as i am embark on tasks to getting back in the water, next on the list is smile repair. what follows is just what i'm doing, here's where we started
and here, i've ground down quite a bit. i definitely saw some delam from the steel as i was going along. but i think i've gone far enough that there's a pretty good bond. i need to get some cloth and maybe some resin
Quote from: mdidomenico on June 05, 2021, 02:01:56 PM
and here, i've ground down quite a bit. i definitely saw some delam from the steel as i was going along. but i think i've gone far enough that there's a pretty good bond. i need to get some cloth and maybe some resin
Perhaps you made a typo, but to clarify: the ballast keel is lead. No steel in there, except for stainless steel keel bolts.
Looks like it may have been "fixed" (not) before with pink Bondo?
Looks like I can see an actual open joint at the bow and up both sides that wasn't "fixed" last time?
Quote from: Noah on June 05, 2021, 02:13:07 PM
Perhaps you made a typo, but to clarify: the ballast keel is lead. No steel in there, except for stainless steel keel bolts.
i thought it was lead as well, but i wasn't sure after i started grinding it. i thought it might be cast iron, it doesn't "look" like lead. it doesn't spark when the flap disc hits it, so i'm liable to agree it's lead, its just shinier then i expected
Quote from: KWKloeber on June 05, 2021, 03:09:58 PM
Looks like it may have been "fixed" (not) before with pink Bondo?
Looks like I can see an actual open joint at the bow and up both sides that wasn't "fixed" last time?
i'm not sure, but i was thinking along the same lines. the PO never mentioned anything about the keel being repaired. but it definitely seems a tad bulkier in this section then i'd expect. so either the catalina yard had a new guy, the PO told me and i forgot, or it just looks a little funny because their hand built.
there's definitely a "crack" between the keel and ballast at the front. one thing that makes me think there wasn't a previous repair is that there doesn't seem to be a wad shmoo in the joint i have to dig out. and I'm the second owner of this vessel.
i'm going to wedge the front of the ballast and see if i can close the gap any and then tighten the keel bolts, but that's next weekend
Quote from: mdidomenico on June 05, 2021, 03:22:56 PM
i'm not sure, but i was thinking along the same lines. the PO never mentioned anything about the keel being repaired. but it definitely seems a tad bulkier in this section then i'd expect. so either the catalina yard had a new guy, the PO told me and i forgot, or it just looks a little funny because their hand built.
there's definitely a "crack" between the keel and ballast at the front. one thing that makes me think there wasn't a previous repair is that there doesn't seem to be a wad shmoo in the joint i have to dig out.
i'm going to wedge the front of the ballast and see if i can close the gap any and then tighten the keel bolts, but that's next weekend
It may have been the initial pic I saw that appeared to be a streak of pink over the lead -- maybe it's just a miscoloring. It's defo lead -- it can be very shiny (think solder) and especially when hit with a sander/grinder and oxidation is removed.
From the streaking down aft end of the smile IIWMB I'd be chasing that open joint as far aft as necessary until I was convinced there was entirely good and solid, non-punky, joint material (polyester resin mung.) I would be inclined to get water into the bilge and see what/where it exits -- it might be a telltale as far as limiting the amount of work (or revealing a larger issue that needs to be addressed.) It might be a bad joint as far aft as your Gabbard drain?
Once I had it exposed I drilled into my joint 1/2 way through sideways from both sides periodically and could tell the condition by the material coming out (like damp drywall vs. hard chips.) I have posted before that when I rebed (@ ~11-12 years young,) I discovered a punky joint that extended much farther than showed up on the exterior smile/crack. It was bad about 1/3 to 1/2 the length of the keel joint.
If it was "fixed" before I wouldn't be surprised if there's no schmoo in the crack -- it might have been just an aesthetic patch-over. The amount of material there doesn't look excessive to me -- considering the whole fairing job that's done to blend the keel into the keel stub.
Not being hand on, my guess is the joint might be missing material (not simply opened-up space) -- you should see a layer of solid, hard, white mung between the lead and keel stub. Mine was like 3/8" thick on the stbd side and 1/4" to port. It will be interesting to see if you can tighten the joint. I have my own questions about the cause (not the accepted doctrine that it's from improper blocking.) No one has ever successfully explained how two straight objects (the lead keel and stiff keel stub -- picture two 8x8 planks that cannot not bend) can open up at one end only due to not supporting one end. If that's the cause then an open joint needed to extend from the widest point at one end all the way to being tightly closed at the other end. And also no one has ever explained how this occurs only in a static condition (with the boat blocked, nothing moving to open the joint, and nothing acting except vertical weight) but it doesn't occur when the entire keel weight (less its bouyancy) is hanging from the keel stub, and the joint is being acted upon and twisted and abused with every wave and bounce when that same weight is heeled back and forth. That doesn't exert as much force on the joint as when the hull is blocked absolutely vertical? Really?
