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Author Topic: smile repair  (Read 270 times)

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mdidomenico

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smile repair
« on: June 05, 2021, 02:00:05 PM »

as i am embark on tasks to getting back in the water, next on the list is smile repair.  what follows is just what i'm doing, here's where we started
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mdidomenico

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Re: smile repair
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2021, 02:01:56 PM »

and here, i've ground down quite a bit.  i definitely saw some delam from the steel as i was going along.  but i think i've gone far enough that there's a pretty good bond.  i need to get some cloth and maybe some resin
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Noah

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Re: smile repair
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2021, 02:13:07 PM »

and here, i've ground down quite a bit.  i definitely saw some delam from the steel as i was going along.  but i think i've gone far enough that there's a pretty good bond.  i need to get some cloth and maybe some resin

Perhaps you made a typo, but to clarify: the ballast keel is lead. No steel in there, except for stainless steel keel bolts.
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KWKloeber

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Re: smile repair
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2021, 03:09:58 PM »

Looks like it may have been “fixed” (not) before with pink Bondo?

Looks like I can see an actual open joint at the bow and up both sides that wasn’t “fixed” last time?
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mdidomenico

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Re: smile repair
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2021, 03:17:23 PM »

Perhaps you made a typo, but to clarify: the ballast keel is lead. No steel in there, except for stainless steel keel bolts.

i thought it was lead as well, but i wasn't sure after i started grinding it.  i thought it might be cast iron, it doesn't "look" like lead.  it doesn't spark when the flap disc hits it, so i'm liable to agree it's lead, its just shinier then i expected
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mdidomenico

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Re: smile repair
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2021, 03:22:56 PM »

Looks like it may have been “fixed” (not) before with pink Bondo?
Looks like I can see an actual open joint at the bow and up both sides that wasn’t “fixed” last time?

i'm not sure, but i was thinking along the same lines. the PO never mentioned anything about the keel being repaired.  but it definitely seems a tad bulkier in this section then i'd expect.  so either the catalina yard had a new guy, the PO told me and i forgot, or it just looks a little funny because their hand built.

there's definitely a "crack" between the keel and ballast at the front.  one thing that makes me think there wasn't a previous repair is that there doesn't seem to be a wad shmoo in the joint i have to dig out.  and I'm the second owner of this vessel.

i'm going to wedge the front of the ballast and see if i can close the gap any and then tighten the keel bolts, but that's next weekend
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KWKloeber

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Re: smile repair
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2021, 05:16:59 PM »


i'm not sure, but i was thinking along the same lines. the PO never mentioned anything about the keel being repaired.  but it definitely seems a tad bulkier in this section then i'd expect.  so either the catalina yard had a new guy, the PO told me and i forgot, or it just looks a little funny because their hand built.

there's definitely a "crack" between the keel and ballast at the front.  one thing that makes me think there wasn't a previous repair is that there doesn't seem to be a wad shmoo in the joint i have to dig out. 

i'm going to wedge the front of the ballast and see if i can close the gap any and then tighten the keel bolts, but that's next weekend

It may have been the initial pic I saw that appeared to be a streak of pink over the lead -- maybe it's just a miscoloring.  It's defo lead -- it can be very shiny (think solder) and especially when hit with a sander/grinder and oxidation is removed.

From the streaking down aft end of the smile IIWMB I'd be chasing that open joint as far aft as necessary until I was convinced there was entirely good and solid, non-punky, joint material (polyester resin mung.)  I would be inclined to get water into the bilge and see what/where it exits -- it might be a telltale as far as limiting the amount of work (or revealing a larger issue that needs to be addressed.)  It might be a bad joint as far aft as your Gabbard drain?

Once I had it exposed I drilled into my joint 1/2 way through sideways from both sides periodically and could tell the condition by the material coming out (like damp drywall vs. hard chips.)  I have posted before that when I rebed (@ ~11-12 years young,) I discovered a punky joint that extended much farther than showed up on the exterior smile/crack.   It was bad about 1/3 to 1/2 the length of the keel joint. 

If it was "fixed" before I wouldn't be surprised if there's no schmoo in the crack -- it might have been just an aesthetic patch-over.  The amount of material there doesn't look excessive to me -- considering the whole fairing job that's done to blend the keel into the keel stub.

Not being hand on, my guess is the joint might be missing material (not simply opened-up space) -- you should see a layer of solid, hard, white mung between the lead and keel stub.  Mine was like 3/8" thick on the stbd side and 1/4" to port.  It will be interesting to see if you can tighten the joint.  I have my own questions about the cause (not the accepted doctrine that it's from improper blocking.) No one has ever successfully explained how two straight objects (the lead keel and stiff keel stub -- picture two 8x8 planks that cannot not bend) can open up at one end only due to not supporting one end.  If that's the cause then an open joint needed to extend from the widest point at one end all the way to being tightly closed at the other end.  And also no one has ever explained how this occurs only in a static condition (with the boat blocked, nothing moving to open the joint, and nothing acting except vertical weight) but it doesn't occur when the entire keel weight (less its bouyancy) is hanging from the keel stub, and the joint is being acted upon and twisted and abused with every wave and bounce when that same weight is heeled back and forth.  That doesn't exert as much force on the joint as when the hull is blocked absolutely vertical?  Really?

