135 v. 150, Jib Only & Heavy Weather Sailing

Clay Greene · February 01, 2012, 09:42:52 AM

We have (and always have had) a 150 percent genoa on Serendipity. However, we also have had a tendency toward a lot of weather helm as the wind gets over 10 knots apparent to the point that we need to roll in some of the sail by 15 knots. That, of course, compromises the sail shape.

I am contemplating purchasing a 135 in order to minimize the weather helm issue. Anyone have experience with this? I have read that there is not much added benefit between the 150 and the 135 in terms of boat speed. We are recreational racers and do not tend to sail much in very light air when the 150 would probably be of the most benefit. Serendipity is a Mark I boat so we have the smaller rudder, which I recognize is the source of most of the problem but I am not inclined to go as far as replacing the rudder at this point.

Thoughts, suggestions, warnings? Thanks.

Ralph Masters · February 01, 2012, 09:58:50 AM

We run a 135 here in San Diego and it works fine. Most of our wind is in the 7 - 12 knot range and we don't have problem steering a straight line. When it does get up above that it does tend to start over powering us and we some times will roll it in about a third of the sail. On several occasions when the wind has come up to 12 - 15 or more we'll sail on the main only.

Ralph
Ciao Bella

Stu Jackson · February 01, 2012, 10:39:28 AM

Many folks have reported that they roll their large jibs in first. Our experience has always been that reducing the size of the main with a reef should be the first step. This came about a few ways: On our C22 and C25 we didn't have roller furling, so we have had summer and winter jibs for our area - smaller 85-95% jibs for the higher summer winds and 110%s for the lighter winter winds. In the summer, when the winds came up and we couldn't furl our small jibs, the next step was to reef the main. Results: worked every time, and has since 1983. For our furling jibs on our C34, we also have two, an 85% and a 110% and I do the same summer/winter seasonal switch. I also have what I call our April to September mainsail reef, since unless it's an unusually calm day during the summer, a smaller jib and a reefed main is all that our boat needs to truck right along. For racing, we use our "big" jib and sometimes leave the main up, although we recently did very well against folks with 130s and full mains and walked away from them because they were overpowered.

So, consider that before reefing your genoas, try reefing the main first. You may be pleasantly surprised. Since our boats are masthead rigged sloops, the driver is the jib, not the main. I've sailed a lot on just the jib and prefer it than just the main.

Ralph Masters · February 01, 2012, 10:52:07 AM

Stu,
I can roll in the head sail from the safety and comfort of the cockpit, turn up and pull it in quick and easy. Where if I reef the main it means going top side.
If I were going to go from, say, San Diego to Catalina I would reef the main.
Thanks for the insight,

Ralph

Stu Jackson · February 01, 2012, 10:53:17 AM

We have double line mainsail reefing. Never have to leave the cockpit. We did have to on the 22 & 25.

Ralph Masters · February 01, 2012, 11:37:08 AM

Ahhhh, that explains it. Some day when I'm rich I'll have in mast furling on the main too, then life will be great.....................

Ralph

tonywright · February 01, 2012, 01:50:32 PM

Weather helm is caused by having the centre of the sail plan too far aft. The solution is always to move it forward. That is best accomplished by reefing the main first, then the jib. A 135 would definitely help, but the best solution is always a combination. When racing I would put in a mainsail reef if in doubt. Sailing upright always beats sailing with any significant heel. Reduces drag and leeway and improves precision steering. It is always easier to shake out a reef if you don't need it, than to put one in.

My 2c.

Tony

Tom Soko · February 01, 2012, 02:01:45 PM

Ralph,
It's not that hard or complicated to set up reefing to be controlled from the cockpit. It only takes a few blocks and rope clutches. The safety factor and convenience FAR outweigh the price. I agree with Tony and Stu. Reef the main first, and THEN the genoa. There's a bunch of photos of the reefing system I installed on my C36, starting at about picture #105? at the following link:
http://julandra.shutterfly.com/
Hope this helps.

