I recently purchased a C34 and have been working at getting the engine started. The boat has been out of water for the last 5 years. I've reviewed a lot of the posts here on the forum, the wiki, and the internet and am still not getting the engine to run. Below is a bulleted list of what I've done/seen.
- Checked that fuel is getting to the engine. Replaced all old lines for whole system and bleed.
- Checked electrical. Engine turns over slowly. Quick with decompression level on. Glow plugs glow. Cleaned battery terminals (have not cut and replaced)
- With injectors out I could see some fluid in the cylinders. I assume this is diesel from attempted starts. However the stern cylinder seems to have more then the other two. Plus the fluid is black. Could this be a sign of an oil leak?
Do you know the voltage on your battery vs. what it is at the starter? If the engine is turning over to slowly it won't ever manage to get it going.
Will it start if you crank it with the decompression lever open and then closed quickly while it is still cranking?
Question from a non-mechanic. If you do get it started, how are you going to cool it while out of the water?
Since he won't be able to put any load on it I expect that getting it up to temperature would be a bigger issue then cooling it.
My engine could run all day without cooling as long as I don't actually try and push the boat around.
Quote from: Braxton on November 16, 2015, 11:08:53 AM
Do you know the voltage on your battery vs. what it is at the starter? If the engine is turning over to slowly it won't ever manage to get it going.
Will it start if you crank it with the decompression lever open and then closed quickly while it is still cranking?
I'll have to bring my volt meter with me and check this. I have not gotten it to fire over at all yet.
Quote from: Braxton on November 16, 2015, 11:18:49 AM
Since he won't be able to put any load on it I expect that getting it up to temperature would be a bigger issue then cooling it.
My engine could run all day without cooling as long as I don't actually try and push the boat around.
Agreed, diesels run cool in general. Not planning on running long, just want to know if I have a "bigger" project on my hands.
Of course I made the classic mistake of jumping to a few conclusions so to back track a bit...
A few other thoughts:
1) What is the state of the fuel? Is it five years old or is it fresh?
2) When you bleed the fuel lines, did the fuel that come out seem like pure diesel or could it have water in it?
3) What does your primary fuel filter/ water separator look like? Any chance you're pulling water through?
4) Is the fuel pump running? Most of our boats will gravity feed the fuel if the tank is full but if it's low you may not be getting enough fuel through.
5) Anything restricting the air flow? After 5 years who know what could have built a nest in the air intake :)
Are you sure you don't have air in the fuel line? If I remember correctly, there are two bleed valves. One is on top of the fuel filter and the second is a wheel in the fuel line. The bleed valve on the fuel filter is easy to miss. Air in the fuel line was the issue every time our engine turned over but would not catch. If the engine is turning over slowly, I also would look at what voltage is getting delivered to the starter.
Ben : Look at Braxton's post. Clean fuel, clean fuel, clean fuel !!!
I doubt that the fuel tank was topped off before the boat was pulled- 5 years ago. I suspect that if you bled the fuel lines that water may have come out. The pickup tube draws from the bottom of the tank and any condensation collets in the tank bottom.
Look at the plastic bowl on the bottom of your Racor filter, and drain some fuel out of it (just loosen the knurled knob) into a glass jar. The fuel will float and any water will be evident in the bottom of the jar. You might want to pump out the old fuel thru the electric fuel pump (see WiKi) and refill with some fresh fuel.
"Fluid is Black" is not good, especially if it contains water!!
A few thoughts - as a starter !!
Ben,
What is the state of your batteries? I would cut off the old lugs and crimp and solder new ones on the battery cables. Don't forget those on the engine and behind the electrical panel. Has the wiring harness upgrade been done? If you have an amp meter in the cockpit it hasn't happened. Also is there a relay for the glow plugs? My
$0.02 for now.
Good advice.
For making sure about the electrical, simply bypass the boat wiring and run a + wire to the starter and a - one to an engine grounding bolt. Most likely, it's the negative, so I'd do that first, it's easier to do with no risk of sparks! :shock: :D
The secondary fuel filter bolt is on top of the filter housing and can be bled by turning the electric fuel pump on. You should read the Critical Upgrades to determine if your engine start/fuel pump circuit is like the older boats like mine (i.e., pump runs always with ignition on) or whether with your later #886 hull number and M25XP, it is paralleled with the glow plug and oil pressure sender. Here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.msg41829.html#msg41829
(http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.msg41829.html#msg41829)
If your fuel pump runs when the ignition key is turned, no further investigation is required.
There should be NO fuel leaking from the knurled knob (bleed screw) on the top of the engine and no need to crack injectors for basic bleeding. Do NOT overturn or force the knurled knob.
Good luck.
Just a word of caution. Don't try to start the engine without water going to the raw water pump. True the engine won't overheat for a while. But, the raw water pump will burn up. And the exhaust system is made to run wet, running dry may overheat it. Also the manual cautions not to crank the engine for longer than 30 seconds. After that you need to drain the muffler.