Since your hull # has the wood in the keel stub, be cautious of tightening the bolts.  If it's rotted, it's possible to simply keep digging the nuts in and compressing the fiberglass bilge down into the punky wood. 
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
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mdidomenico

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Re: smile repair
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2021, 09:12:50 AM »

lots of good thoughts.  not sure how far i want to open the can of worms at this point.  i ground back until i couldn't see any delam on the surface of the ballast without going at it with a coal chisel and a drill.  i think that's as far as i'm going to go.  at least for this season.  i have to weigh the work vs getting back in the water, and i have a bunch of other tasks.  i'm going to dig around a little with a hook and see what i can pull out and then squirt some 5200 and then biaxial glass over top, then fair and paint.  if the joint separates again then i'll probably consider pushing a lot deeper, if i go that route i might even cover it with carbon fiber or kevlar glass.

i thought, from other posts, my hull number put me just past when they started going glass instead of wood.  my impression (perhaps wrong), was the wood was in the 86, 87, and part/most of the way through 88.  my hull number CTYP0856H889.  i'd contemplated drilling a hole in the bilge to see what comes out, but i was unsure and it seemed like a bad idea
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mdidomenico

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Re: smile repair
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2021, 09:14:50 AM »

i also see what you mean about chasing it to the drip stain.  i'm not sure if that's an illusion with the camera or if i just stopped for some reason.  looking at the picture, i probably will chase it a little farther
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Noah

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Re: smile repair
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2021, 09:49:21 AM »

I also believe you are past the cut-off hull number/date for wood in the bilge... but in any case, I see no harm and recommend, you tighten the keel bolts to 107 lbs. while the boat is on the hard—before you start any fiberglassing.
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KWKloeber

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Re: smile repair
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2021, 10:31:32 AM »

[EDITED]

i also see what you mean about chasing it to the drip stain.  i'm not sure if that's an illusion with the camera or if i just stopped for some reason.  looking at the picture, i probably will chase it a little farther

You’re correct about the wood!! My error - my CRS thought the transition was a later date.

It appeared that the ground-away portion toward the back ran off a little low, so didn’t fully expose the joint.  Could be an illusion.

The idea of the water in the bilge was so you didn’t cover up a potential problem and have to come back at it again. The concept (at least when I did mine) was not only to fix the cracking (aesthetic) of the fairing but also remove the source of what deteriorated (bilge water) the joint material (polyester, which water attacks.). That required my sealing around each keel bolt/washer, so I was thinking better to find that out before torquing them.

5200 or G/Flex - I’d think either would work well so long as the deteriorated joint material isn’t too deep. If it was then I’d have chosen to replace the deteriorated joint w/ epoxy to add structural strength - maybe way overkill but I followed Gougeon Bros lead on that not having done that type repair before (had I not instead removed the keel and ground away ALL bad/good joint material.)

[Edit] I meant to suggest getting a thin (1/16”) angle grinder blade and going the full depth straight in sideways along the joint (where there’s any bad material) to get the “refill” in as deep as possible.  Using a little more filler would be cheap insurance. The fairing delam is a symptom of the problem and you want to go after the cause so you don’t need to do it twice.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2021, 10:42:32 AM by KWKloeber »
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Noah

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Re: smile repair
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2021, 10:44:05 AM »

I would add water to the bilge after torquing however, either would be a good test. It may take awhile to see any results as the water migrates down and hard to know which bolt is leaking, if any.
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KWKloeber

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Re: smile repair
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2021, 08:29:40 AM »

Noah.
I don’t think it matters which is leaking ( seal them all before finishing the project i.e., torquing them all.)  It’s to help determine if there’s a water path from the bilge to the joint, which confirms that the joint material has deteriorated enough to result in that path. It’s not necessarily key to know from which bolt. If there is any water path then it may affect the current or future plan - at a minimum it’s just another telltale and piece of info to guide MD. Torquing before that could skew the info, and likely would take longer w/ water sitting there in order to gain that knowledge.  That’s my thinking anyway.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 11:32:13 AM by KWKloeber »
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

mdidomenico

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Re: smile repair
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2021, 01:15:42 PM »

some updated pictures.  i ground the crack a little more top/bottom and fore/aft.  i filled the bilge with water, but didn't see any streaking down the sides, so i'm not entirely sure the bilge leaked in between the keel/ballast and then out through the crack.

i did try to wedge the front to close the gap, but no go on that one.  i wedge some wood in there and pounded on it with a hammer, but no movement.  i also tightened the keel bolts to 110lbs.  i used a cheap kobalt torque wrench from lowes, so accuracy is with 10-20% at best.  i managed to get 1/3 to 1/2 turn on the back set and less on the front

everything looks secure back to where i ground so i'm going to call it good and put some goo in the crack and then fiberglass over it and call it good.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 01:16:36 PM by mdidomenico »
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Ron Hill

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Re: smile repair
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2021, 01:45:16 PM »

mdid : Beside the crack, I'm wondering where the RUST stain came from???  In the 1989 C34 production there should have been a solid fiberglass keel stub under the bilge! 

A thought
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