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Author Topic: mkII ignition key switch and engine hours meter  (Read 390 times)

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wingman

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mkII ignition key switch and engine hours meter
« on: July 09, 2020, 05:20:26 AM »

Hi all, new to this board and sailing a new to me 2000 mkII w/ M35BC.

I've searched the board on this topic but have not found exact answer so decided to post, pic of pedestal engine control panel attached for reference.
 
Two questions:
Regarding the ignition switch positions and what is energized at which position, can someone verify this:
--off (everything off)
--on (electrical on including electric lift pump)
--momentary on (glow plugs).

 Regarding engine hours meter, is it energized when engine is running (ie, from alternator or other source?) or when key is in "on" position?

Thanks in advance!
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2000 Catalina 34 mkII, #1471

ewengstrom

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Re: mkII ignition key switch and engine hours meter
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2020, 05:40:28 AM »

Wingman,
You are correct with the functions of the key positions.
With regards to the hour meter, it should be energized when the key is turned to the "on" position so it will pick up hours of operation even if the key is just turned on but the engine is not running.....but how often do you just leave the key "on" without the engine running....? :D
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Eric Wengstrom
s/v Ohana
1988 Catalina 34 MKI SR/WK
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Universal M25XP
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wingman

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Re: mkII ignition key switch and engine hours meter
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2020, 06:27:07 AM »

Thanks ewengstrom!

I never leave the key on when the engine isn't running but the boat is part of a small club and I've discovered that one of our new members does :cry4` so I am trying to determine what else is running with the key on, lift pump is bad enough!
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2000 Catalina 34 mkII, #1471

KWKloeber

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Re: mkII ignition key switch and engine hours meter
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2020, 08:50:20 AM »

wm

I don’t know exactly which model teleflex tach that is, but if it’s like all others and other brands that I know of, the HM advances when it receives the A/C signal. In other words the HM doesn’t advance with 12v only to it. You can verify that by watching the 1/00 digit (advances every 36 sec) w/ just the key on. Please let me know if I’m incorrect on that model.

ken

Little known fact - peeps replacing an HM/tach think they are stuck doing math to know actual engine hours, but they can be advanced to the current hours.
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
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KWKloeber

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Re: mkII ignition key switch and engine hours meter
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2020, 09:35:09 AM »

PS: Re your key -

(I presume she was NOT repowered?)

What is on w/the key *should be*:
     Gauges and their lights
     Alternator field excite circuit
     Engine alarm*

*You *should* get the alarm without the engine running (no oil pressure.)  Do you get the alarm when you first turn on the key (cold engine)?

On A- and B-series engines the lift pump *should* run only when:
    - there is oil pressure (safety shut down that typically doesn’t work) or
    - the glow plugs are activated (bypasses the safety feature.)

The above presumes that Westerbeke used the “Catalina wiring standard”, opposed to the normal Westerbeke schematic - they are sometimes identified by a (C) suffix (M-xxA(C) or M-xxB(C).)

There are known issues w/ those convoluted, back-a$$wards, SAE (not marine) A and B wiring harnesses that can screw up the alarm and/or the lift pump operating correctly.
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

wingman

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Re: mkII ignition key switch and engine hours meter
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2020, 09:49:26 AM »

Thanks Ken, I will try your suggestion and see if the meter runs.

Thanks KWKloeber, original engine and engine alarm sounds w/o engine running, either on shut down or cold engine start.

My mechanic says its a M35BC, how do I determine if it uses (C) Catalina wiring standard?

Also, what is the "Alternator field excite circuit"?
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KWKloeber

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Re: mkII ignition key switch and engine hours meter
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2020, 11:13:18 PM »

A 35BC is a 35B(C). Check and there *should* be a tag with the engine model number - on the B series I believe it’s on the valve cover or the top of the exhaust manifold, behind the coolant filler/pressure cap. Maybe Ron can verify that.

Confused - if the alarm works, how is the driver leaving the key on while sailing??!!??

