Ran my house bank down to 50% while on the hook, thought I would charge them with my honda 1000, connected the generator to the AC inlet, made sure all AC items were unplugged or disconnected, hot water heater, Ect. I have a newer model Pro Mariner 20 Amp charger. I have done this before, I know the honda puts out around 7 amps, can't remember what the pro mariner needs but was in specs last time I looked it up, anyway, the Honda runs ok for awhile, then spits and sputters and dies, I may get about 15 minutes each time I start it. However, I use it all the time to run other things at home for hours at a time and it runs fine, got me stummped, is it too small? If memory serves, I do believe I used it last year, it spit and stumbled, then evened out and charged the batterys for about 3 hours. too much draw initially? Ron you have one, ever used it to charge your batteries via shore power recepticle? Bob
I had a Yamaha 1000. I realized it's not very useful... sold it and waiting to find a deal on a eu2000... but haven't had any luck yet.
We have a Honda 1000 and have regularly used it to charge the house bank while on the hook. Connected via the shore power plug. The only time we experienced the difficulties you discribed was when we had some bad fuel. Drained the tank, loaded new clean fuel, cleaned the plug, and got back to normal operation. Hope this is a help.
The Hondas have an automatic shut-off if the oil level is low. It doesn't seem to have to drop very far before it activates. That would be the first thing I'd check. Dirty fuel would definitely be the second.
Will second the post regarding the oil level...keep it correctly full and the unit reasonably level when operating.
Make sure you are not running it on ECO mode. The "intelligent" power controller might be causing the problem. I turn ECO off when using it to charge batteries.
Tony
Bob : I charge my batteries with the Honda 1000 using the shore power receptical all the time.
7amps seems a bit low for a 20 amp charger. When I had a Xantrax 20 it would charge start charging at approx 12-15 amps and then dwindle to below 10 amps as the batteries filled up.
Not too sure what the Pro Marniner draws. Run in the ECO mode and watch to see if the red overload light comes on, if it does then try this. You can run in the "Hi rpm" mode for 30 minutes with out damage to the motor. After 30 minutes drop it down and then continue to run in the ECO mode. Always watch to see if any of the red warning lights are coming ON.
As others have mentioned, make sure that the oil level is correct.
I ran into the following problem with ECO mode: the Xantrex charger reduces the power draw as the batteries top up. The Honda responds by reducing RPM and power output. The Xantrex responds by ramping up the demand for power, and so the Honda surges, and so on.
Net result: a Honda that surges up and down: lights on the Xantrex remote surging up and down and a sense that something is about to explode! Leave it running with ECO mode turned off and all is fine. The 30 minute limit applies to running with a load of more than 900 watts. I can't see any limit to running in non-ECO mode.
Tony
I used to use my eu2000 to charge on my last boat (stinkpot 3270) that had a newer 30amp 3/bank charger. With batteries pulled down that charger used approx 700 watts or just about 6 amp. I don't see why the 1000 wouldn't handle it fine expecially after 30 minutes or so of charging as the draw from the charger should gradually reduce.
I still have issues with the C34 wiring. When I plug my inverter in, it goes into alarm mode with my main breaker and all breakers switched off! Go figure?
Steve
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Steve :The eu 2000 doesn't have the problem, it's with the smaller eu1000 that can get overloaded!!
I still wouldn't recommend that anyone run the 1000 at the higher rpm for more than 30 minutes. You've probably put about 12-15 amp hrs back into the batteries and the ECO mode (lower rpm) will then probably be OK for charging.
I just wrote an article for the November Mainsheet tech notes on another solution for an overloaded Honda eu 1000.
A thought
I know that I'm not the coldest can in the sixpack, but typically I'm not the warmest either. Just for my feeble mind; Why would one want to charge batteries with an eu1000 or 2000 for that verses the alternator on the "iron main?' Is it hrs on the engine? fuel consumption? (eu requires additional fuel storage.) The charge rate should be less than even with the standard alternator (upgrade on my wish list, I think its #677 on the list) and the side benefit is hot water. I know on my last boat I could not run both my 30amp DC charger (with batteries low) and my water heater at the same time with my eu2000.
