Xantrex echo charge v.s. battery isolator(Pro Marinex

[Paulus]

Would appreciate any comments regarding these two.  Thinking about installing one of these.
Thanks,
Paul

[mainesail]

Echo... Easy, simple install no large cable terminations and will do all you need. The ProMariner units are another one of Charlie Sterling's scare tactics/gimmicks where we "must" charge the start bank first. It is a bogus claim but Charlie sometimes prays on the fears of boaters to sell products...... He builds some great stuff but the ProISO (ProMariner) / ProSplit R (Sterling Power) series is not one I am a fan of...

I much prefer a simple ACR over the Pro ISO / Pro Split R.......

[Clay Greene]

Why not use a Blue Sea Systems ACR?  I just purchased one for under $80 at the Defender warehouse sale.  It will accomplish the same thing at less cost and the installation looks to be similar.

http://www.bluesea.com/products/7610/SI-ACR_Automatic_Charging_Relay_-_12_24V_DC_120A

[mainesail]

The ACR is another great option but you need to supply the fusing, large gauge wire and large lug terminations. By the time all is said and done the Echo and ACR come pretty close cost wise. The ACR's are also extremely reliable as are the Echo Chargers.

Echo is maxed to 15A to the start battery

ACR is maxed to 120A if the 120-SI model

I have system going in right now with an Echo charger for start and an Blue Sea ML500 latching ACR for the bow bank of AGM's... The bow thruster on this boat is rated at 376A!!!!!

[Steve W10]

I'm wondering if the answer to OP is that simple?

Does it not also depend on what type of shore charger he uses and if he has a mix of types of batteries on board (LA, AGM, or Gel)?

When I did my stage 1 upgrade (trying to leave as many options open as I could) I went with a multi-output charger capable of charging different types of batteries as well; and if I did have a mix of types (LA, AGM, or Gel) they would need to be hooked up individually to outputs (no crossover).  At that time I read an interesting article about ACRs and how they may affect charging of multi-bank systems.  http://www.bluesea.com/resources/94

If the OP has a single output, and according to the article above, even a multi-output simple charger it seems the EchoCharger is excellent.  If by chance he happens to have a charger such as the Xantrex XC3012, he may need to put in a relay to shut down the EchoCharger while alongside.  No?

As an aside, I know many on this site have bashed the Battery Isolators for their principle of operation (fair enough), but I'm wondering if they have any reputation for poor reliability?

[mainesail]

Steve,

That Xantrex XC charger was very trouble prone and was dropped from the line up a number of years ago (though they still have some 24V ones left and they will dump one on whomever wants one).

Wayne wrote that technical document based on that ONE charger. They were also quite scarce and I have only seen about 6 in real world use. Only one of those six is still operating/working....

The Blue Sea Document Says:
" If you have a multi-output multi-program charger, you may want to consult the manufacturer for proper connections."

There are very, very few multi-program chargers out there. The only time you may want to shut down an ACR is when you have a true multi-bank  / multi-program charger (essentially two entirely separate chargers in one box).


The most important piece of that article is what Wayne opens it up with. Sadly most folks miss it, yet it applies to about 98-99% of the chargers out there:

The Blue Sea Document Says:
"Most multi-output battery chargers have only one program running to control all outputs. Therefore, the outputs proceed through bulk, absorption, float, and equalizing charging stages together. The charging unit will shift from one stage to the next when the last battery has satisfied the conditions to move from the previous stage.

Even if the Start battery is much smaller than the House battery, connecting the batteries together with an ACR or with a manual switch while fed from a multi-output charger causes no ill effects. In fact, overall system efficiency may improve."



If you have an XC charger then you can use it as a multi-output/multi-program charger. Not a horrible idea, just a horrible execution of the idea. If you don't have an XC charger an ACR, ECHO, DUO etc. works fine unless you have a GEL house bank and an AGM or Flooded starter. If you have a GEL house bank then you would be best to also use a GEL starter too. Charging both types effectively gets expensive.

Unless you spend HUGE money, nearly every other charger out there is a single charger, with multiple paralleled outputs all sharing the same single internal charge profile.

Contrary to popular misconception these are NOT multi-program/ multi-output chargers they are single-program/multi-parallel output chargers. This means ALL batteries get the identical charge profile...

Don't be fooled into thinking your "multi-output" charger is two or three chargers inside the box with two or three different charge profiles, nothing could be further from the truth..

You get:

1 Charge Profile
1 Power Supply
2 or 3 Parallel Diode or FET Protected Outputs


Diode Isolaters:

Idolaters, as in diode isolators, are not horribly reliable, do not play well with things like solar or wind and have a myriad of major issues such as voltage drop and the inability for a "smart" charger, wind controller or solar controller to see bank voltage and turn on..

No competent marine electrician I know of has used one in years... With Echo's, Duo's, B2B chargers, VSR relays etc. there is no longer any need for diode isolators or the myriad of issues that go along with them. We no longer use buggy-whips either..

I ripped one out two days ago that helped DESTROY three battery banks in less than two years. Chronic under charging will do that.. Alt was set at 14.2V batts were seeing about 13.2 - 13.6V after the diode isolator, depending upon the load. These are batts that needed 14.6V.... Alt was a problem, charger was a problem and the isolator made both of these problems MUCH worse. The bow thruster & start battery diodes were also blown so those banks had zero charging not just added voltage drop. The diodes blew within weeks of the new & bigger bow thruster being installed.

