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Author Topic: Difficulty shifting into forward  (Read 9038 times)

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Stu Jackson

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Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2016, 08:19:22 AM »

Have you checked the Critical Upgrades topic?  IIRC, there's a link to the Westerbeke service bulletins.
I could not find a link by manually scanning the topic. Most message boards have a "search within topic" option, but I can't find it here. Am I missing it? Searching the whole message board generated too many spurious hits.

I did find some TSBs on the Westerbeke website. The one on shift lever (SB36) seemed to just say the same thing that the manual already says.

Rick, we can't possibly know what you read or didn't, what search terms you used, or what you consider spurious,  :D :D :D  so this is the one I meant:

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.msg31122.html#msg31122

The Critical Upgrades topic is all of four pages, so a search within a search is kinda unnecessary.  We've recommended that folks print them out, too.

I think you get the points made that there are two ends.  I thought your answer was very funny.   :clap Thx.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 09:22:16 AM by Stu Jackson »
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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

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Ron Hill

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Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2016, 09:33:14 AM »

Break & Dave : If you still have a question about shifting and can't seem to find the info yourself, pick up the telephone and call Joe Joyce (Service Manager @ Westerbeke). 
I'm traveling, but have posted his tel# many times before!!

A thought
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awesome34

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Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2016, 03:54:46 PM »

I have had this problem a couple of times.  First when replacing the plastic gear shift with the metal ones in which case I could not get into forward and then again one time coming back from the boat yard when someone who was working on my boat in the general area of the transmission cable unintentionally "adjusted" it so that I did not have reverse. To fix it I made all of my adjustments below the aft cabin where the transmission cable has a screw on attachment a little ways behind the transmission that allows you to adjust the cable forward or backward slightly, but enough for me, relative to the transmission. I would make adjustments down below and then run the engine and make sure I could put the boat in forward and reverse at low rpm while still tied to the dock until I was happy with it.  The results of that process have worked fine for me so far. 

-Eric
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Breakin Away

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Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2016, 04:20:47 PM »

I have had this problem a couple of times.  First when replacing the plastic gear shift with the metal ones in which case I could not get into forward and then again one time coming back from the boat yard when someone who was working on my boat in the general area of the transmission cable unintentionally "adjusted" it so that I did not have reverse. To fix it I made all of my adjustments below the aft cabin where the transmission cable has a screw on attachment a little ways behind the transmission that allows you to adjust the cable forward or backward slightly, but enough for me, relative to the transmission. I would make adjustments down below and then run the engine and make sure I could put the boat in forward and reverse at low rpm while still tied to the dock until I was happy with it.  The results of that process have worked fine for me so far. 

-Eric

Funny, I just crawled out of my aft berth to check your message, and that's exactly what I'm doing. Thanks for the advice!

The travel distance of the shift lever is below Westerbeke's spec in forward, because the shift lever hits the binnacle. The travel in reverse is well above spec. So I need to shorten the linkage. There only about 1/4" additional thread to shorten, and not sure if the end piece will bottom out before I take it in. But that's what I'm going to try first to see how much it improves the situation.

Ideally I need to adjust the whole thing about 7/16" to have equal travel each direction, but not sure the best way to do that. There's not enough thread left to take in that much. The mounting bar's alternate holes aren't spaced properly for the mounting posts on the transmission. I could take it off and drill new holes, but that's not a short-term project. I can't figure out how to get the compass off the binnacle, so can't adjust that end right now.

So for now, I'll take in as much as I can on the linkage, test to see how much better it is, and look for additional ways to take more in (and look for the compass manual to figure out how to take it off).

If none of that works, I can try to have the lever bent a little.
Have you checked the Critical Upgrades topic?  IIRC, there's a link to the Westerbeke service bulletins.
I could not find a link by manually scanning the topic. Most message boards have a "search within topic" option, but I can't find it here. Am I missing it? Searching the whole message board generated too many spurious hits.

I did find some TSBs on the Westerbeke website. The one on shift lever (SB36) seemed to just say the same thing that the manual already says.

Rick, we can't possibly know what you read or didn't, what search terms you used, or what you consider spurious,  :D :D :D  so this is the one I meant:

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.msg31122.html#msg31122

The Critical Upgrades topic is all of four pages, so a search within a search is kinda unnecessary.  We've recommended that folks print them out, too.

I think you get the points made that there are two ends.  I thought your answer was very funny.   :clap Thx.
Thanks to Stu for editing his message today to add the nonexistent link. That is one of the messages I had found by reading the whole topic last night, but I did not realize it was the one he was referring to because it lacked a link. Unfortunately the link that he added today generates a 404 error.

I still am curious whether there is a method to search only within a topic. Other message boards that I use do have such a feature, and I think they use the same web software. So maybe the feature is there and I just can't find it. This tech question is broader than that one thread - other threads can be very long and limiting a search to within a thread can get very targeted hits. I didn't mean for that to be funny.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 04:33:25 PM by Breakin Away »
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KWKloeber

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Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2016, 04:56:31 PM »

Don't of course know your compass, but mine has 4 Phillips head, vertical screws around the  outside black rim.  She lifts off with those removed and I can get at 4 slotted head bolts that hold the riser above the steering guts. 
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Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Stu Jackson

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Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2016, 06:07:26 PM »

Rick,

My compass comes off if you twist the whole housing.  Couldn't be simpler.