Craig Illman · February 01, 2012, 02:42:19 PM

First, I agree that the main is contributing most to your weather helm, including possibly extra mast rake. Before reefing, you could flatten with more outhaul or cunningham. Also, have you allowed the genoa to twist at the top by bringing the jib cars back? Many of these things can be made easier by adding and bringing the controls back to the cockpit.

more things to ponder........

hump180 · February 01, 2012, 05:44:24 PM

I agree with the comments above...the poblem may be center of effort. 15 knts wind will have some helm, but nothing that couldn't be helped with flattening the mail or or depowering by letting the traveler down...and of course reefing the main is also an option. Your mast rake could also be a factor. If the mast is raked aft it can add helm. You could possibly rig the masthead slightly forward and that should reduce the helm. We raced this summer and won after a 5 hour grind to weather (15-18knts app). Helm was there...a bit fatiguing but manageable with depowering the main with traveler and sheet out. 7knts most of the way. This summer we will beregging with the mast head 2" forward of last year...should improve an already managable weather helm.

Ron Hill · February 01, 2012, 06:55:24 PM

Clay : You didn't mention if your C34 is a standard or a tall rig? BIG DIFFERANCE!!!!!

1. Most tall rigged C34s find that they need a 135% as the 150% is overpowering
2. You might consider a back stay adjuster to flatten out the main
3. Think about adding on to the rudder as I did. A new rudder was too costly and it did the trick
4. Movable Genoa cars to help keep the best headsail shape when it's reefed

2, 3 & 4 above have a number of articles written about them in the Mainsheet tech notes

I have a back stay adjuster, an elliptical rudder, standard rig, movable Genoa cars, and a 150% bi radial cut sail that has a great reefed shape!!

Hope this helps A few thoughts

scotty · February 01, 2012, 08:23:44 PM

I have a 130 jib. I was out yesterday with 20+ knots of wind. Even with the main reefed, there was significant weather helm when the main sheet traveler was centered. When I put the main sheet traveler out to de-power (flatten) the main, it made a significant improvement in the weather helm. Have you been doing that? By the way, we had a really fun sail. A Moore 24 was out with 5 guys on the weather rail. My son and I were on our boat and it was stable, dry and moving real good!

horsemel · February 02, 2012, 03:46:30 PM

We too reef the main. I don't understand why people think it is such a pain in the rear to reef the main. We do it and it keeps the boat flatter, sailing better and the admiral is a whole lot happier. (I would not reef so quickly except for the need to maintain marital bliss.) AFter looking at Jolandra's website i intend to do what they have done. Looks simple enough and will make it easier yet to reef.

Clay Greene · February 02, 2012, 04:41:30 PM

We do have the tall rig and the smaller rudder so that is why we get overpowered in lighter air. We will of course lower the traveler and reef the main if necessary to depower but my thought is that we could put the main and genny back more into a natural balance (at least in our preferred sailing conditions of 8-15 knots apparent) with a 135 rather than the 150.

Ron, I wish I had your skills to do the rudder remodel but I am man enough to admit that I think it is beyond my capabilities.

Sundance · February 03, 2012, 05:12:16 AM

We are on Lake Erie and I notice you are in WI, so we have pretty much the same wind conditions. Two years ago we bought a 130, primarily because it was cheap ($1200) since the loft already had a sail that another customer did not want after ordering. It has made a huge difference. With full sail I don't get much weather helm until it blows 15kn. I will be the first to admit that when the wind drops much below 8, I want more sail. No one likes being the slow boat on the water.

You said you are a recreational racer, which means go big and figure out how to handle the sail, otherwise you will be a cruiser rounding the buoys behind a bunch of racers. If you are sailing JAM, you will feel a huge difference down wind.

Cruiser - 130% is great.
Racer - 155% is great.