Just wondering
Steve
[flash=200,200[font=Verdana]]I've spent most of my money on women, boats, and airplanes......the rest I've wasted!
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Quote from: stevewitt1 on August 19, 2012, 09:23:12 AM
I know that I'm not the coldest can in the sixpack, but typically I'm not the warmest either. Just for my feeble mind; Why would one want to charge batteries with an eu1000 or 2000 for that verses the alternator on the "iron main?' Is it hrs on the engine? fuel consumption? (eu requires additional fuel storage.) The charge rate should be less than even with the standard alternator (upgrade on my wish list, I think its #677 on the list) and the side benefit is hot water. I know on my last boat I could not run both my 30amp DC charger (with batteries low) and my water heater at the same time with my eu2000.
Just wondering
Steve
[flash=200,200[font=Verdana]]I've spent most of my money on women, boats, and airplanes......the rest I've wasted!
visit us at: www.ocontoyachtclub.info (http://www.ocontoyachtclub.info) and www.warbirdsix.com (http://www.warbirdsix.com)
All of the above plus noise; plus it gives you AC power. However, like you mentioned, for hot water and charging the "iron main" may be the way to go.
Steve : Let me answer your question with my question??
Which makes more sense : Charge with that $10,000 engine or the $800 engine? The lower cost one is much quieter and has NO vibration throughout the boat!!
I don't believe that you have lived on a C34 attached to a mooring or at anchor for extended periods i.e. Months.
Your choice, your boat.
I agree with Ron...just a thought.
Wow, haven't had my fingers slapped like that since Sister Theresa in 3rd grade.
I did mention " Is it hrs on the engine?" and I was simply wondering why. I've given thought to carrying my 2000 on longer stays. I will try to refrain from demonstrating my naivete in the future.
And you are right, I haven't spent extended time on a mooring. Fortunately the $650/year(season) at my club keeps a dock in my budget. Yes, I live and Boat on a budget too.
I will however check on prices for the engine around here. I was hoping to be able to major my engine when the time comes (hopefully a long time down the road) and I can't imagine $10,000. Wow, am I out of touch with the market. The last engine I saw the bill on was my Allmand 31 for it's conversion to a M4-30 and that was just about $9,000 installed with the trans. I believe at that time the engine/trans was around $6,500 in the crate.
I would expect the M25-XP to be able to be rebuilt. A good friend of mine sold his engine machine business to become service manager at a Kabota Distributor. I'll find out what I should expect when I face a major on this engine. That's provided it doesn't throw a rod thru the block.
Steve
Steve : I didn't mean it that way.
If you really want a cranky 1st Mate, on an extanded anchor - run the main engine 30-45 minutes twice a day and she will become unhappy!! Beside it is not good for a diesel to idle (1500rpm or less) for that time day after day.
What you're going to find is that there is NO engine that is a direct drop in. it will take some modification to get a new one in. With the price of fuel be prepared to pay a heftey sum just to get the new engine delivered ($300?) unless you have a pickup, get it yourself and have a forklift/chain hoist at the other end to unload it!! Prices are crazy.
Then there are the new hoses, wiring, exhaust riser, hardware, new insulation, new stainless shaft etc etc etc. It all adds up fast!!
So just don't look at the price of the engine. A few thoughts
Thanks Ron,
I hope you realize I was being slightly facetious. I do have a slightly warped sense of humor. Maybe that's why I don't have to worry about the First Mate anymore.
Back on a serious note. I would hope the M25-XP would not be a beast to do a major overhaul. In the past, Universal did a great number on charging an arm and leg for an engine kit for the Atomic 4. My friend was able to get the parts cost down to around $600 if you didn't need a new crank. I don't remember the exact issue but it had something to do with the oil pump. He did however outsource all bearings, valves, pistons, rings rods, etc. I ibelieve leaving only gaskets from OEM source.
