Hi all, new to this board and sailing a new to me 2000 mkII w/ M35BC.
I've searched the board on this topic but have not found exact answer so decided to post, pic of pedestal engine control panel attached for reference.
Two questions:
Regarding the ignition switch positions and what is energized at which position, can someone verify this:
--off (everything off)
--on (electrical on including electric lift pump)
--momentary on (glow plugs).
Regarding engine hours meter, is it energized when engine is running (ie, from alternator or other source?) or when key is in "on" position?
Thanks in advance!
Wingman,
You are correct with the functions of the key positions.
With regards to the hour meter, it should be energized when the key is turned to the "on" position so it will pick up hours of operation even if the key is just turned on but the engine is not running.....but how often do you just leave the key "on" without the engine running....? :D
Thanks ewengstrom!
I never leave the key on when the engine isn't running but the boat is part of a small club and I've discovered that one of our new members does :cry4` so I am trying to determine what else is running with the key on, lift pump is bad enough!
wm
I don't know exactly which model teleflex tach that is, but if it's like all others and other brands that I know of, the HM advances when it receives the A/C signal. In other words the HM doesn't advance with 12v only to it. You can verify that by watching the 1/00 digit (advances every 36 sec) w/ just the key on. Please let me know if I'm incorrect on that model.
ken
Little known fact - peeps replacing an HM/tach think they are stuck doing math to know actual engine hours, but they can be advanced to the current hours.
PS: Re your key -
(I presume she was NOT repowered?)
What is on w/the key *should be*:
Gauges and their lights
Alternator field excite circuit
Engine alarm*
*You *should* get the alarm without the engine running (no oil pressure.) Do you get the alarm when you first turn on the key (cold engine)?
On A- and B-series engines the lift pump *should* run only when:
- there is oil pressure (safety shut down that typically doesn't work) or
- the glow plugs are activated (bypasses the safety feature.)
The above presumes that Westerbeke used the "Catalina wiring standard", opposed to the normal Westerbeke schematic - they are sometimes identified by a (C) suffix (M-xxA(C) or M-xxB(C).)
There are known issues w/ those convoluted, back-a$$wards, SAE (not marine) A and B wiring harnesses that can screw up the alarm and/or the lift pump operating correctly.
Thanks Ken, I will try your suggestion and see if the meter runs.
Thanks KWKloeber, original engine and engine alarm sounds w/o engine running, either on shut down or cold engine start.
My mechanic says its a M35BC, how do I determine if it uses (C) Catalina wiring standard?
Also, what is the "Alternator field excite circuit"?
A 35BC is a 35B(C). Check and there *should* be a tag with the engine model number - on the B series I believe it's on the valve cover or the top of the exhaust manifold, behind the coolant filler/pressure cap. Maybe Ron can verify that.
Confused - if the alarm works, how is the driver leaving the key on while sailing??!!??
The circuit energizes the alt field, to wake up the alternator at low RPMs and start charging. Newer alts are a one-wire (output only) and are "self exciting" (no field excite needed.)
There is a separate Parts Manual for the B(C) engines that shows the Catalina wiring standard. I'll find and upload that in the next couple days.
The Catalina schematic (and also westerbeke schematic) is also in the Ops Manual and Technical Manual for the B engines - on the techwiki website ("Manuals")
https://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Manuals
I *THINK• that the engine model number and serial number (Universal's s/n, not Kubota s/n) is engraved on a plate on the side of the exhaust manifold. Let me know if that's not so.
Thanks KWKloeber,
I will do a little more investigation next time I am at the boat. Regarding the driver sailing w/ the alarm on, no one else has been on board at the time so we're all trying to figure that one out :shock:
Quote from: KWKloeber on July 10, 2020, 01:34:19 AM
There is a separate Parts Manual for the B(C) engines that shows the Catalina wiring standard. I'll find and upload that in the next couple days.