Since your hull # has the wood in the keel stub, be cautious of tightening the bolts. If it's rotted, it's possible to simply keep digging the nuts in and compressing the fiberglass bilge down into the punky wood.
lots of good thoughts. not sure how far i want to open the can of worms at this point. i ground back until i couldn't see any delam on the surface of the ballast without going at it with a coal chisel and a drill. i think that's as far as i'm going to go. at least for this season. i have to weigh the work vs getting back in the water, and i have a bunch of other tasks. i'm going to dig around a little with a hook and see what i can pull out and then squirt some 5200 and then biaxial glass over top, then fair and paint. if the joint separates again then i'll probably consider pushing a lot deeper, if i go that route i might even cover it with carbon fiber or kevlar glass.
i thought, from other posts, my hull number put me just past when they started going glass instead of wood. my impression (perhaps wrong), was the wood was in the 86, 87, and part/most of the way through 88. my hull number CTYP0856H889. i'd contemplated drilling a hole in the bilge to see what comes out, but i was unsure and it seemed like a bad idea
i also see what you mean about chasing it to the drip stain. i'm not sure if that's an illusion with the camera or if i just stopped for some reason. looking at the picture, i probably will chase it a little farther
I also believe you are past the cut-off hull number/date for wood in the bilge... but in any case, I see no harm and recommend, you tighten the keel bolts to 107 lbs. while the boat is on the hard—before you start any fiberglassing.
[EDITED]
Quote from: mdidomenico on June 06, 2021, 09:14:50 AM
i also see what you mean about chasing it to the drip stain. i'm not sure if that's an illusion with the camera or if i just stopped for some reason. looking at the picture, i probably will chase it a little farther
You're correct about the wood!! My error - my CRS thought the transition was a later date.
It appeared that the ground-away portion toward the back ran off a little low, so didn't fully expose the joint. Could be an illusion.
The idea of the water in the bilge was so you didn't cover up a potential problem and have to come back at it again. The concept (at least when I did mine) was not only to fix the cracking (aesthetic) of the fairing but also remove the source of what deteriorated (bilge water) the joint material (polyester, which water attacks.). That required my sealing around each keel bolt/washer, so I was thinking better to find that out before torquing them.
5200 or G/Flex - I'd think either would work well so long as the deteriorated joint material isn't too deep. If it was then I'd have chosen to replace the deteriorated joint w/ epoxy to add structural strength - maybe way overkill but I followed Gougeon Bros lead on that not having done that type repair before (had I not instead removed the keel and ground away ALL bad/good joint material.)
[Edit] I meant to suggest getting a thin (1/16") angle grinder blade and going the full depth straight in sideways along the joint (where there's any bad material) to get the "refill" in as deep as possible. Using a little more filler would be cheap insurance. The fairing delam is a symptom of the problem and you want to go after the cause so you don't need to do it twice.
I would add water to the bilge after torquing however, either would be a good test. It may take awhile to see any results as the water migrates down and hard to know which bolt is leaking, if any.
Noah.
I don't think it matters which is leaking ( seal them all before finishing the project i.e., torquing them all.) It's to help determine if there's a water path from the bilge to the joint, which confirms that the joint material has deteriorated enough to result in that path. It's not necessarily key to know from which bolt. If there is any water path then it may affect the current or future plan - at a minimum it's just another telltale and piece of info to guide MD. Torquing before that could skew the info, and likely would take longer w/ water sitting there in order to gain that knowledge. That's my thinking anyway.
some updated pictures. i ground the crack a little more top/bottom and fore/aft. i filled the bilge with water, but didn't see any streaking down the sides, so i'm not entirely sure the bilge leaked in between the keel/ballast and then out through the crack.
i did try to wedge the front to close the gap, but no go on that one. i wedge some wood in there and pounded on it with a hammer, but no movement. i also tightened the keel bolts to 110lbs. i used a cheap kobalt torque wrench from lowes, so accuracy is with 10-20% at best. i managed to get 1/3 to 1/2 turn on the back set and less on the front
everything looks secure back to where i ground so i'm going to call it good and put some goo in the crack and then fiberglass over it and call it good.
mdid : Beside the crack, I'm wondering where the RUST stain came from??? In the 1989 C34 production there should have been a solid fiberglass keel stub under the bilge!
