Interesting situation - almost sunk the boat!

[Ron Hill]

My slip mate next to me has a Westerly 34 (center cockpit) about the late 1980s vintage.  He has a Volvo engine and a Volvo drippless packing gland. 
Before he left the dock he ran his normal "preflight", which included squeezing the billows of the packing gland.  All was found to be OK.
He'd traveled (motered) about 2 miles down river when he asked the 1st Mate to get his chart that was down below.  The 1st Mate came back and said the water was just above the floor boards !!  He called out a MAYDAY and several people responded. 
Coming to his aide was Tow Boat US, a local Sea Rescue and a some other individual boats.  Someone thru him a line which he secured to his boat and was under tow.  The boat was eventually being towed to the travel lift by the Sea Rescue from the original "tower".  After the boat was lifted the 1st tower claimed SALVAGE !!

The moral to this story is two fold :
1. The first question to ask when someone throws you a line is "is this a tow or salvage" !!  Then you have to decide if you will accept or decline.
2. If you have a bellow for your drippless packing be aw here that when the bellows breaks, you better find a travel lift fast.  I've never been an advocate of the bellows.  As I've sad many times you can use a shoe string to stuff in a regular packing gland if you have nothing else.

As I find out more I'll keep you posted.  Why he didn't beach the boat is beyond me, as we only have a 3 ft tide?

In the Jan 2010 issue of Seaworthy, Boat US talks about towing vs salvage.  You might want to read it!!

A few items to think about. 

[Stu Jackson]

Here's the link to that article that Ron mentioned:

http://www.boatus.com/towing/salvage.asp

[Indian Falls]

As a newcomer to all this I'd like to ask a couple dumb questions:

1.)  is'nt a maday a bit extreme for that situation? 

2.)  won't a bilge pump out run a pack gland failure?

3.)  I have 3 pumps as you all know ... the bilge pump, the manual, and the shower sump. 
      Is a dripless pack gland failure really that big?

4.) Get to any slip and stuff a walmart shopping bag in and around the prop shaft... not a good idea? well yeah you have to go over the side, but...

Just wondering...   

[Ron Hill]

Dan : All I know is that the water was above the floor boards and the bilge pump was not pumping it out faster than it was coming in. 
Don't believe that he knew it was the packing gland until after the boat was pulled !!  The boat took on enough water to cause the engine to quit.

Very easy to second guess, but think about what you would do if you were in the same situation and not know where the water was coming in from!!  A few thoughts

[Stu Jackson]

1.)  is'nt a maday a bit extreme for that situation?  

2.)  won't a bilge pump out run a pack gland failure?

3.)  I have 3 pumps as you all know ... the bilge pump, the manual, and the shower sump.  
     Is a dripless pack gland failure really that big?

4.) Get to any slip and stuff a walmart shopping bag in and around the prop shaft... not a good idea? well yeah you have to go over the side, but...

Welcome.

1.  Yes
2.  Yes
3.  No (if by dripless you mean better material in the stuffing box)  Yes if it's a bellows type, like PSS, which is Ron's point
4.  Yes, and you can do that anywhere, you don't need a slip, and can do it from INSIDE the boat with a plastic bag or a simple rag as long as the engine is out of gear, but because of #3 it's not an issue (we change out packing gland in the water -- this is a recurring "issue" and can be done without sinking the boat!!! )

[Indian Falls]

Thanks for the info, (I was trying to be gentle, maybe it didn't read that way) 

I'm not so much second guessing.  That story sort of shocked me and undermined my confidence a bit.
I was being incredulous if that's the right term.  Just glad it didn't sink. 

So what was the other problem? the one where he couldn't shed the water?

[Albreen]

I recall hearing the vessel in distress should throw it's line to the towing vessel and that this simple act helps to negate the claim for salvage rights. Does anyone know if this is true?

[Ron Hill]

Paul : Read the Seaworthy article!!

Guys - when the water is above the floor boards and the bilge pump is not keeping up, not knowing where the water is coming from, and the engine quits -- most people tend to get a bit excited. 
I guess everyone, except those tapping out advice on this form!?!

[Indian Falls]

I think this thread was about salvage rights in the first place, sorry that would be my fault.

Just one last question if I may, (or you could let me know to start another thread)

I've tried to ask this three ways already, I hope the posted question is in the right context..

What's the water level inside the boat where water comes over the side and imminent failure to be buoyant occur?

I hope no one knows from personal experience.

Ron, I hope we can get the rest of that story soon!

Thanks!!

[waterdog]

Down in Zihua this year, I was one of many responders to a Mayday call for a grounding of a sailboat.   It was being pounded against rocks in surf.   I doubt the owner stopped to negotiate when he was thrown a tow line.   

The discussion afterwards among cruisers I found quite interesting.   Many were saying that the owner shouldn't have called "Mayday" in international waters because now he was vulnerable to a salvage claim from the charter boat that had the line on and ultimately hauled him off the rocks. 

The boat was in obvious imminent peril.   Is there any legal significance between "Mayday" "Pan Pan" or a general broadcast for assistance?   Does "Mayday" automatically make it a salvage situation?   