I just gave him a call right now and posed the question on my M25-xp about cost to overhaul. He asked how far I would want to go, injectors serviced, pump serviced, etc. and I told him yes. His big question was if I could locate a Kabota manual for the engine. If part were available he said it would run approx. $1,500 to do a major overhaul on it. This was only a guess given the stated criteria.
Steve
Steve,
Engine manuals are available here on this website.
Engines? http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Rebuilding_the_M25-XP
Just kiddin' :D
Steve : Opening up an old engine is always an adventure.
I hope that you can do that major overhaul for twice the quote price.
+ If you haven't changed engine mounts and a few other items, NOW is the time to do it!!
Good luck.
Ron
Now, to be honest, you have me slightly scared.
My boat: 1989 #854
engine 1094 hrs had 1020 6/1/12when I picked it up.
engine compartment extremely clean. Same owners the last 20-21 years before me that changed oil twice/year and averaged just under 50hrs/year, I did a courtesy change at 1034 when I arrived back at OYC and changed twice since. Zero detectable oil consumption at the 30+hr marks. Dripless coupler, injectors serviced at 900hrs just because recommended. My (untrained) eyes see no signs of any corrosion, pitting, or paint discoloration on engine mounts. Are these prone to unexpected failure?
I believe it has the original exchanger. Lift pump impellors changed annual, need it or not. I have probably 5 used ones that look like new. Engine runs at just under 160F when running 2700-2750 rpm. Once it was running up just over 180F under load. Backed it down to 1600rpm until out of shipping channel then cleaned strainer, but ultimately removed it from the thru hull and pushed some obstruction out of the intake. Never over 160F since. And I keep a constant eye on the temp.
What parts should I consider replacing as a preventive measure? I would rather preempt problems and I do appreciate the advice of those such as yourself that are the experts.
Steve
Quote from: stevewitt1 on August 20, 2012, 06:44:31 PM
What parts should I consider replacing as a preventive measure? I would rather preempt problems and I do appreciate the advice of those such as yourself that are the experts.
Steve, you've done well. Just read the Critical Upgrades topic. Also, PLEASE, do NOT "Curb Your Enthusiasm!" :D
It sounds, Steve, like your engine is running like a champ. Yes, keep up with all the maintenance and yes, the critical upgrades are really helpful. I follow these threads and get lots of ideas too. However, one reason we love our diesels is that with proper care we can get years and years of service out of them! My '87 engine is going strong (knock on wood!) and hopefully yours will last a very long time.
Steve - Spend the $25-30 and get your oil tested annually. It will give you hints on what may be wearing out. 1100 hours is very low. I had over 3000 hours on mine when I sold it. The compression was low from charter neglect, thus it started a little hard, but it still ran ok.
Craig
Steve : I'm not too sure how this topic of running a Honda eu1000 got twisted into where we are now??
The Honda is quieter, more economical, and easier on your diesel (which doesn't like to idle, it just to charge batteries - that's what a solar panel or a wind generator or a little Honda is for.
From what you've said I not too sure why you would even want to pull your M25XP engine out of your boat and would even want to rebuild it???
If you still have the original engine mounts you probably want to replace them as they transmitted any and all vibrations to the hull - they were BAD. Maybe yours have been changed - I don't know? When changing the oil filter most people dripped some oil on the front port side engine mount and the rubber inside the mount deteriorated. If any of the other mounts had any petroleum based liquid on them (ie Prestone) the same can happen. Also engine mounts tend to wear even from the weight of the engine sitting on them. A poor engine mount/mounts are difficult to keep the engine to shaft aligned!
Many of us have replaced our insulation/sound proofing in the engine compartment along with any hoses that are the color of your engine.
It sounds to me like you have a well maintained C34. You can read the lengthy Critical updates and see if any of them apply to your C34. Then you decide what you may want to tackle.
