Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: Breakin Away on September 16, 2016, 08:06:53 AM

Title: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on September 16, 2016, 08:06:53 AM
My boat has some inconsistency when shifting into forward. I have had similar problems with charter boats before, so I think it may be a common problem.

Due to the shape of the Edson shift levers, they hit against the SS pedestal guard tube, preventing the levers from going forward as far as they might otherwise. As a result, it seems like the shift lever does not always get the boat into forward.

My workaround for now has been the same thing I did on similar charter boats: Push the shift lever into forward as firmly as I can, and wait a second until I hear it go into forward gear before I apply any additional throttle.

Once every few weeks it does not go into forward at all on the first try, and I need to pull the lever back to the neutral detente position and do it again. Fortunately this has not happened during any critical docking maneuvers. And so far, it has always gone into forward on the second attempt. I always worry that I may get to a point where it does not go into forward at all.

My concern is that if I attempt to adjust the shift cable to go into forward more readily, the boat may not go into reverse reliably, or may not go into neutral at the middle detent position. So before experimenting I thought I would pick your brains for any similar experiences and suggestions for how to solve this problem.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on September 16, 2016, 08:15:59 AM
I had the same issue when I changed to the Edson s/s handles on my 30 and Hurth-50.  Just adjust the cable to the best compromise.  Don't go overboard, just fine tune it. She'll always go into neutral -- it's controlled by the Hurth end, not the handle end.

-kk
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Stu Jackson on September 16, 2016, 08:19:53 AM
This is a recurring, and old, issue.  You MUST adjust it or you'll damage your transmission.  Do what Ken said or bend the lever.  Fix it before you have an expensive repair.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on September 16, 2016, 08:26:10 AM
I'll dive into the manual next time I get to the boat. But in the meantime, any tips and tricks for how to do the adjustment would be appreciated. I assume there is an adjustable nut and locknut at one end of the shift cable outer sheath, presumably at where it attaches to the transmission. Any suggestions of where to find it, how to easily access it, and what direction/how far to turn it, may help reduce my trial-and-error.

Or if there's a link to a tech article somewhere that would be even better.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: DaveBMusik on September 16, 2016, 08:32:13 AM
Just did this a month ago. In short, take off the compass and the adjusting screwas are accessible. I adjusted the friction on my throttle while I was there. Edson has great schematics on line.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on September 16, 2016, 08:34:34 AM
Oh, that's the opposite end of what I was thinking. Probably more accessible there.

While I have the compass off, is there anything else I should do? Lubricate the steering chain? (If there is a chain)
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on September 16, 2016, 08:56:26 AM
Oh, that's the opposite end of what I was thinking.

Clarification -  :oops: I should have explained that there's two ways to adjust this. 
At the pedestal end, you remove the clevis pin and clevis from the handle and adjust the clevis in or out (as you would a turnbuckle) and lock-nut it in the new position, rein stall the pin (while working in a confined spot and not drop anything.)  Or adjust at the tranny end.  On the 30 it's way easier to get at the tranny end -- nothing to do but open one access door (I cant say about access on the 34.)  Just make sure it's not at the end of the thread travel if you use the pedestal method.

-k
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Ron Hill on September 16, 2016, 04:07:42 PM
Break : Have you checked the service bulletin from Westerbeke on the shifting adjustments on the Hurth 100/ZF10 transmissions??

A thought  :roll:
 
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: DaveBMusik on September 16, 2016, 05:31:33 PM
Page 9 is what I followed.

http://www.edsonmarine.com/support/PDFs/planning/EB381SteeringGuide.pdf
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on September 16, 2016, 06:47:03 PM
Break : Have you checked the service bulletin from Westerbeke on the shifting adjustments on the Hurth 100/ZF10 transmissions??

A thought  :roll:
I have both the operators manual and the service manual for the M35B, which includes specs and illustrations for adjusting the travel of the shift lever on Hurth transmissions (1 3/8" minimum travel in both directions). However, your use of the word "service bulletin" implies a revision to the original manual. Google failed to generate any hits on a "service bulletin". So if you could point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it.

I also found this interesting tidbit in the manual, which goes contrary to the advice I was given to always lock the prop in reverse when sailing:

Quote
WHEN UNDER SAIL OR BEING TOWED
Rotation of the propeller without load, such as when the boat
is being sailed, being towed, or anchored in a river, as well as
operation of the engine with the propeller stopped (for
charging the battery), will have no detrimental effects on the transmission.

What is the prevailing wisdom on this from the C34 community? Obviously, letting the prop free-wheel would improve sailing speed due to less resistance, but I had heard that it would wear out the gearbox, although the manual seems to suggest that it will not.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Stu Jackson on September 16, 2016, 07:20:00 PM
However, your use of the word "service bulletin" implies a revision to the original manual. Google failed to generate any hits on a "service bulletin". So if you could point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it.



Have you checked the Critical Upgrades topic?  IIRC, there's a link to the Westerbeke service bulletins.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on September 16, 2016, 08:19:45 PM
Have you checked the Critical Upgrades topic?  IIRC, there's a link to the Westerbeke service bulletins.
I could not find a link by manually scanning the topic. Most message boards have a "search within topic" option, but I can't find it here. Am I missing it? Searching the whole message board generated too many spurious hits.

I did find some TSBs on the Westerbeke website. The one on shift lever (SB36) seemed to just say the same thing that the manual already says.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on September 16, 2016, 08:38:39 PM

I also found this interesting tidbit in the manual, which goes contrary to the advice I was given to always lock the prop in reverse when sailing:

Quote
WHEN UNDER SAIL OR BEING TOWED
Rotation of the propeller without load, such as when the boat
is being sailed, being towed, or anchored in a river, as well as
operation of the engine with the propeller stopped (for
charging the battery), will have no detrimental effects on the transmission.

