Keel to Hull join flaking..?

[Ron Hill]

Guys : I believe that all of the C34 keels from 1986 and subsequent have some kind of coating on them!! reading I've found that exposed lead almost immediately form a coating of lead oxide!!

Maybe Catalina changed their specs on the keels since 1984!?!

A thought

[pbyrne]

@pbyrne

I think you are looking at the result of freeze-thaw. 
A little water gets behind the fairing (typically from wicking down the keel bolt threads and attacking the polyester "mung" keel bedding.) 
Then it only gets worse and worse, year after year.  That's what happened on my C30, except about 1/3 of the bedding was "gone."  Not gone as in missing, but "gone" as in turned into wet mush (like wet drywall) from water leaking down the bolts to the bedding and attacking it.

I doubt you tightened the keel by torquing the nuts.  More likely you were compressing the nuts into the fiberglass bilge. 

IIWMB here what I would do to first investigate/confirm what's going on.

1) Use your angle grinder ("cheap" at Harbor Freight if you don't have one) with a 1/4" thick wheel https://www.lowes.com/pd/DEWALT-Silicon-Carbide-4-5-in-Grinding-Wheel/1207179 (buy several!) 
Using a Dremel as some typically suggest (or any other child's tool) is just wasting your time.  It's an adult job, use an adult tool.

2) At the most forward and aft points, grind away ONLY enough fairing covering the joint to expose the joint/bedding material.  It should be whiteish-gray (or grayish-white?), about 1/4" to 3/8" thick, polyester mung between the keel and stub. 

3) Snap a chalk line to mark the precise location of the joint along the keel.

4) Use the wheel sideways -- such that you grind a slot into the fairing/bedding.  NOT flatways grinding away a 4" or 5" swath of fairing.)  Lightly grind a shallow groove then keep going back over it to deepen it until you get to the bedding. Grind just below the edge of the bedding, not deep into it.

5) Probe the condition of the bedding (ice pick, thin screwdriver, etc.) to see if it is competent or if spots have deteriorated.

6) Obviously while grinding you can determine what's going on, how extensive the "peeling" fairing is, if the bond is broken and is loose, and if it needs to be ground away as well.   

7) What you discover will determine the fix -- simply filling the ground-out slot with G-Flex, or grinding off more fairing (wider swath) to wrap the joint (I used 4" biaxial glass tape/epoxy resin, but I would use carbon fiber if I did it again today.)

I can't say for sure whether or not the nuts went into the fibreglass or not, but they didn't appear too.  I can see how using 500lbs of torque or something nuts would do that, but 105 which I believe is the recommened torque shouldn't do that should it; unless there is something wrong with the fibreglass?

Also, while I ensure the bilge is dry during the sailing season, winter layout always results in engine coolant in the bildge over the winter.  100% guaranteed.

What's the approach to ensure that the keel bolts can't 'wick'?

Finally, does anyone know what the keel bedding is on a 2000? It would at least be nice to know what was used that could essentially rot!

[KWKloeber]

Finally, does anyone know what the keel bedding is on a 2000? It would at least be nice to know what was used that could essentially rot!

Ask Warren Pandy at the factory.


Some have installed a pvc pipe tower at each nut to keep the nut inside dry from water in the bilge. I used 5200 to seal around the bolts and under the washers before nutting down.

Seems that it would be worthwhile to track down the source of in the bilge and eliminate the coolant?

[Ron Hill]

Guys : Look at Eric's post above and you can see the white coating that is on his keel under the gray barrier/bottom paint.

I've read the after you shine up lead it almost immediately forms a coating of lead oxide. I believe that Catalina probably changed their specs to have that coating - at least with the 1986 C34 & subsequent production.
That way barrier coat and or bottom paint would better stick !!

A thought

[ewengstrom]

Ron,
You are correct about lead oxidizing, and it actually starts in minutes, not hours. I worked very closely with my keel this past winter and found it was a very interesting (and frustrating) metal to work with. The melting point of lead is 621 degrees and boy does that make it hard to work....(especially drilling)
Before each step on my keel I would either sand it or wire wheel it to remove the oxidation and create a good clean bonding surface. I also wiped it with acetone and then coated it immediately. I did use an epoxy barrier coat over the entire surface after bonding, glassing and fairing the joint.

[pbyrne]

Finally, does anyone know what the keel bedding is on a 2000? It would at least be nice to know what was used that could essentially rot!

Ask Warren Pandy at the factory.


Some have installed a pvc pipe tower at each nut to keep the nut inside dry from water in the bilge. I used 5200 to seal around the bolts and under the washers before nutting down.

Seems that it would be worthwhile to track down the source of in the bilge and eliminate the coolant?

The coolant in the bilge is there in the spring after winter.  None in the bilge during the season.  I've asked around and apparently its a known issue.  I guess over the hard winters the hoses/engine contract, and you get a small drip.  Over 6 months, and it being non freezing fluid it accumulates.

I go over the engine every spring and make sure the hose clamps are snug. Never an issue during the season.  It's about 2 cups.

[KWKloeber]

@pbyrne

Whomever is giving you that answer about the coolant either

1. Doesn't know what they're talking about
or
2. Is intentionally feeding you BS.

Over 30 years, half of that on the hard over Buffalo winters I've never had a drop of coolant in the bilge in the spring. So, no it's not a known problem about Universals.