Standard ACR/VSR relays, Yandina, Blue Sea etc. are extremely reliable as are Echo Chargers and Duo Chargers. The Duo may not work for all situations because it trips off if a bank needs more than 30A and there is minimal hysteresis built into it for it to get the battery to where it will take less than 30A in repeated try's.......  The Sterling B2B (DC to DC or battery to battery chargers) is also good but pricey and bulky.

[Stu Jackson]

Another way to look at this is to simplify your electrical system.  Mixing battery types may not be the most effective way to do this.  For years I have been consistenly wondering why skippers place start or reserve banks back underneath the aft cabin.  They claim it's because they are closer to the starter.  I contend that a longer wire simply needs to be a bit bigger to make up any voltage drop.  It's that simple.  Our C34s have great places to install mutliple batteries without reorting to putting one where you can't get to it.

Anyone who mixes gels and LA is asking for trouble, since the gels require a much lower charging voltage, which is hard to do.

AGMs, as noted many times, have their own issues, besides exorbitant pricing (and I believe) are an unnecessary application for 95% of recreational boats.  Maine Sail has contributed a few AGM stories available in the "Electrical 101" topic, so I won't copy them here.

Jim Moe wrote a great article on battery selection 15 to 20 years ago, in the C34 Tech wiki.  Not much has changed.  LA are in most cases the best bang for your buck.

Then, charging becomes rather simple as far as voltage is concerned.

Isolators are a waste of voltage.  Yandina combiners, Blue Sea ACRs, echo chargers and to a lesser extent Duo Chargers are all simple ways to parallel your two banks automatically.

Heck, you could avoid that altogether, run your AO to your house bank and use the B position on the switch!  

[Paulus]

Thanks Stu, like things simple.
Appreciate all the input.
Paul

[Stu Jackson]

As an aside, I know many on this site have bashed the Battery Isolators for their principle of operation (fair enough), but I'm wondering if they have any reputation for poor reliability?

Steve,

You and Maine Sail (and I) may have been discussing two different "isolators."

Your ProMariner is completely different than a "standard" voltage drooping isolator known to most of us.

It is critically important to be specific about the differences between these two items of hardware.

Your "isolator" operates similarly, but differently, than a standard combiner.

MOST of us believe an "isolator" is one of these pieces of junk that somehow still find their way on board some boats with skippers who don't do their homework about electrical systems, and which Maine Sail was referring to:

http://promariner.com/products/prolsocharge-series/marine-battery-isolators/

Junk then, junk now.

[Paulus]

I appreciate the input from both of you.  I have not installed one yet, working on my homework.  Torresen recommended the Pro Mariner isolator.  I much prefer the simple way, Stu, that you suggested.  I have been reading the tech notes on electric 101 and appreciate all of the research that has gone into this. I did read Mainesail's articles on isolators and had decided not to put one in until your suggestion of running the AO wire directly to the house bank as it does that now but the long way around and in the past had to switch to charge both batteries.  Using Stu's idea, I would only have to switch to charge the starting battery.
Thanks,
Paul

[Steve W10]

Great thread guys, and I think you cleared up my concern for Paul.

I'm usually the last one to jump on the technology train, heck I still have a pre-flip-phone.  But when doing the first part of my upgrade I really wanted to leave options open that's why I went with the XC3012 and ProIsoCharge each with 3 outputs, dreaming one day of a windlass, and with the possibility of mixed types of batteries.
Since then I've been more than convinced that the standard pattern you guys are following is the best.  And I'll totally agree that Lead Acid all around is best.

I've had 3 seasons on my XC3012 and ProIsoCharger and until this next phrase jinxes me, they've been great.  I do appreciate the insights on the XC MaineSail, I think I read about their poor performance / reliability a few years back and wasn't surprised to hear that they were discontinued. (I don't know what Paul has for shore charger that's why I piped up here in the first place)

Here's where I first asked about the ProIsoCharger.... http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6212.0.html
And here in Canada it cost the exact same as the Echo Charger, so with my XC3012 it was a no-brainer.

Stu, excellent pick-up on the different types of isolators.  You got my attention earlier because I remember the ProIsoCharger was touted as being a no-loss device, and I believe it to be so.

As for location of the Start Battery, that does become a very individualized decision.  I love mine under the aft cabin; I don't even look at it during our rather short sailing season so its location is no big deal (further aft and stbd makes me happy too).  Also I'm now going to 4 x 6volts for my House Bank, and unless I'm mistaken there is not enough room in the standard battery box for those plus a dedicated Start Battery.  If a guy's got to put it elsewhere anyway, why not in some otherwise unused space in the boat.

[Paulus]

Steve, I have my 4 (T125) in the standard battery box.  They fit nicely.
Paul

[Paulus]

Thanks for all the input.  Now I can make a decision.  Wish I had read Mainesail's article on battery monitors before I had purchased the BMV 600S. Going to try and return it for the Smartguage Monitor.  Need something simple.(also still using a flip phone)
Thanks for all the good advice.
Paul