I clicked the link and it works for me.  Alternatively,as you did, just go read them.

If you use the Google search engine on this forum it may alleviate your concern about a search within a topic.  It's discussed in one of the stickies.  You are the very first person to ever mention this on this forum in the 15 years I've been on it.  It might be helpful, and if you want to pursue it, why not discuss it with the webmaster?  It may actually be available, I personally don't know.  I'm just the secretary of the association.  I tend to provide links in almost all of my replies, as others have taken the idea, too.  I just hate retyping stuff. :D 
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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

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KWKloeber

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Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2016, 07:44:07 PM »

If you use the Google search engine on this forum it may alleviate your concern about a search within a topic.  It's discussed in one of the stickies.  You are the very first person to ever mention this on this forum in the 15 years I've been on it.  It might be helpful, and if you want to pursue it, why not discuss it with the webmaster?  It may actually be available, I personally don't know.


Break (1-9?) ...

Use the search (the link on the main c34 page) not the search in the forum.  "Search within" is certainly nice, but that feature simply adds another search term to the one(s) you originally searched on.  So, whatever your results are for your initial search, just add your desired "search within" term to the search box and "research" (couldn't resist.)

Better yet, after your initial search, do an advanced search (click the gear icon, upper right on the google results page > "Advanced search") and you have powerful options to dial in what you're looking for.

-kk
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Breakin Away

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Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2016, 10:10:52 PM »

...To fix it I made all of my adjustments below the aft cabin where the transmission cable has a screw on attachment a little ways behind the transmission that allows you to adjust the cable forward or backward slightly, but enough for me, relative to the transmission...
I think I found the attachment that you're referring to, but it has a distinctive notch in it that mates with a groove in the end of the cable, so I can't adjust the cable fore-aft at all.

I attempted to thread the linkage tie end further onto the cable (effectively shortening it), but it immediately bottomed out. The thread is 10-32, so I threaded it into my bolt cutter and tried to cut off about 12 turns to allow me to thread the linkage on further, but that cutter is very weak (pretty much just works for brass screws), so I couldn't do that. That's a good thing, because afterwards I concluded that the best way to fix this without doing anything irreversible is to cut new holes into the mounting plate so it mounts 1/2" further back.The plate already has a bunch of extra holes (presumably for use with different transmission models), and there is already a hole right where I want it. All I need to do is make that hole a little bigger and cut a second hole, and I can mount this thing in the perfect position. And if it doesn't work, I just mount it with the original holes.

My compass housing turns a few degrees each direction, and doing it back-and-forth repeatedly caused it to ride up and come off. (Much simpler than the compass on my old C250.) Underneath is a mounting plate with four screws as described above. I'll take that off in the morning when I have light and have a look at everything. If there's a way to shorten the cable from there I may try it, otherwise I'm going to drill the holes in the mounting plate.

Another change I plan to make is to cut the wood cover under the aft berth right where the seam is between the two cushions. That will facilitate quick access to the front part, where the Racor, raw water strainer, transmission, and muffler are all located, all of which might need to be accessed quickly in the event of a malfunction. Has anyone else done that? It seems silly to have this one huge cover that is so cumbersome to remove.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 07:11:15 PM by Breakin Away »
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KWKloeber

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Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2016, 11:05:33 PM »

Under the "hollow" riser that holds the compass you'll find a clevis fork threaded onto the cable (similar to the adjustment at the tranny end).  My clevis pins are held with cotter pins, some may have external spring clips.  The only difficult part is working in the small space and if course not dropping the clips/cotter and clevis pin.  There's also screws to adjust more/less tension on the control handle axle (if your throttle tends to vibrate backward like mine did.)

-kk
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

capndon

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Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2016, 08:21:11 AM »

Sorry for your transmission cable issue. As to your aft cabin access issue, I too struggled with that d@^m board! By all means cut it where the cushions meet. That is exactly what I have done and it has greatly facilitated access. I can't believe I suffered with it for as long as I did before finally cutting it!!
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Stu Jackson

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Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2016, 08:57:28 AM »

Another change I plan to make is to cut the wood cover under the aft berth right where the seam is between the two cushions. That will facilitate quick access to the front part, where the Racor, raw water strainer, transmission, and muffler are all located, all of which might need to be accessed quickly in the event of a malfunction. Has anyone else done that? It seems silly to have this one huge cover that is so cumbersome to remove.