What is the prevailing wisdom on this from the C34 community? Obviously, letting the prop free-wheel would improve sailing speed due to less resistance, but I had heard that it would wear out the gearbox, although the manual seems to suggest that it will not.

If it's freewheeling, in neutral, then it's turning with no load (i.e., not detrimental as stated). 
So is locking it in reverse not detrimental -- so with a 2-blade you can position the cups vertical (cuts drag.)
Don't lock it in forward.

-kk
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on September 16, 2016, 08:58:52 PM

I also found this interesting tidbit in the manual, which goes contrary to the advice I was given to always lock the prop in reverse when sailing:

Quote
WHEN UNDER SAIL OR BEING TOWED
Rotation of the propeller without load, such as when the boat
is being sailed, being towed, or anchored in a river, as well as
operation of the engine with the propeller stopped (for
charging the battery), will have no detrimental effects on the transmission.

What is the prevailing wisdom on this from the C34 community? Obviously, letting the prop free-wheel would improve sailing speed due to less resistance, but I had heard that it would wear out the gearbox, although the manual seems to suggest that it will not.

If it's freewheeling, in neutral, then it's turning with no load (i.e., not detrimental as stated). 
So is locking it in reverse not detrimental -- so with a 2-blade you can position the cups vertical (cuts drag.)
Don't lock it in forward.

-kk
I have 3 blade non-folding prop, so locking in reverse really increases drag. I'd love to leave it in neutral for less drag, but had always been told not to do this. I guess it's OK unless someone else says they saw increased wear on gearbox or packing gland.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: DaveBMusik on September 17, 2016, 07:14:17 AM
I too have a three blade prop. I am unable to shift out of reverse under load and must start it in gear. I have reverted to staying in neutral.


I also found this interesting tidbit in the manual, which goes contrary to the advice I was given to always lock the prop in reverse when sailing:

Quote
WHEN UNDER SAIL OR BEING TOWED
Rotation of the propeller without load, such as when the boat
is being sailed, being towed, or anchored in a river, as well as
operation of the engine with the propeller stopped (for
charging the battery), will have no detrimental effects on the transmission.

What is the prevailing wisdom on this from the C34 community? Obviously, letting the prop free-wheel would improve sailing speed due to less resistance, but I had heard that it would wear out the gearbox, although the manual seems to suggest that it will not.

If it's freewheeling, in neutral, then it's turning with no load (i.e., not detrimental as stated). 
So is locking it in reverse not detrimental -- so with a 2-blade you can position the cups vertical (cuts drag.)
Don't lock it in forward.

-kk
I have 3 blade non-folding prop, so locking in reverse really increases drag. I'd love to leave it in neutral for less drag, but had always been told not to do this. I guess it's OK unless someone else says they saw increased wear on gearbox or packing gland.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Stu Jackson on September 17, 2016, 08:19:22 AM
Have you checked the Critical Upgrades topic?  IIRC, there's a link to the Westerbeke service bulletins.
I could not find a link by manually scanning the topic. Most message boards have a "search within topic" option, but I can't find it here. Am I missing it? Searching the whole message board generated too many spurious hits.

I did find some TSBs on the Westerbeke website. The one on shift lever (SB36) seemed to just say the same thing that the manual already says.

Rick, we can't possibly know what you read or didn't, what search terms you used, or what you consider spurious,  :D :D :D  so this is the one I meant:

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.msg31122.html#msg31122

The Critical Upgrades topic is all of four pages, so a search within a search is kinda unnecessary.  We've recommended that folks print them out, too.

I think you get the points made that there are two ends.  I thought your answer was very funny.   :clap Thx.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Ron Hill on September 17, 2016, 09:33:14 AM
Break & Dave : If you still have a question about shifting and can't seem to find the info yourself, pick up the telephone and call Joe Joyce (Service Manager @ Westerbeke). 
I'm traveling, but have posted his tel# many times before!!

A thought
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: awesome34 on September 17, 2016, 03:54:46 PM
I have had this problem a couple of times.  First when replacing the plastic gear shift with the metal ones in which case I could not get into forward and then again one time coming back from the boat yard when someone who was working on my boat in the general area of the transmission cable unintentionally "adjusted" it so that I did not have reverse. To fix it I made all of my adjustments below the aft cabin where the transmission cable has a screw on attachment a little ways behind the transmission that allows you to adjust the cable forward or backward slightly, but enough for me, relative to the transmission. I would make adjustments down below and then run the engine and make sure I could put the boat in forward and reverse at low rpm while still tied to the dock until I was happy with it.  The results of that process have worked fine for me so far. 

-Eric
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on September 17, 2016, 04:20:47 PM
I have had this problem a couple of times.  First when replacing the plastic gear shift with the metal ones in which case I could not get into forward and then again one time coming back from the boat yard when someone who was working on my boat in the general area of the transmission cable unintentionally "adjusted" it so that I did not have reverse. To fix it I made all of my adjustments below the aft cabin where the transmission cable has a screw on attachment a little ways behind the transmission that allows you to adjust the cable forward or backward slightly, but enough for me, relative to the transmission. I would make adjustments down below and then run the engine and make sure I could put the boat in forward and reverse at low rpm while still tied to the dock until I was happy with it.  The results of that process have worked fine for me so far. 