The circuit energizes the alt field, to wake up the alternator at low RPMs and start charging. Newer alts are a one-wire (output only) and are “self exciting” (no field excite needed.)
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

KWKloeber

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Re: mkII ignition key switch and engine hours meter
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2020, 01:34:19 AM »

There is a separate Parts Manual for the B(C) engines that shows the Catalina wiring standard.   I’ll find and upload that in the next couple days. 
The Catalina schematic (and also westerbeke schematic) is also in the Ops Manual and Technical Manual for the B engines - on the techwiki website (“Manuals”)

https://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Manuals

I *THINK• that the engine model number and serial number (Universal’s s/n, not Kubota s/n) is engraved on a plate on the side of the exhaust manifold. Let me know if that’s not so.
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

wingman

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Re: mkII ignition key switch and engine hours meter
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2020, 03:13:38 AM »

Thanks KWKloeber,
I will do a little more investigation next time I am at the boat. Regarding the driver sailing w/ the alarm on, no one else has been on board at the time so we're all trying to figure that one out :shock:
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Stu Jackson

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Re: mkII ignition key switch and engine hours meter
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2020, 05:50:56 AM »

There is a separate Parts Manual for the B(C) engines that shows the Catalina wiring standard.   I’ll find and upload that in the next couple days. 
The Catalina schematic (and also westerbeke schematic) is also in the Ops Manual and Technical Manual for the B engines - on the techwiki website (“Manuals”)

https://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Manuals>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hi, wingman,

There was a loooong discussion about the wiring in a thread about Hard Starting and Glow Plug Problems some years ago, back in 2007 or so.

I reviewed the wiring diagrams and concluded that the schematic and the physical wiring diagrams in the manual were different.

My conclusions, for you, are to trace the wires and find out what you have on your boat, regardless of what you find in whatever manuals you may find.

It's not too hard to determine, for example, where the wiring for the fuel pump goes, and how it operates based on the key switch positions.  Once you do that, you will know, instead of guessing, based on some vague M35B or BC "stuff."

I'll go find the link to that discussion, and post it.
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Re: mkII ignition key switch and engine hours meter
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2020, 05:56:13 AM »

The Hard Starting thread is in Critical Upgrades.

In another prior discussion about this same issue (https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9927.msg75974.html#msg75974) [Please read both pages of this link first, scroll to the top, thanks], I wrote:

Further to my earlier post Reply #4, this is what I was referring to in the Critical Upgrades topic thread:

In 2007 we had discussed this in a very looong thread:  Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem?? M35 Engines & Fuel Pump Wiring

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3347.45.html

Reply #54 on page 4 of that topic begins to discuss the wiring to the fuel pump, how it works, issues with bleeding...

I just looked at it, try starting at the top of the page, Reply #52 is longer and gets into the nuts&bolts.

That thread discusses the very wiring diagrams Ken has so helpfully posted.

One VERY IMPORTANT take away from that discussion is that there are two wiring diagrams that purport to show the same thing.  IIRC, they may well be the same number diagram, 200360, that Ken posted.  [It IS, see Reply #47 in the link.]  They are both in the manual.  One is a schematic, the other shows physical relationships and connections.  I discussed the differences between these SAME NUMBERED DIAGRAMS  in the link in this post.  It is CRITICAL when looking at them that you understand the differences, in addition to Ken's observations.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 06:02:50 AM by Stu Jackson »
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wingman

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Re: mkII ignition key switch and engine hours meter
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2020, 07:05:34 AM »

Thanks Stu, great thing about boats, nothin' is simple!
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Roc

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Re: mkII ignition key switch and engine hours meter
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2020, 12:00:50 PM »

To see your fuel tank level (gauge needle reading) the key must be on (also the alarm will beep).  When key is off, the needle will show ZERO.  So when refueling, I need to listen to the alarm beep.
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Stu Jackson

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Re: mkII ignition key switch and engine hours meter
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2020, 08:32:54 PM »

When refueling, I determine how much I need before I get anywhere near a fuel dock based on fuel consumption.

While I haven't had a working fuel gauge in 20 years, I'm sure some with more experience with them than I have may explain how they do this.  :D

From the 101 Topics:

Fuel Log 101

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3841.msg21571.html#msg21571
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Ron Hill

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Re: mkII ignition key switch and engine hours meter
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2020, 02:56:18 PM »

Wing : Your type engine is on a plate on the valve cover as Ken said. 

Regarding fuel consumption don't believe the gage as you have an asymmetrical fuel tank!!!  Use time and engine hours.  I'll guess that for a 35HP M35BC engine I'd start at .75 gal/hr and then increase or decrease that consumption based on experience.  :thumb:

I'll also guess that your tach hour meter runs with the key switch ON.  Sometimes people turn the key ON and then turn ON the blower to cool down the aft cabin!?! Don't think that I'd do that, but....   :shock:

A few thoughts
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 02:02:22 PM by Ron Hill »
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