Anchor fit

pbyrne · July 21, 2020, 07:20:08 PM

New to me MKII. Anchor will not retract onto roller without shackle getting stuck and I have to reach through the pulpit to fiddle around and get it through. This is not easy to do at the best of times, and very difficult for smaller crew!

The issue is pretty clear, however I could use some recommendations on how to make the anchor and rode I do have work. I'm not well versed on what makes up a good anchoring system.

I'm also open to suggestions on a new anchor etc, however I'm hoping there is a way to reuse the existing setup.

It's around a 1 1/2 inch chain, and 3/4 inch rode.

Thoughts?

Noah · July 21, 2020, 07:50:22 PM

Just a few observations.
1. You have a huge plow anchor. Could probably save weight, size and get better holding with a "new" generation style such as a Rocna or Manson Supreme.

2. Chain is measured by diameter of the chain link, not across the the entire link. Looks like you have 3/8 in. chain, which is large for our boats, but not out of the question for extra security. I use 3/8 myself. A bit big for windlass, but....

3. Try rotating your anchor roller bail (big stainless U-loop attached to roller) 90 degrees, probably make docking the anchor easier. It is not intended as a hold down to keep the anchor on the boat. Use a tie Down line for that purpose.

4. I would remove the swivel. Not needed unless you have all chain rode and even then controversial as to needed as could add a weak point.

That all being said: lots of differing opinions in Forum re: anchors and ground tackle.

Stu Jackson · July 21, 2020, 09:25:11 PM

Welcome.

Your post is very helpful and the pictures are superb.

I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that either of two things happened with and to your anchoring system:

1. Your PO did a LOT of anchoring early in his career and brought his old CQR anchor with him from his last boat

2. Somebody sold you a boat with anchor gear that he never used on this boat and took the good stuff with him

Mark IIs, IIRC, came with Delta anchors and 5/16" chain to fit the windlasses which came with the boats (perhaps not the early 1994-6 boats, don't know for sure, but certainly all the rest - check the tech wiki for price lists).

I may get flamed for this, but

--- The CQR should be removed from your boat if you want to sleep safely at anchor. Why? It's either oversized to hold properly or is the right size for your boat, in which case it will fail. They are 1940s technology.

--- Unless you're doing a circumnavigation, the chain is way oversized for a C34

--- Lose the swivel

Does the chain match the windlass?

You can learn a lot about anchoring SYSTEMS in the 101 Topics.

You could start with these:

Anchor Selection 101 includes good discussions of various system selections and pictures of new generation anchors on bowsprits both short and extended http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4457.0.html

Why NEW GEN Anchors are Better:

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,2705.msg19651.html#msg19651

Anchor System Sizing Tables (Reply #6) & Swivels http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4990.msg30400.html#msg30400

Our primary interest, as you may know, is your safety. We also have some experience in helping folks learn to make their own choices.

I've found, without a windlass, that sizing the system to the task is important. But even with a windlass, matching the rode to the mechanical assistant is critical.

Good luck with enhancing your system.

skyward · July 22, 2020, 03:35:51 AM

I have a 5/8" rode and 16' of 5/16" chain on a 25lb Danforth. My 96 has a very short bow roller setup so it seems impossible to hang the anchor while cruising, so I have to pull the anchor in by hand in between the headsail furling gear and the pulpit so that the anchor can sit inside the locker. I'd love to get rid of the Danforth and get an extended bow roller.

Roc · July 22, 2020, 06:37:42 AM

As others say, it may be better to get new design anchor. I have a Mantus. If you want to solve your CQR fit, it looks like the bale is not letting the joint to pass. Maybe getting a bale with a higher opening would help.

Stu Jackson · July 22, 2020, 06:41:19 AM

skyw,

It would help us to help you if you shared your hull #. And where you sail. In this case, too, is the anchor there for only safety or do you like to anchor out a lot?

Please read the links I provided above one of which includes a discussion about what Steve Dolling (aka waterdog) and I call our "toy bow rollers." We have found them to be excellent for reasons included in those texts. You don't necessarily need an extended roller.

If, however, you want to keep your danforth, then yes, either that or a hanger on the bow pulpit, which is a bit cheesy for a C34. I did it on our C22 and C25.

skyward · July 22, 2020, 01:55:33 PM

Thanks, Stu. I figured out how to set up my signature (hope it worked!). We love to anchor but we have tidal and soft/loose ground here in the NYNJ area. I will look at the posts you mention. I'm a newbie here, so thank you for the tip.

Ron Hill · July 22, 2020, 02:20:11 PM

Jeff : You need to look at the sites that Stu mentioned for anchors. It appears to me that on your top picture that the CQR stock is too long will never pull back into the anchor well any further!! Most new anchors have a shorter stock.

To keep the weight down I went to 1/4" High Tensile strength chain. I also recommend that you switch to 1/2" braid on braid rode. The 3 strand gets stiff after a few years and hard to work with. The braid on braid rode always stays nimble and easy to store in the Anchor Well.

In your area you should probably carry 2 anchors. One for your mud bottom and one for north of you where it's rocky!!

A few thoughts

pbyrne · July 22, 2020, 06:56:54 PM

Thank you! All good info. I didn't realize that was how you measured the chain. The windlass gets bound up with the chain, and that didn't seem right. It seemed pointless to me to have a mechanism that would only do part of the job. Now I know why.