-Eric

Funny, I just crawled out of my aft berth to check your message, and that's exactly what I'm doing. Thanks for the advice!

The travel distance of the shift lever is below Westerbeke's spec in forward, because the shift lever hits the binnacle. The travel in reverse is well above spec. So I need to shorten the linkage. There only about 1/4" additional thread to shorten, and not sure if the end piece will bottom out before I take it in. But that's what I'm going to try first to see how much it improves the situation.

Ideally I need to adjust the whole thing about 7/16" to have equal travel each direction, but not sure the best way to do that. There's not enough thread left to take in that much. The mounting bar's alternate holes aren't spaced properly for the mounting posts on the transmission. I could take it off and drill new holes, but that's not a short-term project. I can't figure out how to get the compass off the binnacle, so can't adjust that end right now.

So for now, I'll take in as much as I can on the linkage, test to see how much better it is, and look for additional ways to take more in (and look for the compass manual to figure out how to take it off).

If none of that works, I can try to have the lever bent a little.
Have you checked the Critical Upgrades topic?  IIRC, there's a link to the Westerbeke service bulletins.
I could not find a link by manually scanning the topic. Most message boards have a "search within topic" option, but I can't find it here. Am I missing it? Searching the whole message board generated too many spurious hits.

I did find some TSBs on the Westerbeke website. The one on shift lever (SB36) seemed to just say the same thing that the manual already says.

Rick, we can't possibly know what you read or didn't, what search terms you used, or what you consider spurious,  :D :D :D  so this is the one I meant:

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.msg31122.html#msg31122

The Critical Upgrades topic is all of four pages, so a search within a search is kinda unnecessary.  We've recommended that folks print them out, too.

I think you get the points made that there are two ends.  I thought your answer was very funny.   :clap Thx.
Thanks to Stu for editing his message today to add the nonexistent link. That is one of the messages I had found by reading the whole topic last night, but I did not realize it was the one he was referring to because it lacked a link. Unfortunately the link that he added today generates a 404 error.

I still am curious whether there is a method to search only within a topic. Other message boards that I use do have such a feature, and I think they use the same web software. So maybe the feature is there and I just can't find it. This tech question is broader than that one thread - other threads can be very long and limiting a search to within a thread can get very targeted hits. I didn't mean for that to be funny.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on September 17, 2016, 04:56:31 PM
Don't of course know your compass, but mine has 4 Phillips head, vertical screws around the  outside black rim.  She lifts off with those removed and I can get at 4 slotted head bolts that hold the riser above the steering guts. 
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Stu Jackson on September 17, 2016, 06:07:26 PM
Rick,

My compass comes off if you twist the whole housing.  Couldn't be simpler.

I clicked the link and it works for me.  Alternatively,as you did, just go read them.

If you use the Google search engine on this forum it may alleviate your concern about a search within a topic.  It's discussed in one of the stickies.  You are the very first person to ever mention this on this forum in the 15 years I've been on it.  It might be helpful, and if you want to pursue it, why not discuss it with the webmaster?  It may actually be available, I personally don't know.  I'm just the secretary of the association.  I tend to provide links in almost all of my replies, as others have taken the idea, too.  I just hate retyping stuff. :D 
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on September 17, 2016, 07:44:07 PM
If you use the Google search engine on this forum it may alleviate your concern about a search within a topic.  It's discussed in one of the stickies.  You are the very first person to ever mention this on this forum in the 15 years I've been on it.  It might be helpful, and if you want to pursue it, why not discuss it with the webmaster?  It may actually be available, I personally don't know.


Break (1-9?) ...

Use the search (the link on the main c34 page) not the search in the forum.  "Search within" is certainly nice, but that feature simply adds another search term to the one(s) you originally searched on.  So, whatever your results are for your initial search, just add your desired "search within" term to the search box and "research" (couldn't resist.)

Better yet, after your initial search, do an advanced search (click the gear icon, upper right on the google results page > "Advanced search") and you have powerful options to dial in what you're looking for.

-kk
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on September 17, 2016, 10:10:52 PM
...To fix it I made all of my adjustments below the aft cabin where the transmission cable has a screw on attachment a little ways behind the transmission that allows you to adjust the cable forward or backward slightly, but enough for me, relative to the transmission...
I think I found the attachment that you're referring to, but it has a distinctive notch in it that mates with a groove in the end of the cable, so I can't adjust the cable fore-aft at all.

I attempted to thread the linkage tie end further onto the cable (effectively shortening it), but it immediately bottomed out. The thread is 10-32, so I threaded it into my bolt cutter and tried to cut off about 12 turns to allow me to thread the linkage on further, but that cutter is very weak (pretty much just works for brass screws), so I couldn't do that. That's a good thing, because afterwards I concluded that the best way to fix this without doing anything irreversible is to cut new holes into the mounting plate so it mounts 1/2" further back.The plate already has a bunch of extra holes (presumably for use with different transmission models), and there is already a hole right where I want it. All I need to do is make that hole a little bigger and cut a second hole, and I can mount this thing in the perfect position. And if it doesn't work, I just mount it with the original holes.

My compass housing turns a few degrees each direction, and doing it back-and-forth repeatedly caused it to ride up and come off. (Much simpler than the compass on my old C250.) Underneath is a mounting plate with four screws as described above. I'll take that off in the morning when I have light and have a look at everything. If there's a way to shorten the cable from there I may try it, otherwise I'm going to drill the holes in the mounting plate.

