if not millions, as are switches.  My '86 still has the originals and they work fine.

The buzzer is the oil pressure warning buzzer, which isn't involved in the starter circuit.  If you turn the key on and don't hear that buzzer, one possibility is a bad ground to the engine, which would also cause the starter solenoid not to work (and the entire engine panel would be 'dead' as well, since it's grounded to the batteries through the engine block).  If the buzzer is weak it could signal low voltage to the panel, and if you're seeing 12.6v at the main panel that probably means a bad contact somewhere.

Next time you get the problem (hopefully at the dock), get out your multimeter and start checking for power and ground - look for your 12.6 volts between the block and the positive cable to the starter, look for volatage at the solenoid with the key depressed, see if you can hear the fuel lift pump running when the key's on (means you've got a good ground and power to the panel), etc..  

A common problem that's been reported in the past is corrosion on the contacts of the in-line fuse to the solenoid - that would be the first place I'd look.

I'll leave it up to you as to whether you tell your wife she's off the hook.

Good luck,
Steve

[dmorrison]

Randy,
Before I bought my C34 last summer, the previous owner had been having intermittent starting problems similar to what you describe.  He checked all the connections and replaced the starter and the starting battery, which seemed to solve the problem.  But two weeks after I took delivery, the engine would not start as we returned from a beautiful hot summer day on the water.  We sailed to the mooring and went home fretting.  I returned to the boat the next day, expecting to spend as long as necessary to trace the problem, but the engine started right up, so I went sailing and tried not to worry about it.  For the rest of the summer I held my breath every time I pushed the start button, but the problem didn't recur.  As a winter project, I decided to replace all the automotive-type connectors on the original #4 battery cables, and to beef them up by adding new #2 cables parallel to and in addition to the original cables.  In the process I discovered what had to be the real source of the starting problem: the crimped automotive-type connector on the negative cable that bolts to the back of the engine.  The bolt was tight, but the wire inside the connector was very corroded and so loose that when I put a socket wrench on the bolt and started to turn it, the wire just fell right out of the connector.  It's a wonder the engine ever started at all with a connection like that.  Before installing the new connectors, I cut off enough of the old cable to remove the corrosion that had traveled up inside the insulation.  I used marine-grade connectors and sealed them in heat-shrink tubing.  Now, with shiny new connectors and heavier cables, the engine starts beautifully every time, with no more than a one-second crank of the starter.  Actually, I'm sure the new connectors alone would have been enough to solve the problem, but I installed the heavier cables as the first step of some more comprehensive upgrades that I plan for future winter projects.  I don't know if any of this is relevant to your situation, but I thought I'd pass on my experience with what seems like similar symptoms.

[Tim Weber]

I don't know that I can add much to the specific problem you have been having, but would like to reiterate same situation as Dan encountered with wiring upgrade.

I had always had difficult time starting engine even with three 120 amp hour batteries switched to "all". I added the glow plug starter solenoid upgrade but it really didn't matter. I'd long ago bypassed the alternator output back to the amp meter gage on the engine panel and replaced it with a volt meter. It seemed the only thing left to do was to upgrade the battery wiring cables.

I decided there was nothing wrong with the existing #4 cables and would simply add parallel #4 cable alongside. As I proceeded, I made it a point to both solder and crimp the old as well as the new battery cable lugs. I used a propane torch and was able to effectively crimp the copper battery lugs with a pair of adjustable "Channelock" pliers- not perfect but got the job done.

I started at the batteries and worked my way through the bilge to the electrical panel and finally back to the engine. When I was done, I had used 75 ft ! of battery cable- I remember very well- two 25ft spools of black and one 25ft spool of red with only scraps not worth saving left over.

One of the very last connections I made was the ground on the engine block. I couldn't believe it, but i could literally pull the wire out of the battery lug it was so loose. This one connection alone was probably the source of all my problems.

After having made this one upgrade I have never had any qualms about battery usage, the need to upgrade the alternator, add more batteries, etc. The engine starts within a second at most, the cabin lights burn brighter, everything is so much improved, this is by far the single best upgrade I made in fifteen years of owning this boat.