Quote from: Noah on July 21, 2020, 07:50:22 PM
Just a few observations.
1. You have a huge plow anchor. Could probably save weight, size and get better holding with a "new" generation style such as a Rocna or Manson Supreme.

2. Chain is measured by diameter of the chain link, not across the the entire link. Looks like you have 3/8 in. chain, which is large for our boats, but not out of the question for extra security. I use 3/8 myself. A bit big for windlass, but....

3. Try rotating your anchor roller bail (big stainless U-loop attached to roller) 90 degrees, probably make docking the anchor easier. It is not intended as a hold down to keep the anchor on the boat. Use a tie Down line for that purpose.

4. I would remove the swivel. Not needed unless you have all chain rode and even then controversial as to needed as could add a weak point.

That all being said: lots of differing opinions in Forum re: anchors and ground tackle.

pbyrne · July 22, 2020, 07:14:03 PM

Thanks! I'm happy that they've helped explain the issue so well.

The PO still helps out on the boat and we're on good terms, and he's the first owner. I have no idea where the system came from. It's clear now why it's been so challenging to work with!

It's a 2001 so I'm sure it came with the Delta (very nice anchor) 5/16" chain.

The windlass is mounted in the anchor locker and is a Maxwell I believe. The chain binds on it as it just doesn't have the diameter to gather the chain and it's also smooth, which doesn't hold the chain. Not sure if there is a technique to using it with chain.

Noted on the swivel.

I will definitely read those links. I think this is an interesting topic!

Can I ask what you'd recommend for new system though?

I'm on a fresh water river with a typical depth of 10 - 20ft in the best anchorages, but there are some great spots that are in the 30-50ft depth range. Mud or weeds, little to no rocks.

Quote from: Stu Jackson on July 21, 2020, 09:25:11 PM
Welcome.

Your post is very helpful and the pictures are superb.

I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that either of two things happened with and to your anchoring system:

1. Your PO did a LOT of anchoring early in his career and brought his old CQR anchor with him from his last boat

2. Somebody sold you a boat with anchor gear that he never used on this boat and took the good stuff with him

Mark IIs, IIRC, came with Delta anchors and 5/16" chain to fit the windlasses which came with the boats (perhaps not the early 1994-6 boats, don't know for sure, but certainly all the rest - check the tech wiki for price lists).

I may get flamed for this, but

--- The CQR should be removed from your boat if you want to sleep safely at anchor. Why? It's either oversized to hold properly or is the right size for your boat, in which case it will fail. They are 1940s technology.

--- Unless you're doing a circumnavigation, the chain is way oversized for a C34

--- Lose the swivel

Does the chain match the windlass?

You can learn a lot about anchoring SYSTEMS in the 101 Topics.

You could start with these:

Anchor Selection 101 includes good discussions of various system selections and pictures of new generation anchors on bowsprits both short and extended http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4457.0.html

Why NEW GEN Anchors are Better:

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,2705.msg19651.html#msg19651

Anchor System Sizing Tables (Reply #6) & Swivels http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4990.msg30400.html#msg30400

Our primary interest, as you may know, is your safety. We also have some experience in helping folks learn to make their own choices.

I've found, without a windlass, that sizing the system to the task is important. But even with a windlass, matching the rode to the mechanical assistant is critical.

Good luck with enhancing your system.

pbyrne · July 22, 2020, 07:17:48 PM

I think a new anchor is in the cards at the very least. I just can't have something that heavy that binds. It's a PITA to get it back up and sailing should be fun.

That's a nice anchor! Even if it did pass it the shank is so long it won't go any further into the locker.

It's a monster.

Quote from: Roc on July 22, 2020, 06:37:42 AM
As others say, it may be better to get new design anchor. I have a Mantus. If you want to solve your CQR fit, it looks like the bale is not letting the joint to pass. Maybe getting a bale with a higher opening would help.

pbyrne · July 22, 2020, 07:22:58 PM

I should also mention that the boat came with a very nice Fortress FX 11, chain and rode as well! From memory the chain and rode are the same size as the CQR.

Ron Hill · July 23, 2020, 02:22:04 PM

pby : Your windless in the picture appears to only be equipped with a drum for rode. You need a Gypsy for chain!!!

Although I have heard that if you take the chrome finish off the drum it then can be also be used for chain??

A few thoughts

pbyrne · July 23, 2020, 02:46:24 PM

Funny you mention that. I was literally just reading about windlasses... !

Thanks for point it out though! It explains a lot. I didn't really try to use it with chain anyways, but I understand now why it won't work.

Quote from: Ron Hill on July 23, 2020, 02:22:04 PM
pby : Your windless in the picture is only equipped with a drum for rode. You need a Gypsy for chain!!!

Although I have heard that if you take the chrome finish off the drum it then can be also be used for chain??

A few thoughts

Noah · July 23, 2020, 03:28:07 PM

If you use a combo anchor rode with say 40ft of chain (about right amount for C34) and the rest is rope (either 3-strand, or 8-plait) your capstan/drum on the windlass will work for a rope/chain combo. Not ideal, and it may chip/wear off some of the chrome on the drum, but it will work. That's how I do mine. Just take a couple of wraps around the drum with the chain.