A few thoughts
A little late to the party but thought I would jump in. I have an eu2000 that is great. I spent 3 days on the ball at Catalina before I hit 60% on the house bank and wanted to top off. The "iron" charger does work but is noisy and diesels like a load so it is not really good for it. We put the 2000 up on the bow and run the SP cord back. It charges and heats the water. Took ~3.5 hours to get back to 90+%.
The 2000 is almost always onboard in the port locker tucked away. One of the best investments we have made.
bayates
Sorry for appearing to be lazy here, but what port locker do you store your Eu2000 in? Is it the cockpit locker? If so, does it stand up in there on its feet? Just thought I'd pick your brain before trying to unload the quagmire of things I have fit like a 3D puzzle in my hatch. This thread has changed my view on how to figure out which current bush to plug into for stays on the hook. I always used my Eu2000 in my former life as a stinkpotter on my 3270 MotorYacht. The biggest downside I've found so far is, where to stow it and having to carry the extra volatile gasoline. With my last sailboat (Allmand 31) I did use to M4-30 for recharging and heating water but it does make more sense to use the Honda given the cost and wear factors. I will say this; my M4-30 was a extremely Smooth running engine at All rpm's verses the M25-XP. I find this odd as I was once told that the best natural balance for a 4-stoke engine is a 3-cyl. But then I might have been told an old first-mate's (wives) tale.
Steve
visit us at: www.ocontoyachtclub.com (http://www.ocontoyachtclub.com) and www.warbirdsix.com (http://www.warbirdsix.com)
The cockpit lockers are different between the MKI and the MKII. The EU2000 will obviously fit on the MKII. Not sure about the MKI: need a MKI owner to confirm.
Re the eralier part of the thread, running with ECO turned off on the Xantrex charger, I tested Ron's theory about switching to ECO mode after 30 minutes. On a first test this worked fine.
Tony
I don't have a Honda 2000, but I measured the height of the lazarette compartment in my mk1.5 and it was shorter than the height of a 2000.
Roland : You can probably get the Honda 2000 in a MK I port cockpit lazerette if you tilt it sideways and shove it all the way back to port.
It's a bit difficult to get in and out, but I'm sure you can do it. Can your 1st Mate do it? - probably not. A thought
Unless you drain the Honda, I don't think the cockpit locker has enough ventilation to keep it gas fume free. I keep mine on the cockpit floor in front of the pedestal. It is under the table out of the way. Still room for 2 of us to use the table, if we have guests, when anchored or docked, move to the cabin top.
What's more dangerous?
Storing unvented propane or unvented gasoline in a boat?
Gee, I don't know which is more dangerous but the fact is that their both dangerous and you don't want to do either one!
Agree they are both dangerous, but propane is more so because the gas is heavier than air. Normal ventialtion (opening a locker hatch or opening the companonway) will help quickly dissipate gas fumes, but propane will sit in the bilge waiting for a spark.
Tony
Quote from: lazybone on September 13, 2012, 09:58:21 AM
What's more dangerous?
Storing unvented propane or gasoline in a boat?
Can't figure out whether this is a serious question or a joke. Really.
Unvented propane? C'mon. The boxes have to have drains (vents) or you have an incorrect installation.
Gasoline? I stored a gallon and a half of gasoline in our dinghy outboard engine's fuel tank for three months. Admittedly, it doesn't get that hot around here, but I did take it up to the Calfornia Delta (90 degrees) in the port locker.
I had a C22 with gas, and the tank lived in the port locker inside. I had a C25 with gas, the tank was in the essentially open cockpit locker to port. I carefully closed the vent on the tanks when I left the boat. Thousands of boats have Atomic 4s with gas.
We have CNG on our C34. Wished I had propane. But there's a chandlery three blocks from my boat that swaps out the CNG tanks and it isn't worth switching over. But I always assure that the tank is off and the line drained by opening one of the burners before I leave the boat.
Things go BOOM because of two things: carelessness or accidents (material failures).