A thought
Md
Hard to tell from the pic but are you actually grinding on the joint or on the lead. When I draw a line // to the joint it appears that you ground 2-3" below the joint. Optical illusion maybe?
i slipped with the angle grinder. 40grit flap disc takes off a lot in a hurry, there's a slight ridge. the camera and sun make it look much worse then it really is. a quick knock down and it should be good
Quote from: Ron Hill on June 12, 2021, 01:45:16 PM
mdid : Beside the crack, I'm wondering where the RUST stain came from??? In the 1989 C34 production there should have been a solid fiberglass keel stub under the bilge!
dunno, it's possible it isn't rust at all but rather just dirt. (though i agree it does look like rust) the boat sat up on the hard for 5yrs before i got her, so it's also possible there was a leak through the keel bolts that's been plugged by grime. and now that i've tightened the bolts the grime might be acting like a gasket. clearly not ideal, but i'm not dropping the entire keel to figure it out.
now that august has passed and the burning ball of fire in the sky has moved a few inches further away, i'm back to this. i tried in august to get some done, but even the slow epoxy kicked in smoking glory too fast to work with.
i sanded back more of the paint/gelcoat to open the area up a little more.
then i followed with thixo in the seem. i pushed as much of it as i could into the joint using a putty knife. in hindsight, i'd probably skip this if i had to do it again. thixo is a pain the neck. i broke one caulk gun and the hardware stores don't usually carry the 8:1 guns. so between it hardening in the mixing tube and the fact that you need the hands of giant to get it out it didn't go great. it's also seriously sticky. much more so then regular epoxy.
after the thixo geled, i put two layers of 1708 glass over top. i ran out of time and could no longer crouch under the boat anymore, so i'll have to sand it a little and put an additional layer over top. after that i'll fair it out and it should be done
I've never tried that stuff. I just fill a west systems cartridge with my own mix, and then can control the additive/viscosity/cure time.
Guys : Now after all that work fixing the smile - during the next haul if you let the yard allow the hull to rock back - you'll open up your smile fix and be staring all over again!! I only allow the block to be under the nose with NO block further back under the wing. A set of jackstands will keep the hull from rocking back!
Make the yard lower the boat so the weight is on the nose of the wing. The factory told me to have 75% on the weight on the nose keel and 25% on the jackstands/cradle.
A few thoughts
Quote from: KWKloeber on September 29, 2021, 07:57:11 AM
I've never tried that stuff. I just fill a west systems cartridge with my own mix, and then can control the additive/viscosity/cure time.
i hadn't either. the theory was that the thickner/additives they used are more elastic then normal 406 or something akin. so if there's flex the bond might hold better. i'll concede that might totally be in my head.
i'll also note, that there's apparently something mixed into it as i have a rash on my arm where it touched me, which doesn't happen with regular west/totalboat epoxy. so there's that.
so given the hassle, the expense of the stuff, and now my arm, unless i see some clear advantage down the road i'll probably skip thixo for anything in the future :)
Quote from: mdidomenico on September 30, 2021, 05:16:37 AM
Quote from: KWKloeber on September 29, 2021, 07:57:11 AM
I've never tried that stuff. I just fill a west systems cartridge with my own mix, and then can control the additive/viscosity/cure time.
i hadn't either. the theory was that the thickner/additives they used are more elastic then normal 406 or something akin. so if there's flex the bond might hold better. i'll concede that might totally be in my head.
i'll also note, that there's apparently something mixed into it as i have a rash on my arm where it touched me, which doesn't happen with regular west/totalboat epoxy. so there's that.
so given the hassle, the expense of the stuff, and now my arm, unless i see some clear advantage down the road i'll probably skip thixo for anything in the future :)
I don't know how that stuff compares to the G-Flex (which can be used in the West cartridges.) I'm torn between the concept of using something that allows a flex and normal epoxy because the joint is going to be covered with glass/epoxy that will not want to give at all anyway. My entire keel surface is bed in 5200 with a band of 2-3 layers of epoxy/triaxial cloth around the joint. Nary a problem.
put the third layer of glass on. used a west systems roller this time. made the process MUCH easier then trying to push the stuff in with a brush. i'm debating on whether to put another layer. i don't think it needs it. now i have to figure out what to cover it with. if i cared about a smooth hull i might fair it out, but that seems a waste, i might just use a barrier coat and then bottom paint. any products recommended?