Another change I plan to make is to cut the wood cover under the aft berth right where the seam is between the two cushions. That will facilitate quick access to the front part, where the Racor, raw water strainer, transmission, and muffler are all located, all of which might need to be accessed quickly in the event of a malfunction. Has anyone else done that? It seems silly to have this one huge cover that is so cumbersome to remove.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on September 17, 2016, 11:05:33 PM
Under the "hollow" riser that holds the compass you'll find a clevis fork threaded onto the cable (similar to the adjustment at the tranny end).  My clevis pins are held with cotter pins, some may have external spring clips.  The only difficult part is working in the small space and if course not dropping the clips/cotter and clevis pin.  There's also screws to adjust more/less tension on the control handle axle (if your throttle tends to vibrate backward like mine did.)

-kk
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: capndon on September 18, 2016, 08:21:11 AM
Sorry for your transmission cable issue. As to your aft cabin access issue, I too struggled with that d@^m board! By all means cut it where the cushions meet. That is exactly what I have done and it has greatly facilitated access. I can't believe I suffered with it for as long as I did before finally cutting it!!
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Stu Jackson on September 18, 2016, 08:57:28 AM
Another change I plan to make is to cut the wood cover under the aft berth right where the seam is between the two cushions. That will facilitate quick access to the front part, where the Racor, raw water strainer, transmission, and muffler are all located, all of which might need to be accessed quickly in the event of a malfunction. Has anyone else done that? It seems silly to have this one huge cover that is so cumbersome to remove.

I cut that one.  I cut the one in the V berth.  I cut the one over the holding tank and macerator.  I trimmed the one under the starboard settee for access to the forward section without having to lift all the cushions.  The Mark Is are different since none of our cushions has hard underneath parts, they're real cushions.  Have at it.  Glad to hear you're making progress.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: awesome34 on September 18, 2016, 10:16:44 AM
I think you found what I was talking about.  I simple moved the cable back in the clamp about as far as I was comfortable that the clamp would still hold the cable and that was enough of an adjustment for me. There is separation in the cable that is ideal for the clamp's notch in my cable, as well, so it might be more ideal to adjust at the compass to keep that clamp in the notch, but I found that the clamp holds quite strong where I was able to put it, although you may want more of an adjustment than I did. I think I removed my compass the first time the problem occurred and felt like there were a lot more ways for me to screw up a repair up there than down below, but you and others may feel differently. Although, I may have purchased some longer screws to hold the clamp in after the boatyard guy managed to accidentally yank the cable out while installing a drip-less shaft.  Maybe I shouldn't be, but I am comfortable with it now and it has worked so far for me. I have attached pictures of how my cable is attached in case that might help. 
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on September 18, 2016, 12:56:47 PM
Thanks for the pics! That's exactly what I have, but I was not comfortable moving the notch outside the groove. And it would definitely need longer screws, as the ones in there are barely long enough with the notch in place.

Before I summarize what I did today, I do want to mention that I discovered that my transmission fluid dipstick has no sealing ring at the top. Does anyone have a suggested replacement that I can find in a brick&mortar auto store? It looks like it would need a fiber washer with ID of 5/8" (16 mm).

I finished removing the compass today and looked down at the chain and linkages. I'm not going to attempt adjusting the linkages there. In addition to the risk of dropping something down the "chimney," those linkages are very long, and you can't just twist them without grabbing the push rods and/or lock nuts. Those elements are buried way too deep to get to. Unless I was seeing it wrong, the only way to adjust would be to remove the cable. I think drilling a new hole in the mounting plate to shift it aft by 1/2" will be a much simpler solution, and fully reversible if I need to put it back the way it is currently.

In looking over things closely, I'm pretty sure this transmission was removed and repainted, presumably as part of a rebuild. There is paperwork from the previous owner indicating that he paid someone to remove it for inspection, but no paperwork that any follow-up work was done. But by the looks of things I'd say it was rebuilt, and I may be about to solve the root cause that led to the rebuild. On the surface this looks like a clear-cut case. The cable only pulls the shift lever into forward by 1" due to binnacle interference, vs. a spec of ~1.2" (for inner holes), but it pushes the lever into reverse by up to 2". So it seems obvious that moving the cable back by 1/2" will make the lever motion symmetrical and well above spec in both directions. Service manual clearly says:

Quote
A greater amount of shift lever travel is in no way detrimental and is recommended. However, if the lever travel is shorter, proper clutch engagement might be impeded....This would be indicated by slow clutch engagement or no engagement at all.
...which is exactly what I was experiencing.

I'm pretty excited about this, because it really looks like symptoms and solution line up perfectly. While I wish the PO had fixed this before I took ownership, it's nice to have a clear solution. My pre-purchase surveyor and sea trial captain (owner was absent) had warned me to keep an eye out for this due to the interference from the binnacle tube, but they considered the shifting to be acceptable.

Finally, I have a question. As inevitably happens, you put everything back together and one extra part remains. After reassembling my compass, I found the below sticker on my cockpit sole. The adhesive had dried and it fell off from somewhere. Any clues where it was attached?
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Stu Jackson on September 18, 2016, 09:23:07 PM
Before I summarize what I did today, I do want to mention that I discovered that my transmission fluid dipstick has no sealing ring at the top. Does anyone have a suggested replacement that I can find in a brick&mortar auto store? It looks like it would need a fiber washer with ID of 5/8" (16 mm).

It's called ACE Hardware.  Really.  A good hardware store has just about everything you need for your boat.  You could go online at McMaster Carr, but you might have to find different sizes thst span what you "may" have.