I think there are a lot more dangerous things that go along with boating than gas or stove fuel.
OK back to my original question, about the Honda 1000 in hesitation when charging batteries, I have a Pro Tech 4 1230 on board charger, I just called Protech and talked to a very knowledgeable technician who said my pro tech will require up to 7.8 amps from my Honda 1000 to charge the batteries, in that I let my batteries fall to 50% of charge, (that one time) the Honda 1000 probably couldn't do it. He suggested not letting the batteries fall below 80% or so if I wanted to use the Honda for that purpose. Makes sense to me as I have used the Honda before with no trouble.
I asked him how he arrived at 7.8 amps, He said he multiplied 14.6 volts times 30 amps divided by 110 volts, this equals 3.9 which he then doubled for inherent losses. hence the 7.8 amps, he had a bunch of inherent loss explanations but I don't remember them all. SO, it appears my Honda is running OK, but at 50% battery level, I am simply asking it to do to much.
Thank you, was going to bring my old post up on this and was pleasantly surprised it was already at the top. and I sure learned a lot about overhauls and gasoline and propane fumes from my post. all the fun stuff that gets generated on this great board. Thanks everyone now if I can figure out how to install a dedicated radio music speaker on the bow I would be content.
Well, I use a 40 amp charger, and if you follow my procedure the Honda 1000 can handle it fine. As a recap: Turn off ECO mode for the first 30 mins, until the batteries have absorbed the initial bulk charge. Aftter those 30 minutes, you can turn ECO mode back on, and it should be fine.
Tony
Quote from: Stu Jackson on September 13, 2012, 10:35:45 AM
Quote from: lazybone on September 13, 2012, 09:58:21 AM
What's more dangerous?
Storing unvented propane or gasoline in a boat?
Can't figure out whether this is a serious question or a joke. Really.
Unvented propane? C'mon. The boxes have to have drains (vents) or you have an incorrect installation.
Gasoline? I stored a gallon and a half of gasoline in our dinghy outboard engine's fuel tank for three months. Admittedly, it doesn't get that hot around here, but I did take it up to the Calfornia Delta (90 degrees) in the port locker.
I had a C22 with gas, and the tank lived in the port locker inside. I had a C25 with gas, the tank was in the essentially open cockpit locker to port. I carefully closed the vent on the tanks when I left the boat. Thousands of boats have Atomic 4s with gas.
We have CNG on our C34. Wished I had propane. But there's a chandlery three blocks from my boat that swaps out the CNG tanks and it isn't worth switching over. But I always assure that the tank is off and the line drained by opening one of the burners before I leave the boat.
Things go BOOM because of two things: carelessness or accidents (material failures).
I think there are a lot more dangerous things that go along with boating than gas or stove fuel.
Stu you should know better.
Storing gasoline within your boat in any container not approved and engineered for on board use is just asking for misery.
Those small engines have flimsy tanks, fuel lines, clamps, and many plastic bits just waiting until you turn your head.
Aldo,
Plastic bits? Nawh. I replaced all those with hose clamps. And also replaced the hose/tank connector. New safety hose and a new bulb after a number of years.
I really believe that storing a small amount of gasoline, properly contained, is not as much as a big issue as people have portrayed it to be.
Our "new" tank is a 3 gallon dinghy transom mount. When the season is over, we bring it home, pour what's left in the car and leave it empty until the following season.
Super. :thumb:
Aldo : I'm sure you store your lawnmower gas can in your garage inside a metal storage container?!!?
On your boat, You also probably stopped carrying anything 80/100 proof because of it's volatility!!
I know what the safety rules are. Personally I accept the hazard of gasoline (don't like to, but have to) as there is no option unless my boat looks like a gypsy with all that stuff strapped to the top side.
As mentioned before you should run your blower if you are carrying gasoline onboard. thoughts
We are a MKII and use the port locker. We have a plastic bin it and all the accessories fit in and it slides all the way forward out of the way. We use the rest of the space to store our dive gear and othe midc stuff.