Wow, that is a big patch. You've gone so far, I would take the final steps......fair it out with several layers of epoxy fairing compound, sanding in-between with a longboard, then 3-4 coats of Interlux InterProtect 2000e, then two coats of bottom. You asked... 8)
I agree with the idea of fairing. Those small dimples from the weave of what you used will create crevasses for bad gunk to grow in if you don't, even when painted.
I wished you had asked for guidance on glassing it up. What I see is having made yourself a LOT of unnecessary work to finish it smooth/correctly.
The glass is used for structural strength not for bulk filling. So I would have banded the joint w/ 4" wide triaxial glass or even carbon fiber. There's no reason to use glass on the nose above and below the crack - it doesn't add anything.
The remainder I would have filled to the band level w/ epoxy/successively less-hard filler. Starting w/pure colloidal silica or microfibers. You hit the first coat with a 60 grit angle grinder just to take off high spots/trowel lines. Then proportion down the hard filler and proportion up medium or low density filler. Just grade down to a pure medium density filler as the final layer, 120 grit sand, then last coat fair over the band and areas above/below to make a nice transition across it all, finishing off w/ 200 grit D/A or R/O sander. You can use those type for the first couple hits, but an angle grinder just significantly reduces sanding/grinding time on very hard filler.
With the glass all over it's a HELL of a job to successively sand it level, no less smooth. It's possible to make a nice finish w/o adding a lot of fairing but it's a BEAR to sand structural epoxy because it's got such a high shore hardness.
Just IMO, I would never leave a nice smile job looking like a mess that was painted over. But YBowYC.
mdidomenico- Thank you for the excellent documentation. I'm excited to see your finished product. I'll be doing the same repair to our '88 before next summer.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on October 02, 2021, 05:57:59 PM
I agree with the idea of fairing. Those small dimples from the weave of what you used will create crevasses for bad gunk to grow in if you don't, even when painted.
the other two layers of glass i sanded before i applied that last third, it smoothed out fairly well even without fairing compound. the ridges aren't as deep as they might appear on camera. even with a couple layers of bottom paint, i'm not entirely convinced it'll be any more crater'ish then the rest of the ballast.
but i'll concede it could always be smoother, its just whether all that sanding and fairing is worth the pain in my shoulders. i'm mean lets get real, i'm not racing and it's not a visible section of the boat, how smooth does it really need to be.
Quote from: KWKloeber on October 03, 2021, 01:34:31 AM
I wished you had asked for guidance on glassing it up. What I see is having made yourself a LOT of unnecessary work to finish it smooth/correctly.
The glass is used for structural strength not for bulk filling. So I would have banded the joint w/ 4" wide triaxial glass or even carbon fiber. There's no reason to use glass on the nose above and below the crack - it doesn't add anything.
The remainder I would have filled to the band level w/ epoxy/successively less-hard filler. Starting w/pure colloidal silica or microfibers. You hit the first coat with a 60 grit angle grinder just to take off high spots/trowel lines. Then proportion down the hard filler and proportion up medium or low density filler. Just grade down to a pure medium density filler as the final layer, 120 grit sand, then last coat fair over the band and areas above/below to make a nice transition across it all, finishing off w/ 200 grit D/A or R/O sander. You can use those type for the first couple hits, but an angle grinder just significantly reduces sanding/grinding time on very hard filler.
With the glass all over it's a HELL of a job to successively sand it level, no less smooth. It's possible to make a nice finish w/o adding a lot of fairing but it's a BEAR to sand structural epoxy because it's got such a high shore hardness.
Just IMO, I would never leave a nice smile job looking like a mess that was painted over. But YBowYC.
what i've done really isn't that far from what you're describing. the thixo filled in the gap and levelled out the deep grind i did to get back to the lead. the 3 layers of 1708 bulked up the joint and filled in the depression from where i sanded the bevel out.
also keep in mind what i didn't mention is the glass isn't totally wetted out at the top, i cut the piece oversize taped it to the hull and then painted on the epoxy. the top edge is going to come down 2-3" inches and it should be fairly straight along a straight edge from top to bottom of the keel. i'll check it when i go down this weekend.
as far as the front edge. it was easier just to wrap it around the nose and move on.
i'll hit it with a sander on saturday, we'll see how it looks. i think the camera + angle might be making it look a lot worse then it is.