Go to your local hardware store.  You won't be sorry.  Unless you have a really crappy store. 
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on September 19, 2016, 03:18:31 AM
Before I summarize what I did today, I do want to mention that I discovered that my transmission fluid dipstick has no sealing ring at the top. Does anyone have a suggested replacement that I can find in a brick&mortar auto store? It looks like it would need a fiber washer with ID of 5/8" (16 mm).

It's called ACE Hardware.  Really.  A good hardware store has just about everything you need for your boat.  You could go online at McMaster Carr, but you might have to find different sizes thst span what you "may" have.

Go to your local hardware store.  You won't be sorry.  Unless you have a really crappy store.
I had already gone to two stores when I posted (one hardware, one auto parts) and could not find a part that would work. That's why I posted here.

The problem is that the sealing rings with 5/8" ID are too wide to fit in the spot (OD too large to fit in the flat area). A ring with the proper ID that is not too wide seems to be difficult to find, so I'm asking here if anyone has found these parts at a B&M store, and if so where.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on September 19, 2016, 01:21:45 PM

My ZF distributor has the OE part in stock.  $4.00 a pop. But first I would first get a fiber washer w/ ID that fits the external threads, and Dremel or bench grinder away the unneeded excess OD.

You're more likely to find one that fits in a good plumbing supply house than an auto parts.  There is probably a red or white 16mm fiber (maybe even nylon) faucet "cap nut gasket" that fits it - they are typically very thin (diameter-wise that is) because there's not much shoulder on a cap nut.  My poorly stocked hardware has a rack with drawers containing 25-30 different size loose ones.  The problem w/ Ace is that they have gone to everything being prepackaged and if it doesn't have a SKU or bar code number, they don't can't even order it from the warehouse anymore. 

-ken
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Noah on September 19, 2016, 07:48:30 PM
Come on Ken...really? That's a "long way to go" to save $4. Even if you add shipping, heck throw in two of them.... What would you charge to go to the store, shop around and then break out the Dremel, and vice... Ok maybe vice grips and one hand it... and, and...?
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on September 19, 2016, 08:39:45 PM
I'm at a loss to see the prob,  Noah?

I never commented  on the cost.

If one reads the entire thread and not just the last post, he already found the correct ID, but the OD was too generous.  Just suggested a quick fix (I thought maybe that might not have occurred   to him).  I'll be glad to order and ship as many as you or anyone  wants. 


Although, $4 a pop, plus probably 10 bucks UPS min charge from the distributor and another 67  cents for me to mail - and no doubt 6 days total, doesn't make a lot of sense to me if I can support a local biz that has the right size (cap nut gasket), or I can take 5 min to file down a fiber washer. 


Actually if I knew the max OD, today I would have picked up a gasket while I was at the hw store and mailed it n/c.   If you or someone else cares to let me know' I'll be glad to.


-kk

Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on September 19, 2016, 09:32:38 PM
Breakin'


Which size is closest?  --- I presume you may still have the dipstick and can measure the hex head.

I read that the size was 16 mm -- not sure if that's the ID, or if the ID is actually 17mm (for a 16mm bolt.)

-kk
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Noah on September 19, 2016, 11:21:44 PM

My ZF distributor has the OE part in stock.  $4.00 a pop. But first I would first get a fiber washer w/ ID that fits the external threads, and Dremel or bench grinder away the unneeded excess OD.
-ken

All I was saying was if the OEM part was available for $4.00, I wouldn't spend my time (money) and energy, shopping/looking for one that was "close" and then jerry rigging or machine it to fit...Maybe just me?
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on September 20, 2016, 11:02:02 AM
I read your transmission 5 by 5, Noah.  Maybe mine was garbled so I rephrase: Why jump on me for offering Breakin two alternatives (and never commented on the cost)??  Crap, the memo wasn't really clear on this -- is supposed to be one idea per individual post? Or one idea total?  OEM preferred, right?  I'm all in for that.  C'mon let's you and me hunt down Breakin and beat the snot out of him for even thinking about a 49-cent part in the first place vs a $4 part.

** It's all good Noah -- I'm just bustin on you   :D (or pickin' at yah -- as we say on our end of the 32nd parallel.)

But you posted before you have the wherewithal to pay more for convenience -- so the OEM delivered right to your doorstep will be $17.42 for two sealing rings.  How many are yah in for?  You can Paypal me,  C'mon, pony up. It'll make good Karma, or make Karma good as it were.  Buy 25 and they ship n/c.  Pass 'em out to dock mates - like lighting cigars with two, two-dollar bills.  Really good Karma.

Oppps, pickin' again.  It's a slow day over here -- gettin punchy.  Sarchasm and pickin' no extra charge  :D

Anyone else countin' dimes (not to "overpay" vs "right-pay,") -- if someone will pass me the proper (ID/OD) size -- better to have it tight so it stays captive above the threads -- I'll mail yah the 4-cent aftermarket for n/c.   Yah don't even have to send me a S.A.S.E.

Remember, it's all good.
-kk
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on September 20, 2016, 07:21:45 PM
Stores #3 and 4 were a bust the past two days. Empty pegs on the M16 washers.

One of my challenges, of course, is that I've never seen the correct washer. I measured the plug's OD to the tips of the threads (i.e., washer ID) as 5/8" or 16mm. Getting a good look at the dipstick hole to see the correct washer ID was not possible. So not really sure what the OD should be.

