1987 MK 1 Electrical System Upgrade - Feedback Requested

[Ron Hill]

Jon : Your picture of the negative #4 battery wire. May be too late now, but I wouldn't have replaced it!!

I would have soldered that ring connector to the wire for a better electrical connection.  Then I would have used a piece of Anchor heat shrink, slid it over the exposed wire and used a heat gun to shrink it.

I specified Anchor, because all heat shrink is not the same!  Anchor is bit more expensive, but it has a substance on the inside that when heated melts and forms a water seal for the inside of the heat shrink.  Never use a flame with heat shrink, as it's way too hot and can/will burn the heat shrink.

A few thoughts

[Jon W]

Hi Ron,
    Thanks for the tip but I'm changing from 4 AWG to 1 AWG cables. I'm using the adhesive lined HST Ken sells, not sure of the brand.

    I finally found some heat shrink terminals on the macerator pump/motor wiring that the PO installed just before I bought the boat. Unfortunately he forgot to heat shrink them.

Ben H., Ed,
    I'd recommend that when you do your electrical upgrade project, that you pay attention to all of the wires. Not just the ones you are changing or re-routing. The attached photo is the positive wire from my new macerator to the main panel as an example why I suggest this extra work.

Ben H.,
    In the second and third photo's I tried to get you a perspective of how tight the spacing is with 4 6V GC batteries installed. I haven't installed the small gauge wires or temp sensor wires yet, but all 1 AWG, busbar, MRBF fuses, and the fuse block are.

Jon W.

[Jon W]

Forgot to mention as I was following wires behind the panel I was surprised to find that the main negative/ground from the panel was only 10 AWG. Lots of stuff including a wheel pilot for only 10 AWG. Jon W.

[Noah]

Looking very good Jon! There IS light at the end of the tunnel! Discovery is half the fun

[KWKloeber]

No one who knows me would ever think of me as an apologist for the basic electrical systems produced on our boats or those of our vintage by this builder.  Far from it.  A pass? Hardly.

Just askin', for comparison sake, if any other boat builder, ANY, was doing that in those days.  30 years ago.

While there has been some questionable wiring I've seen on my boat, those cases had to do with the main + & - #4 ga. lug ends on the mains.  We've been beating that dead horse for three decades on this forum and the tech notes.

The rest still works:  i.e., all the circuits from my electrical panel to the services.

All I am suggesting for new owners who read these kinds of threads:

1)  The C34 has a basically robust and well designed electrical system

2)  The basic electrical system regarding charging is antiquated because of the wire harness connections (trailer Gummy bears), the ammeter in the cockpit panel, and the alternator output going through the C post of the 1-2-B switch

3)  Corrections to these shortcomings have been documented well & repeatedly on this website so you shouldn't have to reinvent the wheel when you're considering enchancements

Stu -- cant swear 100% but I know i've seen HST on older boats (CRS).  As I said - they will get away with whatever they could.  and still do -- worked on a J/120 recently and the main 120v receptacle (GFCI) at the nav station.   All the negatives (3-4 cables in this box!!!) were twisted together and taped, not even a wire nut -- that was OEM install.

kk

[Jon W]

A couple more in work photo's in case anybodys interested. The first shows the reserve battery on the new bracket, and small tool bag next to it. The last is the ProNautic charger mounted under the Nav Station. I thought running the case ground over the charger was a way to keep it out of the way, but after looking at it I may re-route to follow the other wires. Time will tell. Still lots more to go.

Jon W.

[Noah]

Nice work!! 
When you are done, how about come on over and slap some of that pretty white paint around my lockers too!!

[Jon W]

Sure, but I don't know if this project will ever end. Jon W.

[Jon W]

Question on the location for the positive sense wire for the Balmar MC-614H.

The manual says it can be connected to either the alternator output, the common post of the battery switch, or the positive post on the house bank battery being charged. It would be easier to connect to the alternator output, but recall someone saying the more accurate connection was the positive post on the house bank battery being charged. Is the house bank the better connection point? Thanks for the help.

Jon W.

[KWKloeber]

Question on the location for the positive sense wire for the Balmar MC-614H.

The manual says it can be connected to either the alternator output, the common post of the battery switch, or the positive post on the house bank battery being charged. It would be easier to connect to the alternator output, but recall someone saying the more accurate connection was the positive post on the house bank battery being charged. Is the house bank the better connection point? Thanks for the help.

Jon W.

There's two issues.
1) voltage drop (which says sense at the battery, right?)
2) sensing the battery bank you are actually charging and not the other one - (i.e., if using the 1-2-B selector switch you want to be sensing the battery you are actually charging.)

Look at and digest RC's MaineSail article on external regulation so you are clear on what can happen when sensing one battery (connected to batt +) and charging another thru the 1-2-B. 

Look at what the V loss is between the Alt+ to the 1-2-B (i.e., with your huge cables is there a practical difference?)

kk

[Stu Jackson]

Question on the location for the positive sense wire for the Balmar MC-614H.