The Catalina schematic (and also westerbeke schematic) is also in the Ops Manual and Technical Manual for the B engines - on the techwiki website ("Manuals")
https://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Manuals>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hi, wingman,
There was a loooong discussion about the wiring in a thread about Hard Starting and Glow Plug Problems some years ago, back in 2007 or so.
I reviewed the wiring diagrams and concluded that the schematic and the physical wiring diagrams in the manual were different.
My conclusions, for you, are to trace the wires and find out what you have on your boat, regardless of what you find in whatever manuals you may find.
It's not too hard to determine, for example, where the wiring for the fuel pump goes, and how it operates based on the key switch positions. Once you do that, you will know, instead of guessing, based on some vague M35B or BC "stuff."
I'll go find the link to that discussion, and post it.
The Hard Starting thread is in Critical Upgrades.
In another prior discussion about this same issue (https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9927.msg75974.html#msg75974 (https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9927.msg75974.html#msg75974)) [Please read both pages of this link first, scroll to the top, thanks], I wrote:
Further to my earlier post Reply #4, this is what I was referring to in the Critical Upgrades topic thread:
In 2007 we had discussed this in a very looong thread: Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem?? M35 Engines & Fuel Pump Wiring
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3347.45.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3347.45.html)
Reply #54 on page 4 of that topic begins to discuss the wiring to the fuel pump, how it works, issues with bleeding...
I just looked at it, try starting at the top of the page, Reply #52 is longer and gets into the nuts&bolts.
That thread discusses the very wiring diagrams Ken has so helpfully posted.
One VERY IMPORTANT take away from that discussion is that there are two wiring diagrams that purport to show the same thing. IIRC, they may well be the same number diagram, 200360, that Ken posted. [It IS, see Reply #47 in the link.] They are both in the manual. One is a schematic, the other shows physical relationships and connections. I discussed the differences between these SAME NUMBERED DIAGRAMS in the link in this post. It is CRITICAL when looking at them that you understand the differences, in addition to Ken's observations.
Thanks Stu, great thing about boats, nothin' is simple!
To see your fuel tank level (gauge needle reading) the key must be on (also the alarm will beep). When key is off, the needle will show ZERO. So when refueling, I need to listen to the alarm beep.
When refueling, I determine how much I need before I get anywhere near a fuel dock based on fuel consumption.
While I haven't had a working fuel gauge in 20 years, I'm sure some with more experience with them than I have may explain how they do this. :D
From the 101 Topics:
Fuel Log 101
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3841.msg21571.html#msg21571
Wing : Your type engine is on a plate on the valve cover as Ken said.
Regarding fuel consumption don't believe the gage as you have an asymmetrical fuel tank!!! Use time and engine hours. I'll guess that for a 35HP M35BC engine I'd start at .75 gal/hr and then increase or decrease that consumption based on experience. :thumb:
I'll also guess that your tach hour meter runs with the key switch ON. Sometimes people turn the key ON and then turn ON the blower to cool down the aft cabin!?! Don't think that I'd do that, but.... :shock:
A few thoughts
Yes, I never trust boat fuel gauges. So far .625 gal/hr is about average consumption so .75 is a good conservative number to use.
WM
I mistyped earlier - it isn't a different Parts Manual for the B(c) engines -- it's a different Ops Manual (revision 3) for them. I haven't studied the differences but I aspect it's just different starting procedures/buttons between the Westerbeke and Catalina engine panels.
I just uploaded the new manual to the techwiki under "Manuals".
https://c34.org/wiki/index.php (https://c34.org/wiki/index.php)
That Ops manual has both Catalina wiring diagrams that Stu mentions. If you try to trace out your wiring I have something that might help but I haven't finished it yet. As Stu noted those two wiring diagrams are drawn/depicted differently. (But they are functionally/electrically the same.)
I am taking the "Catalina Wiring Schematic" and numbering the circuits to show how they correspond to the "Catalina Wiring Diagram." I will post that (with an explanation) as soon as I finish it.