I was able to find an O-ring which I am sure would be a good fit, and would do fine to prevent metal-to-metal contact on the drain plug. Are there issues here? I assume the transmission gets warm, but probably not too hot. And I don't think tranny fluid is going to attack an O-ring. Are there pressure issues if an O-ring makes too good a seal? I read somewhere else that a (different model?) Hurth transmission has a vent hole in the dipstick nut, and someone lost their dipstick and replaced it with a rubber stopper which sealed it too well and blow out some other seals. I read that on the Internet, so it must be true!   :thumb:
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Noah on September 20, 2016, 07:33:43 PM
If anyone has the source for the correct washer (4 bucks or 14 bucks) lets help the guy out and send him the part number and source to order one and let him decide at this point what is too much. Two stores later... and how many more? I'm done on this subject. Gone saiing 8)
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on September 20, 2016, 07:40:17 PM
Yes your dipstick should be hollow and the vent is completed via a hole through one side of the hex head. 

The head should not be just a hex -- it should have a round shoulder below it, so dipso, if the washer is approx the same OD as the round shoulder (that's about what the original is), then it will fit OK.  An O ring would be short term fix -- ti will push out around the shoulder if tightened significantly.  There;s another style crush washer that is neoprene surrounded by a metal cup washer (that's where I picked up the 16mm.)

If I had my dipstick here I could match it up, but it's an hour away.

-kk
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on September 20, 2016, 07:45:01 PM
Yeah, mine's two hours away, which makes it a pain. Last time I was down there I looked for the hole on top and didn't see one. I didn't think to look on the side, because it wasn't taken out at the time. I had noticed that the dipstick was hollow last time I pulled it out.

Sounds like the O-ring will be the temporary fix while I figure out the long-term fix. I got 10 of them for about $2, so that should last awhile. I'll look for signs that it's squeezing out and avoid over-tightening.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on September 20, 2016, 07:57:37 PM
I put a shout out to my C30 folks -- some have their boats at their house, so I may have an answer tomorrow.

-ken
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on September 25, 2016, 07:26:53 PM
FYI, I drilled a new hole in the mounting plate, and expanded an existing one, so that I now have a pair of holes exactly 1/2" away from the current holes. While I was at it, I used a bench grinder with wire brush attachment to take off all rust, and repainted the thing. Friday night I went down to the boat and reinstalled the plate and shift cable, and now the transmission's shift lever travels exactly 35mm in both directions. For the inner hole attachment, minimum travel spec is 30mm, so the travel now exceeds the minimum by a comfortable amount in both directions.

There is still a slight delay in the transmission engaging in forward, but it is consistent and repeatable. And the shifting action is very smooth.

I went through the service history file for the boat, and found paperwork indicating that the previous owner sent out the transmission for a complete rebuild in early 2015 (due to rough shifting), then had an unexpected move out of the area before the rebuild was complete. The boat stayed on the hard until my sea trial about 18 months later. So when I purchased the boat it had a newly rebuilt and unused transmission.

I do wonder if the rough shifting and transmission rebuild (at only 468 hours) was due to this poorly adjusted shift linkage. Whether or not, I am glad I picked up on this problem, as it should hopefully extend the life of the rebuilt transmission.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on September 25, 2016, 07:27:48 PM
I can mail you a 5/8 x 3/4" or 5/8 x 7/8" fiber washer to try (depending on which OD works for your flange bolt head and where it sits -- or a crush washer (which I believe is OE) but theoretically that;s good for only one use, so I'd use a fiber washer.

kk
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on September 27, 2016, 11:53:46 AM
I can mail you a 5/8 x 3/4" or 5/8 x 7/8" fiber washer to try (depending on which OD works for your flange bolt head and where it sits -- or a crush washer (which I believe is OE) but theoretically that;s good for only one use, so I'd use a fiber washer.

kk
Thanks for the offer! Still trying to pop into another store or two, but had difficulty getting out of work before they close. I'll let you know.

For now, I have an O-ring there, but would like to move to fiber ASAP. It may be another week before I know, because I need to get to the boat to look it over. If you go to this trouble for me, I want to be sure you get the right size. ID is definitely no larger than 16 mm, based on how the O-ring fits.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on September 27, 2016, 12:20:39 PM
I have the C30 folks checking for me also -- they are saying 5/8" ID and the flange bolt head is 13/16".  But I'm not sure if a 7/8" will fit the recess (not near my transmission.)

-k
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on September 27, 2016, 12:56:56 PM
I have the C30 folks checking for me also -- they are saying 5/8" ID and the flange bolt head is 13/16".  But I'm not sure if a 7/8" will fit the recess (not near my transmission.)

-k
Actually, after closer inspection this past weekend, on my transmission there isn't really a recess. There's a pretty wide flat area around the female threads, with a very slightly raised "lip" in the middle of the flat area. It looks like even if the spacer was too wide, the fiber spacer might deform over top the little lip. So it might not be critical have the OD inside this lip. Unfortunately, I meant to measure all this stuff, but I crawled out of the area to get a measuring device, and got involved with something else and forgot to go back and measure it. So that's why it has to wait until next weekend (or later, depending on some other weekend commitments). While I don't think it's critical, I want to double-check it first.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on September 27, 2016, 01:18:05 PM
Not every HB has a recess, some are flush, some raised. I have to order 50 or 100 of the buggers, so want to make sure they are "universal." 

I've seen pics of ones that would defo take an 1" OD washer, some with a recess on the bolt flange.  Yah nevah know.

(http://www.realitycheck.me/gallery/transmission/slides/Hurth%20transmission%20dip%20stick.JPG)

Note the vent hole below on the hex head.

-k
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Stu Jackson on September 27, 2016, 05:17:53 PM
and the flange bolt head is 13/16". 