The manual says it can be connected to either the alternator output, the common post of the battery switch, or the positive post on the house bank battery being charged. It would be easier to connect to the alternator output, but recall someone saying the more accurate connection was the positive post on the house bank battery being charged. Is the house bank the better connection point? Thanks for the help.

Jon W.

Jon,

From this:

Basic Battery Wiring Diagrams  This is a very good basic primer for boat system wiring: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6604.0.html

is this:

Important Reminder:

Once you do either of these changes, make sure that the BATTERY SENSE wire from your regulator goes to your house bank.  The instructions with external regulators gives you an option to connect it to the back of the alternator.  This will NOT work, since it will be reading almost if not more than a volt LESS than if it was properly placed at your house bank.

1/13/2015 - Maine Sail just published this:   Alternator Regulator Voltage Sensing  http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/regulator_voltage_sensing

Also:

from this:

Alternator Regulator Wiring Diagrams - all three http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4548.0.html

is this:

{4/15/2012}  Battery sense wire since removed from alternator and run directly to the house bank: VERY important - Stu

I'm sure you've read these, but probably a while ago.  There is a LOT there, right?  No one can remember it all.

Keep up the good work.

[KWKloeber]

make sure that the BATTERY SENSE wire from your regulator goes to your house bank. 

Stu,

It very much depends on if/how you use the switch. 

If you sense one battery and charge thru the 1-2-B switch to the other, how will the above wiring work correctly?  For instance, if your house voltage is "up" (that's what the Balmer senses so no charge.)  But you are trying to charge the start battery that is "down," so....... no (or incomplete) charge takes place, right?

RC's article that you reference labels that hookup method as one of his "Fail" hookups.

1/13/2015 - Maine Sail just published this:   Alternator Regulator Voltage Sensing 

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/regulator_voltage_sensing

Volt Sense Blunder - FAIL !!!!!


Take the basic (stock) battery/charging (very simplistic) system, how do you charge the 2nd battery correctly if you sense ONLY the 1st battery?  Mustn't you sense the battery that you are attempting to charge.   If you never use the 1-2-B switch, that's a different situation.

What am I missing here?

Ken

[Stu Jackson]

If you never use the 1-2-B switch, that's a different situation.

What am I missing here?

Ken, the answer is in the links, as well as Maine Sail's discussions of the 1-2-B switch included in the Electrical Systems 101 Topic.  We have our AO going to the house bank, the battery sense is on the house bank and the reserve bank gets charged by our combiner (or for others their echo charger or Blue Sea VSR).  We leave the battery switch on the house bank.

...and charge thru the 1-2-B switch to the other...  is ancient history.

That diagram shows the 1-2-B switch with the AO going to the C post of the switch.  Of course it's a fail, for two reasons. 

[KWKloeber]

If you never use the 1-2-B switch, that's a different situation.

What am I missing here?

Ken, the answer is in the links, as well as Maine Sail's discussions of the 1-2-B switch included in the Electrical Systems 101 Topic.  We have our AO going to the house bank, the battery sense is on the house bank and the reserve bank gets charged by our combiner (or for others their echo charger or Blue Sea VSR).  We leave the battery switch on the house bank.

...and charge thru the 1-2-B switch to the other...  is ancient history.

That diagram shows the 1-2-B switch with the AO going to the C post of the switch.  Of course it's a fail, for two reasons. 

Stu,
Gotcha, " If you never use the 1-2-B switch, that's a different situation"  Using the 1-2-B is "so 80s"     But, remember that if the echo were to fail, emergency charging using the 1-2-B is also "so yesterday."   

So with Jon's specifically, what's the voltage difference between the AO and the HB?  Say, worst case, HB down, bulk charge, short-term, etc.  w/ 16' of 1 AWG cable / 105-amp charge (BTW, will never see all that) the difference from AO to HB is like 0.2 volt.  Under a 50-amp charge, the difference is 0.1v.  Significant?    YBYD(ecision.)

Not that's it's important, but if one were to sense at the 1-2-B, what's the voltage difference?   (In reality, he'd have a 1 awg "sense wire" to the HB, with only the house load going thru it.)  The voltage difference with, say for instance a 20-amp house load, is 0.04 volt.   Significant?

This obviously ignores loss thru terminals, switch, etc.

kk

[Stu Jackson]

Ken, the voltage drop can be significant.  Both Maine Sail & I have noted this, and yes, connections do play a (large) part.

I appreciate you mentioning these basics for others to read, which are included in what could be termed the most three basic links of information that anyone doing this work would/should have read related to charging systems in the Electrical Systems 101 Topic.

Like this one: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.msg44149.html#msg44149

If the echo charger fails you use the B position on the switch WHEN CHARGING, also discussed many times.  I call it B for Backup!   

And the sense wire runs from his MC-614 to the HB, not from the alternator.