If you're looking to "sand" the epoxy/glass/resin on Sat w/ a D/A or R/O, think about picking up $15 HF 4-1/2" angle grinder and a couple different grade discs and save your shoulders. Save "sanding" for medium density filler after you true up the surface of the glass with light touch passes of the angle grinder. It also provides an excellent grip surface to grab medium density fairing.
The process I usually use on flat surfaces is to apply resin, roll on the glass or carbon (which nicely adheres to the substrate,) roll on resin or "tip" in the glass with resin and a stiff brush. Only very occasionally will I saturate the glass then apply it (it tends to fall apart if handled anything more than minimally once wetted out.)
Ken
PS when I said "nose" I meant the whole bow (doesn't benefit from adding glass, except to specifically band the joint.)
Quote from: KWKloeber on October 05, 2021, 11:05:53 AM
If you're looking to "sand" the epoxy/glass/resin on Sat w/ a D/A or R/O, think about picking up $15 HF 4-1/2" angle grinder and a couple different grade discs and save your shoulders. Save "sanding" for medium density filler after you true up the surface of the glass with light touch passes of the angle grinder. It also provides an excellent grip surface to grab medium density fairing.
yup, got a whole box full. i don't mess with elbow grease sanding resin anymore, learned that the hard way. if the D/A w/ 40-grit doesnt make it come off easily, the flap wheels follow.
Quote from: KWKloeber on October 05, 2021, 11:05:53 AM
The process I usually use on flat surfaces is to apply resin, roll on the glass or carbon (which nicely adheres to the substrate,) roll on resin or "tip" in the glass with resin and a stiff brush. Only very occasionally will I saturate the glass then apply it (it tends to fall apart if handled anything more than minimally once wetted out.)
yeah i tried wetting the glass first and then laying on the keel. bad idea, my skills aren't at that level. i wasted a big stretch of glass and bunch of resin
Quote from: KWKloeber on October 05, 2021, 11:05:53 AM
PS when I said "nose" I meant the whole bow (doesn't benefit from adding glass, except to specifically band the joint.)
oh. yeah you're probably right. i'd thought about just using strips as well. the excess glass in this case just made it easier for me because it's a vertical surface. i'm sure it's wasteful and costly, but making it easier, even at a higher expense, meant i could actually get it done. nothing more then that
it looks like the epoxy shrank a bit during the cure, what looked pretty flat a week ago, now has a little ripple. and since i happen to have a can of 407 left over from another project we'll add a layer of fairing. whether i add a second coat or not will depend on how my ocd is that day. there's a divet on the port side that's a little deeper then i thought it would turn out, but otherwise things aren't that out of whack. it's getting colder here, so i need to wrap this up
Maybe you're aware already but make sure to remove all blush b4 overcoating.
Quote from: KWKloeber on October 17, 2021, 01:43:36 PM
Maybe you're aware already but make sure to remove all blush b4 overcoating.
yup, i tend to overwash/oversand things with soap water/minerals spirits/etc between coats of varnish/epoxy/etc.
its part of the reason i hate doing drywall, put some on, take off way to much, put some one, take off way to much, then spackle bucket is empty...
sanded the filler and applied a second coat. i've still got a divet in the middle on the port side, it doesn't look great and it'll reduce a little when i sand this coat down, but i think i'm going to call it good there. a little bottom paint to cover it over the winter and that'll be it (full bottom paint in the spring). hopefully this is fixed for good or at least a long time now.
Lookin good. It's gettin there. What product are you using to fair her?
I would "suggest" some epoxy barrier coat primer over the fairing before bottom paint.
Has anyone tried this G/flex method vs. glassing as mdidomenico did? The process for the G/flex seems a lot simpler, faster, and has the potential to last longer (if the claims are true). Grind, fill, sand, fair, and barrier cost? Almost seems too good to be true. Is it?
https://www.epoxyworks.com/index.php/smiles-all-around/
Quote from: KWKloeber on October 23, 2021, 11:25:57 AM
Lookin good. It's gettin there. What product are you using to fair her?
it's west 407. no particular reason for use, just what i had