Mine is 11/16ths.  M25 engine
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on September 27, 2016, 06:21:01 PM
Thank you!  I misquoted myself.....

The flange bolt FLANGE is 13/16".
Isn't the hex actually metric?  Can't recall, I've just had a wrench wrapped with red electrical tape for 20 years - never look at the size!
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on September 27, 2016, 06:33:20 PM
Yes, it's all metric.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on November 15, 2016, 09:16:38 AM
I did finally find a fiber washer that fits well on the dipstick for my M35B motor/transmission. It is 5/8" ID, 3/4" OD (thus 1/16" wide"), and 1/16" thick. 40 cents at True Value. Pics attached with part numbers.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Solitaire on April 08, 2017, 10:40:15 PM
I too have problems shifting into forward gear. When coming off the mooring, it takes four attempts before I'm successful, that is I push into forward gear, wait a bit, then a little accelerator, but nothing then back to neutral and try again.

I've had my boat (C34 Mark II #1801) about eighteen months. When I bought it, the Edson shift lever was hitting against the pedestal guard tube. Last September I replaced the original two lever system with an Edson single lever side mounted engine control.Now the lever doesn't hit anything.

My mechanic says he's adjusted the cable as much as possible and that now the gearbox needs to be pulled out and overhauled, in particular the shift selector.The only thing that makes me question this advice is that once I've been motoring for a while, say fifteen minutes, and I take it out of gear, it will go into gear on the first attempt every time. This may be a co-incidence or it may be related to the gearbox warming up. I would have thought that if the problem was cable adjustment, the problem would remain regardless of how long the engine had been running. The engine (M-35B) only has about 260 hours on it, so the gearbox should not be too worn.

Does anyone have any suggestions on solving this problem?

Thanks
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Jack Hutteball on April 09, 2017, 10:46:24 AM
Solitaire,

I had the same problem with our boat within the first year we bought it.  Had less than 50 hours on the engine.  Had the dealer adjust it twice (not resolved and the lever was not hitting the pedestal guard) It was pulled from the boat twice and worked on by a locale mechanic which did not solve the problem.  It was replaced under warranty as no one could find the problem.  I was fortunate to have that happen the first year.  I have always felt it was a defect in the manufacturing  process, but do not know for certain.

Jack
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: lazybone on April 09, 2017, 11:03:03 AM
Try disconnecting the shift cable from the transmission linkage and operating the trans shift arm by hand.  Take note if it travels farther. 
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on April 09, 2017, 03:04:41 PM
I too have problems shifting into forward gear. When coming off the mooring, it takes four attempts before I'm successful, that is I push into forward gear, wait a bit, then a little accelerator, but nothing then back to neutral and try again.

I've had my boat (C34 Mark II #1801) about eighteen months. When I bought it, the Edson shift lever was hitting against the pedestal guard tube. Last September I replaced the original two lever system with an Edson single lever side mounted engine control.Now the lever doesn't hit anything.

My mechanic says he's adjusted the cable as much as possible and that now the gearbox needs to be pulled out and overhauled, in particular the shift selector.The only thing that makes me question this advice is that once I've been motoring for a while, say fifteen minutes, and I take it out of gear, it will go into gear on the first attempt every time. This may be a co-incidence or it may be related to the gearbox warming up. I would have thought that if the problem was cable adjustment, the problem would remain regardless of how long the engine had been running. The engine (M-35B) only has about 260 hours on it, so the gearbox should not be too worn.

Does anyone have any suggestions on solving this problem?

Thanks
I'm sorry to hear that you may have wasted your money on a shift arm that didn't fix the problem.

I think your mechanic may be lacking a little creativity in saying that he's adjusted the cable as much as possible. He (or you) can drill another hole or two in the mounting plate and get a whole lot more adjustment latitude. That resolved the issue for me. See my replies #22 and 27 for information on this.

But before you do that, you need to refer to your engine manual for the specs on how far the shift lever (on the transmission itself) should be moving. There should be a couple of specs listed, depending on which hole your cable is connecting to. (I suggest the inner hole, as that gives the longest travel of the lever.) Actuate the shift lever at the transmission with the shift cable attached, since that will let you know if your cockpit lever is limiting the motion. The travel should be the same forward and aft, and greater than the mfr spec in each direction. If not, then you you need to get it right, possibly by repositioning the mounting plate as I described in reply #22 and 27.

I would not consider a rebuild unless you confirm that the shift lever complies with mfg specs, because if you rebuild and the problem goes away, it may come back later due to wear/damage from the shift lever not moving far enough.

My own transmission was rebuilt by the prior owner, and I wonder if the shift lever being out of spec is what required the rebuild in the first place.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on April 09, 2017, 03:27:08 PM
The service bulletin covering adjusting the travel is on the tech wiki.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on April 09, 2017, 07:39:41 PM
The service bulletin covering adjusting the travel is on the tech wiki.
It seems that there is a placeholder for it in the Wiki, but the actual link to the PDF is missing. (I can't find the message right now, but I remember us discussing this before and realizing Westerbeke had reorganized their website, breaking many of the Wiki's links):

https://www.westerbeke.com/service%20bulletin/sb_136.pdf

This 1984 service bulletin is unremarkable for owners of later engines, because our manuals were updated to incorporate its recommendations. However, the pictures can be useful for visualizing the required throw distance of the shift lever. (Picture worth a thousand words.)