I just don't want you to make a problem worse.
Jim
Jim's right. Here's how to do it, from the "101 Topics":
Winterizing an Engine on the Hard (Thanks to Maine Sail) - NEVER connect a hose to your raw water pump inlet - NEVER!!!
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=873073&highlight=winterizing (http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=873073&highlight=winterizing)
Initially you say you cant get the engine started, then you say you can get it to run. Exactly what is happening? Does it turn over? Does it fire but not stay running, does it run with the theottle all the way back, but stop when you move the throttle up? It would help to know exactly what is happening.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on November 17, 2015, 06:11:41 AM
NEVER connect a hose to your raw water pump inlet - NEVER!!!
A
pressurized garden hose, that is!
Ok to connect an open-ended hose to a bucket or whatever to run "sea" water through while on the hard, or to pump antifreeze thru.
kk
Yes, thanks, Ken, for that important clarification, covered in the link's video.
Hi All. Thanks for all the feedback. I'm planning on spending more time working on the boat this weekend. Here are replies/answers to your comments mostly in the order posted.
Braxton
- The fuel is still the old fuel left from the previous owner. I'll bring fresh fuel with me this weekend and try starting off that.
- When bleeding fuel looked clean. No water. Fuel is pinkish, additives?
- There was a lil water at the bottom of the separator when I first started. Have not seen anymore.
- Yes, fuel pump is running. Turns on with engine key.
- Engine intake is clear. Have not checked tank vent pipe. Should I?
Claygr
- Pretty sure no air in line. I have not used the fuel filter bleed, but using the "wheel" bleed off the mechanical pump I can hear fuel going back into the tank.
Ron Hill
- To clarify, the black fluid is found inside the cylinder when injectors are removed. Fuel is more a pinkish color.
Footloose
- Using a new battery. I've cleaned the cable ends in the battery box, but have not cut, crimped, soldered. Engine side looks clean. Have not checked "middle" of circuit.
- I don't think wiring harness upgrade has been done.
- No relay for glow plugs.
Stu Jackson
- I like the idea of "bypassing" current circuits. Will try using new leads direct to starter and grounding block this weekend.
- Fuel pump is always on once the key is turned.
Jim Hardesty
- Thank you. I'll work on building a raw water bucket system.
SPembleton
- To clarify, the engine will spin via starter power. It does not fire at all. Engine turns slower then I think it should. Doesn't seem to even attempt to fire.
Ben,
If she's truely spinning well, then concentrate on fuel, fuel, fuel.
A vacuum leak (fuel line fittings and/or at primary filter) are always a key for no starts.
If you just want to verify starting, can simply remove the impeller - no need to rig up cooling just to run it for "a few" minutes.
By the injector pump, do you have the fuel bleed knob on the XP or the bleed screw? I have an M-25 and have the bleed fuel NOT going to the return fuel line -- when I bleed, I like to SOLO cup and look at it (false sense of security I suppose). Make sure you have no air whatsoever remaining in fuel stream when you bleed. If you do, back up and check for air leaks. I had a customer working on this for weeks and I kept asking "good fuel and flow to the injector pump?" - he'd never check it, and screwed around with compression tests and glow plugs and other crap. Turned out he picked up a (wrong) primary filter at NAPA - gasket was sucking air. If needed, try bypassing all and get fuel directly to the secondary filter.
Bleed fuel at each injector if necessary.
Start at the last point to verify proper, full fuel flow -- then if not work backwards from the known to the unknowns.
issue points: fuel pump filter and gasket, fuel line pick up (remove screen), primary filter should be before not after pump, air in fuel, weak flow.
Ken
On the raw water needs while on the hard and the weather is above freezing I use the boat water tanks with a bucket.
Raw water engine intake hose in bucket while filling bucket with head sink faucet hose in bucket. I have also used this method when raw water intake gets clogged and can get to safe anchor or dock quickly. If you want to run extended on the hard run garden hose to water tank fill and keep filling :thumb: .
I've replaced all fuel lines previously, but will double check all connections. My M25-XP has the fuel bleed knob with return line to injectors then tank.
Quote from: KWKloeber on November 19, 2015, 09:38:34 AM
issue points: fuel pump filter and gasket, fuel line pick up (remove screen), primary filter should be before not after pump, air in fuel, weak flow.
Are you talking about the pickup in the tank?
Quote from: Ben H. on November 19, 2015, 09:52:20 AM
I've replaced all fuel lines previously, but will double check all connections. My M25-XP has the fuel bleed knob with return line to injectors then tank.
Quote from: KWKloeber on November 19, 2015, 09:38:34 AM
issue points: fuel pump filter and gasket, fuel line pick up (remove screen), primary filter should be before not after pump, air in fuel, weak flow.
Are you talking about the pickup in the tank?
Yes p/u in the tank, no screen on the pick up - A westerbeke service bulletin) ! See the 101 list, I'm sure Stu has that on there.