Meanwhile, I attached Westerbeke's engineering drawing of the wiring for Catalina.
QuoteRegarding fuel consumption don't believe the gage as you have an asymmetrical fuel tank!!! Use time and engine hours. I'll guess that for a 35HP M35BC engine I'd start at .75 gal/hr and then increase or decrease that consumption based on experience.
Ron is correct, again. That's exactly what I use, when refilling have a good idea how much fuel it will take. Fudge it some depending on conditions. I added a small white board above the nav station, I write the engine hours when I top up with fuel. That way I don't have to open up the log book.
FWIW that little white board works good for me, I used to have a batch of post-it notes. I write last fuel hours, last pump out date, and anything that I want to keep an eye on.
Jim
Wm
Here is where your model number is located if you want to verify it:
Thanks All, have narrowed down some of the original issues. Engine hours meter does indeed run w/ key "on."
In the process, however, now have an even more interesting issue: tachometer not operating properly. Mostly sits on zero but slowly moves up to about 1200 when throttle is advanced to what sounds more like 2000, then w/o touching throttle, indicated RPM goes back to zero.
Pedestal voltmeter also seems to be registering 17v with engine running, normally that would show about 14v. Panel voltmeter is more normal at about 14. Batteries seem to be charging. Belt and tension seems ok.
The boat has a Balmar 165a AT alternator with smart external regulator. I discovered the regulator a couple of weeks ago under the sink in the head and in the back of my mind knew I was going to have to get to know it, but didn't know it would happen so soon. It seemed to be indicating that the temp of the alternator was 83c. Sounds pretty hot and the alt seemed to be hotter than the engine. Normal?
I'm working my way through Tach/alt issues on this board, but it sounds like first step in troubleshooting is to check wiring connections in hopes that it is relatively simple wiring issue...
QuoteI'm working my way through Tach/alt issues on this board, but it sounds like first step in troubleshooting is to check wiring connections in hopes that it is relatively simple wiring issue...
That sounds like a good plan. If I were doing it would check every connection, even ones not having problems now, would only take a little extra time and may prevent having to dig into the wire again. I remember a problem on Shamrock with the shore power AC was intermittent mostly worked, traced to a bad crimp on first outlet in line. Looked good but a gentle pull pulled the wire from the connector. As the same crimper may have been used I pulled all the AC outlet boxes and checked, found one other bad crimp.
Lots of luck fixing your problems.
Jim
Wing : Balmar usually has a proprietary (goofy) alternator connector. I had a similar problem and it was all in that connector to the alternator.
You might want to call Balmar 360-435-6100 and get a new connector for those 2 wires and redo the wires with the new connector!! That's what I did and the new connector solved the problem. :D
A thought
An update for anyone interested in inop/intermittent tach issue previously discussed in this thread.
After checking all the electrical connections, the tach now operates as intended. Don't know which connection was the issue, but I think I will leave well enough alone for now.
Still need to replace the pedestal voltmeter. Catalina Direct has what appears to be a drop-in replacement https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-380390/electrical/engine-instrument-voltmeter/
Anyone replaced the pedestal voltmeter on a 2000-era Cat34MKii?
Quote from: wingman on September 16, 2020, 08:39:01 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Still need to replace the pedestal voltmeter. Catalina Direct has what appears to be a drop-in replacement https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-380390/electrical/engine-instrument-voltmeter/
Anyone replaced the pedestal voltmeter on a 2000-era Cat34MKii?
Thanks for the update. Intermittent anything electrical is 99% usually a connection, most likely the tach on the back of the alternator, although you didn't mention just what and where.
While I "only" have a Mark I, I replaced my voltmeter eons ago in my cockpit panel, forget where I got it. MY PO had already upgraded from the ammeter, although you don't have that issue. I would find out what instrument CD sells and do some comparastive shopping before pulling the trigger. Good luck.