I tend to think the bad info is #1. because (even if it occurred as "they" claim due to contraction,) CLAMPS ALSO CONTRACT over the winter (greater than the rubber hoses) and therefore hoses connections become even tighter, not looser, during the winter. 

And, there's NO WAY a "drip" from such a "loose" hose connection due to contraction, not under pressure with cold coolant, would lose 2 cups.

The engine closed cooling system has something going on, somewhere, and it's fixable. Permanently.

[Jim Hardesty]

The coolant in the bilge is there in the spring after winter.  None in the bilge during the season.  I've asked around and apparently its a known issue.  I guess over the hard winters the hoses/engine contract, and you get a small drip.  Over 6 months, and it being non freezing fluid it accumulates.

I go over the engine every spring and make sure the hose clamps are snug. Never an issue during the season.  It's about 2 cups.

Shamrock, a 2001, in 20 seasons has never lost any coolant into the bilge, summer or winter (that's Erie Pa winters).  2 cups isn't much, but it isn't normal.  If it were me, I'd look for the leak before it got to be a real problem.  Possible a crack in the expansion tank.  Does the cooling system hold pressure?
Jim

[Ron Hill]

Guys : The last time I talked with Gerry Douglas Catalina was still using 3M5200 to bed their keels!!

A thought!   

[KWKloeber]

Guys : The last time I talked with Gerry Douglas Catalina was still using 3M5200 to bed their keels!!

A thought!   

Ron do you know about what year CTY switched from polyester mung to 5200?

[pbyrne]

@pbyrne

Whomever is giving you that answer about the coolant either

1. Doesn't know what they're talking about
or
2. Is intentionally feeding you BS.

Over 30 years, half of that on the hard over Buffalo winters I've never had a drop of coolant in the bilge in the spring. So, no it's not a known problem about Universals.

I tend to think the bad info is #1. because (even if it occurred as "they" claim due to contraction,) CLAMPS ALSO CONTRACT over the winter (greater than the rubber hoses) and therefore hoses connections become even tighter, not looser, during the winter. 

And, there's NO WAY a "drip" from such a "loose" hose connection due to contraction, not under pressure with cold coolant, would lose 2 cups.

The engine closed cooling system has something going on, somewhere, and it's fixable. Permanently.

I don't disagree, I thought the same thing. Metal contracts more than rubber.  However, I have not been able to pin down where the issue is, and I'm out of ideas.

The only thing I can think of is to call a local mechanic who may have come across this before, or put a UV dye in the coolant and use a UV light to try and trace it.

I'm open to ideas!

[pbyrne]

The coolant in the bilge is there in the spring after winter.  None in the bilge during the season.  I've asked around and apparently its a known issue.  I guess over the hard winters the hoses/engine contract, and you get a small drip.  Over 6 months, and it being non freezing fluid it accumulates.

I go over the engine every spring and make sure the hose clamps are snug. Never an issue during the season.  It's about 2 cups.

Shamrock, a 2001, in 20 seasons has never lost any coolant into the bilge, summer or winter (that's Erie Pa winters).  2 cups isn't much, but it isn't normal.  If it were me, I'd look for the leak before it got to be a real problem.  Possible a crack in the expansion tank.  Does the cooling system hold pressure?
Jim

How would you test for pressure?

[KWKloeber]

How would you test for pressure?

Borrow a radiator pressure tester from Autozone.  Remove the exhaust manifold csp, sttach it, pump up the pressure, watch the gauge to see if pressure holds.

[Jim Hardesty]

I go over the engine every spring and make sure the hose clamps are snug. Never an issue during the season.  It's about 2 cups.

Is the coolant low in the expansion (recovery) tank or in the engine itself? If it's the expansion tank look for a crack in the plastic tank, may have to remove it to get a good look.  If it's the engine pressure check like Ken said.  It's an easy test.  May not be so easy to find.
Jim   

[pbyrne]

I go over the engine every spring and make sure the hose clamps are snug. Never an issue during the season.  It's about 2 cups.

Is the coolant low in the expansion (recovery) tank or in the engine itself? If it's the expansion tank look for a crack in the plastic tank, may have to remove it to get a good look.  If it's the engine pressure check like Ken said.  It's an easy test.  May not be so easy to find.
Jim   

Expansion tank in the cockpit lazarette is pretty much empty by spring, stays full all through the warm months.   It was cracked as I had coolant in the lazerette for a year, and I figured that it was damaged with all the stuff coming in and out of the lazarette and changed it (after tightening the clamps etc, no change).  That fixed the coolant in the lazarette, but not the bilge.


I asked around the marina, and apparently I'm not the only universal engine that does this.  We've got a number of Catalina's here and most people have some; others none.  Other folks with M35 engine saw the same thing, evidence of coolant on the port side, mid point of the engine, on the floor between the engine supports.

I rang the local diesel mechanic and he immediately asked me if it was a Universal... said he's managed to correct it on only 2 engines over the years, and has talked to Universal and they only said it was likely a fitting somewhere that is contracting with the cold.

Noone seemed uninformed that I spoke to. If anything a number of people have been trying to figure this out over the years.

I have no explanation for this, or why some people have it and some don't, assuming all maintenance has been done.

Anyways, I'll give the engine a good once over, and see if I can find any 'trails', and if that doesn't work I'll see about the pressure test.