I cut that one.  I cut the one in the V berth.  I cut the one over the holding tank and macerator.  I trimmed the one under the starboard settee for access to the forward section without having to lift all the cushions.  The Mark Is are different since none of our cushions has hard underneath parts, they're real cushions.  Have at it.  Glad to hear you're making progress.
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awesome34

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Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2016, 10:16:44 AM »

I think you found what I was talking about.  I simple moved the cable back in the clamp about as far as I was comfortable that the clamp would still hold the cable and that was enough of an adjustment for me. There is separation in the cable that is ideal for the clamp's notch in my cable, as well, so it might be more ideal to adjust at the compass to keep that clamp in the notch, but I found that the clamp holds quite strong where I was able to put it, although you may want more of an adjustment than I did. I think I removed my compass the first time the problem occurred and felt like there were a lot more ways for me to screw up a repair up there than down below, but you and others may feel differently. Although, I may have purchased some longer screws to hold the clamp in after the boatyard guy managed to accidentally yank the cable out while installing a drip-less shaft.  Maybe I shouldn't be, but I am comfortable with it now and it has worked so far for me. I have attached pictures of how my cable is attached in case that might help. 
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Breakin Away

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Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2016, 12:56:47 PM »

Thanks for the pics! That's exactly what I have, but I was not comfortable moving the notch outside the groove. And it would definitely need longer screws, as the ones in there are barely long enough with the notch in place.

Before I summarize what I did today, I do want to mention that I discovered that my transmission fluid dipstick has no sealing ring at the top. Does anyone have a suggested replacement that I can find in a brick&mortar auto store? It looks like it would need a fiber washer with ID of 5/8" (16 mm).

I finished removing the compass today and looked down at the chain and linkages. I'm not going to attempt adjusting the linkages there. In addition to the risk of dropping something down the "chimney," those linkages are very long, and you can't just twist them without grabbing the push rods and/or lock nuts. Those elements are buried way too deep to get to. Unless I was seeing it wrong, the only way to adjust would be to remove the cable. I think drilling a new hole in the mounting plate to shift it aft by 1/2" will be a much simpler solution, and fully reversible if I need to put it back the way it is currently.

In looking over things closely, I'm pretty sure this transmission was removed and repainted, presumably as part of a rebuild. There is paperwork from the previous owner indicating that he paid someone to remove it for inspection, but no paperwork that any follow-up work was done. But by the looks of things I'd say it was rebuilt, and I may be about to solve the root cause that led to the rebuild. On the surface this looks like a clear-cut case. The cable only pulls the shift lever into forward by 1" due to binnacle interference, vs. a spec of ~1.2" (for inner holes), but it pushes the lever into reverse by up to 2". So it seems obvious that moving the cable back by 1/2" will make the lever motion symmetrical and well above spec in both directions. Service manual clearly says:

Quote
A greater amount of shift lever travel is in no way detrimental and is recommended. However, if the lever travel is shorter, proper clutch engagement might be impeded....This would be indicated by slow clutch engagement or no engagement at all.
...which is exactly what I was experiencing.

I'm pretty excited about this, because it really looks like symptoms and solution line up perfectly. While I wish the PO had fixed this before I took ownership, it's nice to have a clear solution. My pre-purchase surveyor and sea trial captain (owner was absent) had warned me to keep an eye out for this due to the interference from the binnacle tube, but they considered the shifting to be acceptable.

Finally, I have a question. As inevitably happens, you put everything back together and one extra part remains. After reassembling my compass, I found the below sticker on my cockpit sole. The adhesive had dried and it fell off from somewhere. Any clues where it was attached?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 12:59:02 PM by Breakin Away »
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2001 MkII Breakin' Away, #1535, TR/WK, M35BC, Mantus 35# (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Stu Jackson

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Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2016, 09:23:07 PM »

Before I summarize what I did today, I do want to mention that I discovered that my transmission fluid dipstick has no sealing ring at the top. Does anyone have a suggested replacement that I can find in a brick&mortar auto store? It looks like it would need a fiber washer with ID of 5/8" (16 mm).

It's called ACE Hardware.  Really.  A good hardware store has just about everything you need for your boat.  You could go online at McMaster Carr, but you might have to find different sizes thst span what you "may" have.

Go to your local hardware store.  You won't be sorry.  Unless you have a really crappy store. 
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Breakin Away

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Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2016, 03:18:31 AM »

Before I summarize what I did today, I do want to mention that I discovered that my transmission fluid dipstick has no sealing ring at the top. Does anyone have a suggested replacement that I can find in a brick&mortar auto store? It looks like it would need a fiber washer with ID of 5/8" (16 mm).

It's called ACE Hardware.  Really.  A good hardware store has just about everything you need for your boat.  You could go online at McMaster Carr, but you might have to find different sizes thst span what you "may" have.

Go to your local hardware store.  You won't be sorry.  Unless you have a really crappy store.
I had already gone to two stores when I posted (one hardware, one auto parts) and could not find a part that would work. That's why I posted here.

The problem is that the sealing rings with 5/8" ID are too wide to fit in the spot (OD too large to fit in the flat area). A ring with the proper ID that is not too wide seems to be difficult to find, so I'm asking here if anyone has found these parts at a B&M store, and if so where.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 06:34:25 AM by Breakin Away »
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