[Ron Hill]

Randy : As Steve said, once a diesel is running the key switch is meaningless; unless you might have a "battery sense" wire onto the key switch and then it could only harm(fry) the alternator.

Try to solder the #4 wire connections/terminals makes all the difference in the world.  You might also clean the contacts on the fuse&holder in the starter solenoid line.  

Intermittent problems are a real B--ch to track down - good luck.  

[Stu Jackson]

Would you put up with this kind of performance from your car?

Intermittent starts are nonsense.  You NEED to find out WHY because it's a SAFETY issue, that simple.  The engine MUST START ALL THE TIME!!!

1.  Do what was suggested above - check the wiring.

2.  Check the damn fuse in the wiring to the starter solenoid.  It got me last summer.  The fuse holder usually goes first.  Of course, this was written up in a Mainsheet Tech Note in 1492!  

3.  Check the ground(s) - ALL OVER especially at the engine.

4.  The alternator sense wire from OEM alternators goes nowhere near the cockpit panel.  I have a voltage regulator (Spa Creek - 1986) and my sense wire goes to the voltage regulator.  I do not know where it goes on "regular" boats without voltage regulators, but there IS A WIRING DIAGRAM for all of you who SHOULD HAVE REPLACED YOUR WIRING HARNESSES, so check that for where the sense wire goes (to AND from).  I'll bet it goes nowhere near the panel.

Therefore, turning off the key as your wife did IS NOT A PROBLEM or any issue at all.

Find out where the loose wire or fuse-holder is and FIX IT.  

So it starts just like your car(s).  

[Ray & Sandy Erps]

Randy,

To answer one of your original questions, the solenoid can be jumped by bridging the gap between the big terminal with the big hot wire cables to the little terminal adjacent it with a screw driver or short jumper wire (probably the small terminal with the plug in connector).  Be sure to take any rings or jewelry off first and don't be surprised if there is a bit of an arc (scarey).  Back yard mechanics do it all the time.

As to the problem, a flakey solenoid usually makes a clicking sound without the starter spinning the motor.  That's the sound of the electo magnetic switch closing the contacts, but the contacts are usually burned so it doesn't allow the current to flow through the connection.  My guess is that your problem is flakey wiring/connections leading up to the starter.  That fuse that Stu talks about would be a prime candidate to check as well as the connections on the back side of the instrument panel in the ignition circut.

On the lighter side, when we were first married and poorer, I drove an old car that I parked on a hill all the time because we couldn't afford a new starter battery.  My legs were young enough back then to push start it each day.  Too bad boats can't be push started.


Signed "Sparkey"

[captran]

Well, I think I will let her know that it was just a coincidence.  When I had the new alternator installed the mechanic checked the wiring and did find the ground nut on the block loose, and tightened it,  but I will take your advice and check the wire into the lug.  I had checked the terminals inside the panel at the pedestal and nothing was loose, but I agree-am inclided to want to track down the why, especially given that the buzzer was at times softer vs. regular volume.  It sounds like it wasn't the solenoid, as there was no clicking or spinning-just dead silence. I don't remember seeing the fuse to the solenoid, so I'll have to figure out where that is located. Looks like I'll have alot of line and connections to double check.  As always, thank you all for sharing your expertise.

[Jim Price]

You will have to look hard for the small wire with the fuse running to the starter solenoid.  Usually tucked under the and behind the alternator.  Mine got me a few times when I forst got the boat until I discovered the culprit.  Turn key and nothing would happen.  The automotive in-line fuse holder was corroded on the inside and nothing was passing through the fuse.  Initial solutions until I traced down was shaking all the sires around engine and she would start.  Sounds a lot like your situation.  Real simple to fix but pain in the A-- if you don't know where to look.  

[captran]

I'll start there, at the starter, but also I'll check the wire to the ground.  I know the nut is tight but I'll check the connection to the lug too.  I wish gas wasnt so high, I'd be tempted to drive over on a weekend and check now rather than waiting till spring.

[fulvio]

 

So glad to have this forum!  I was having exactly the same problem, and got my engine started right away after finding this thread 6 years after it had been posted.

Be a shame to waste the first beautiful Seattle weekend of the year!



Fulvio Casali
Soliton, #929 (1989)