As for the issue of the pedestal's shift lever not being able to throw the transmission's shift lever far enough to be in spec, please see my attached picture to see how I fixed the problem by adjusting the mounting plate. The two holes with worn paint around them are the ones that were originally used to mount this plate to the transmission. You can see by the red circles that I enlarged an adjacent hole, and drilled a new hole, which enabled mounting the plate 1/2" further aft, causing the shift cable to throw the shift lever symmetrically forward and reverse (with some minor adjustment on the normal linkage screws), and in agreement with Westerbeke's recommendation.

After drilling the holes where the red circles are, I polished the rust off of the mounting plate and painted it up nicely, but failed to get a picture of it. Next time I am down at the boat I'll get a picture of the modified plate as mounted on the transmission.

A little Google searching shows that this issue (insufficient throw into forward gear) is fairly common for the Hurth/Westerbeke installations on multiple boats, having been reported here and on Sailnet and CruisersForum, and elsewhere. So this modification does have potential to help a lot of people. But it all has to start with a measurement of the actual throw distance of the shift lever on the transmission. If the throw does not go far enough into forward gear (per Westerbeke's spec), my modification could help.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on April 09, 2017, 08:03:13 PM
 Au contraire, Mon ami

The link to the PDF's, is right there on the "manuals" TW Page, and I can open the link and PDFs on my iPhone, which is by design compatible with nothing else in the  Solar system and likely Milky Way, and locks up about every third time I open a browser ---  so I have high confidence it's OK on a PC.

Here's the entry:
Universal/Westerbeke Searchable (PDF) Service Bulletins

 I feel your pain about Westerbeke's website, and I tend to shy far away from posting links to webspaces because they are constantly changing.

Ken
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on April 09, 2017, 08:14:17 PM
I did not make this up.

I went to the section that seemed to make sense: Diesel Engine - Mechanical

http://c34.org/wikiwp/?rdp_we_resource=http%3A%2F%2Fc34.org%2Fwiki%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3DDiesel_Engine#Mechanical

Scroll to the text that says "Transmissions:Hurth Transmission Cable Adjustment PDF file" to confirm that it is a dead link.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on April 09, 2017, 08:30:00 PM
Ahhh ha.
. Thanks for letting me know that precise location. GONE.

It's an example of what as a project manager I warn people of, "double specifying quote, will you will you call the same thing out twice.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on April 09, 2017, 08:33:30 PM
Twice on the same drawing or whatever.  There's a 100% chance that at some point at least at least 50% of them will end up wrong.

 I'm trying to do away with double posting directly to manuals etc. because there's too many places in TW that you need to revise if there's a change. I've made a note to replace it with a link to the manual's page where they will reside. That way  it's easier to manage all at one location, and if there's a revision It needs to be done only one location.

Thanks for the heads up!!

Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Breakin Away on April 09, 2017, 08:36:30 PM
No worries. I realize that it's always a work in progress.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: Solitaire on April 10, 2017, 03:12:51 AM
Thanks everyone for your advise and comments.

Being a relatively new boat owner, I don't have much experience and I was accepting my mechanic's advice that the cable was adjusted as good as it could be. Today I checked the travel of the shift lever and found it only moved 29 mm in forward and 40  mm in reverse whereas it should be 35 mm at least in both directions. No wonder I'm having trouble getting into forward! So that's obviously the first thing that needs to be done before any work is done on the gearbox.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on April 10, 2017, 09:29:49 AM
 That reminds me of my M-I-L's favorite axioms (to which I have added my own experience): "Just because someone does it for a living (and has a sign on the side of the pickup truck, or some letters after their name) doesn't necessarily mean that they're good at it."   Sad but true.

All owners have to find out as much as they can about their boats and boat systems, and use their gut and common sense when hiring out work.

For instance, when checking around to have work done, ask things like, "How many times have you run across this problem on an "xyz (engine/boat/rudder/fuller/ whatever",) and what was the range of cost to fix it?"

Every owner, especially new ones, need to use all their available resources-especially those here!!  And other owner experiences before plunking down the cash.  Unless of course one has the wherewithal and a fat checkbook, and has made the decision that they don't mind plunking down that cash even when it's unnecessary or overcharged.

Sailors, and boaters in general are odd ducks. We oftentimes tend to use "new to" as an crutch for not knowing something.   It's not a crutch; being "new to" = a REQUIREMENT that we learn all we can about our vessels.   Or again, make the conscious decision that cost isn't an issue.  True story: "My ex-husband used to take care of the cars so I'm new to all this. I bought the 50/50 mix, but I didn't realize that (pointing) the anti-freeze goes in here, and not over here (the oil filler.)"

kk

Title: Re: Difficulty shifting into forward
Post by: KWKloeber on April 10, 2017, 10:18:26 AM
Bringing this home to a personal experience......  soon after purchasing her, I experienced overheating on my C-30 M-25.  The yard/broker/Catalina dealer recommended that their diesel mechanic take a look-see.

After two evenings of fiddling, and replacing the thermostat, pressure cap, and gauge sender, he said he didn't know what the problem was and that he'd run out of ideas.  And, that the gate mixing valve between the heat exchanger return hose and to coolant line to water heater, was added by "someone" and he didn't know why it was there.  He wanted to charge me for only the parts, but I threw a little cash his way to cover some of his time.

The next day the C-30 Association 3-ring Tech Talk binder arrived in the mail and I read it cover to cover (before Gore invented the internet.)  That evening after work I burped the cooling system.  And subsequently learned that the C-30s were quirky because the water heater was the highest and air-lock-settling point, and that the mixing valve was Catalina OEM supplied on circa '84 M-25s.

I don't know if there was a sign on, nor even if he had, a pickup truck--but he was the Buffalo area Catalina DEALER's mechanic.

kk