Easier to replace a filter than clean a blocked screen in the tank!
I always ask "what has changed since the last time" - hoses, so yes do double check. Filters and o-rings/gaskets?
You can't imagine how many leave the the shut off closed! ;-0
Try starting with the bleed fully opened so fuel recirculates.
k
Quote from: KWKloeber on November 19, 2015, 09:59:27 AM
Yes p/u in the tank, no screen on the pick up - A westerbeke service bulletin) ! See the 101 list, I'm sure Stu has that on there.
That's on Critical Upgrades.
101 has fuel bleeding techniques.
I agree with everyone else who said that this sounds like a fuel issue. I would start by bleeding it at the fuel filter. That was all we needed to do when we changed the fuel filter. Opening the little wheel never seemed to make a difference.
I don't recall anyone mentioning whether the glowplugs are actually heating up. Does the voltage drop when they're engaged? Have you tried a non-contact thermometer to see if the area is getting hot? Replacement NGK's (I don't have the p/n handy) are only about $8 each.
Craig
Quote from: Craig Illman on November 19, 2015, 11:18:23 AM
I don't recall anyone mentioning whether the glowplugs are actually heating up. Does the voltage drop when they're engaged? Have you tried a non-contact thermometer to see if the area is getting hot? Replacement NGK's (I don't have the p/n handy) are only about $8 each.
Craig
They glow nice and red. Checked when injectors were out.
SHE'S ALIVE!!!!!
Over the weekend the co-owner and I went to the boat to try the engine some more and we finally got her running! I've very excited about this. She sounded good too. Here is what we did.
We had previously tried new fuel and were using a "gas" can to bypass the boat's tank of old fuel. No difference in attempting to start the engine.
We suspected that maybe the injectors were not working right as the motor had sat for 5 years unused. We had access to a Kubota tractor with the land version of this engine so we swapped injectors. Still nothing new.
As a "last" try I thought well the guys online said maybe it's a bad connection in the electrical chain and to hook the battery direct to the engine. So we tried this and instantly had better results. First I noticed a higher reading on the Volt meter at the engine panel before heating glow plugs. Within a few seconds of turning the engine over she started to kick and then vrrrrrrm. We were off to the races. THANK YOU C34.org!
Our plan now is to take the old injectors to a local diesel shop that can test/rebuild them to have the original ones checked out. Then we'll put those back into the engine. I then/concurrently am going to start "rebuilding" the electrical system. I plan on reading the current post chain about upgrading the electrical system here, http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,8708.0.html. The previous owner appears to have made some changes to the original configuration and a "rebuild" will allow me to learn that setup and correct/modify it to meet best practices.
Thanks again for everyone's help.
Are you saying battery negative directly to the engine? Where was it-on the bell housing?
The neg cable should be on a starter bolt.
Apparently she wasn't cranking as solidly as you reported?
Quote from: KWKloeber on November 30, 2015, 08:19:52 AM
Are you saying battery negative directly to the engine? Where was it-on the bell housing?
The neg cable should be on a starter bolt.
Apparently she wasn't cranking as solidly as you reported?
I wired the negative to the grounding block mounted inside the engine compartment, positive to the starter solenoid where the main positive was going.
I wasn't sure how quickly she should be cranking since I'm not very familiar with diesels. So she was definitely not spinning quick enough. I wonder if the glow plugs were even getting hot enough.
Where were those connected previously?
She had jumpers from where to where?
Quote from: KWKloeber on November 30, 2015, 09:18:59 AM
Where were those connected previously?
She had jumpers from where to where?
Yes, the wires were connected previously. I haven't traced wires throughout the boat yet. I assume most of the engine compartment wiring was factory.
Ben : Glad to hear that you got the engine running.
Just make sure that you pull the fuel tank and get rid of that old fuel. And while the tank is out I'd clean the inside of the tank.
Also check "critical Updates" and make sure the screen is off of the fuel pickup tube.
Congratulations!!
I was unclear in my questions.
The positive you 'wired to the solenoid' - was that the harness positive? Where was that previously?
The negative you wired to the terminal block - that was the harness negative? Where was that wired to previously?
Quote from: KWKloeber on November 30, 2015, 02:09:42 PM
I was unclear in my questions.
The positive you 'wired to the solenoid' - was that the harness positive? Where was that previously?
The negative you wired to the terminal block - that was the harness negative? Where was that wired to previously?
I took short leads direct from the battery terminals to the solenoid + (where harness wire was going) and ground block -.
Ben,
Glad to hear you got it running. Your "very last thing to try" seemed to have been the first thing that was suggested, both in this thread and in Critical Upgrades: the electrical connections.
Are you now going to re-winterize the engine?
Ben : The speed at which a diesel turn over is not particularly relevant to having it "fire up".
I believe that you probably finally got some new clean fuel to the different clean injectors and the engine started!!
My thoughts
Stu: Stubbornness on my end maybe?!
Ron: I think you're right, plus the better electrical connections.