[Ken Juul]

From Wikipedia.
"A vessel is considered in peril if it is in danger or could become in danger. Examples of a vessel in peril are when it is aground or in danger of going aground. Prior to a salvage attempt the salvor receives permission from the owner or the master to assist the vessel. If the vessel is abandoned no permission is needed.

The amount of the award depends on, in part, the value of the salved vessel, the degree of risk involved and the degree of peril the vessel was in. Legal disputes do arise from the claiming of salvage rights. To reduce the amount of a claim after an accident, boat owners or skippers often remain on board and in command of the vessel; they do everything possible to minimise further loss and seek to minimize the degree of risk the vessel is in. If another vessel offers a tow and the master or owner negotiates an hourly rate before accepting then salvage does not apply."

What I get from this is who throws the rope does not matter, there must be an agreement between parties before the "salvage operation" begins.

[Ron Hill]

Dan : The answer to the question you are asking can only be answered by Gerry Douglas - C34 designer !!

Let us know what his answer is. 

[Stu Jackson]

Just one last question if I may, (or you could let me know to start another thread)

I've tried to ask this three ways already, I hope the posted question is in the right context..

What's the water level inside the boat where water comes over the side and imminent failure to be buoyant occur?

I hope no one knows from personal experience.

Dan,  I suggest keeping it here, rather than starting another thread.  Additional threads make linking them and folowing the concepts and Q&As a bit harder.

Water level:  I think there are two answers to this.  One, Ron is right, as far as designed water inside to where the boat would achieve neutral buoyancy would be one the designer needs to answer.  I suppose one could do the math on the designed or real displacement and the weight of water, but that becomes a very complicated water volume calculation and volume inside the boat.  Even if your floorboards are floating, so's the boat!

The other one is easy!  When the water starts coming up from inside the boat and over the companionway steps... It seems to be more of a question of the water coming up and out from inside than over the rail and down 'cuz if it's only that you're heeled over and the water is coming from outside to inside, that's not necessarily dangerous because you can stop the heeling by dumping the sails and righting the boat, assuming you're heading upwind and beating with heeling.  I suppose that water could come into the cockpit from a following sea out in the ocean or in a gnarly Bay, too.

Our group's conservative 23+ years of experience indicates that few have really buried MORE than the rail, and even so, the rail gets buried forward of the companionway because the widest beam is well forward of the companionway.  Think about it...

FWIW, we haven't heard of anyone sailing a C34 UNDER.

I must admit to feeling like our boat was a submarine one day sailing west against a fine breeze on an ebb on San Pablo Bay, a notoriously shallow bay with steep short waves, kinda like what we hear about Lake Erie from our members and respondents who sail there.  No water got in.  We floated free and lived to sail the rest of that day and many others...  Days like that make you really LOVE your dodger.  An important point:  with a small 85% jib and a single reef in the main, our tiny ST3000 autopilot steered her the entire trip across SP Bay and we stayed dry behind the dodger.

Trust your boat, she's really solid.  And listen to waterdog, and the others who have done the Baja Ha-Ha, they've REALLY had the experiences.  As have many others in other venues.

[Ted Pounds]

I do not think "mayday" is too extreme for this situation.  In the flying biz there have been too many times when pilots have not called "mayday" (or "emergency", the equivalent when in US airspace).  In one famous case this resulted in a 707 running out of fuel while being vectored to land at JFK.  If this guy had NOT called "mayday" and his boat sank he would look a lot more foolish (or worse) than if he called "mayday" and it turned out to be trivial.  As an aside, I always emphasized to my wife that if she had to make a call on the radio in a situation where I could not, then the first words from her mouth needed to "Mayday mayday, mayday".  When you're up to your ankles (or worse) in water is not the time to be worried about proper radio procedure...

[Kyle Ewing]

From a US Coast Guard Auxillary page (http://sandiegocgaux.org/advisories.htm):

•MAYDAY means there is "grave and immediate danger." Immediate assistance is required.

•PAN-PAN (pronounced pahn-pahn) is used when the safety of a boat or person is in jeopardy. Man-overboard, missing or overdue boat are sent with the PAN-PAN signal.

•SECURITE (pronounced say-cure-e-tay) is used to pass navigation information or weather warnings.

The "mayday" may be grounds for salvage because the boat was declared to be at immediate risk.  If Tow Boat US used their pumps it would bolster the case for salvage.

I've never had water over my floorboards but I once lost propulsion near the mouth of a small, flooded river on a windless day.  I figured I only had 5-10 minutes before I was washed into the breakwall.  I was certainly excited/scared and made some mistakes (I was leaving New Buffalo but initially reported my position as St. Joseph) and my non-swimming friend was very anxious, but in the end it all worked out.

I issued a PAN-PAN to alert anyone around in case things deteriorated.  The Coast Guard responded immediately and stood by.  I quickly looked for the cause, anchored, then cleared the emergency with the Coast Guard after I was safely anchored.  The boat was towed back to my home port and repaired.

********

In response to the question about how much water to sink a C34, I figure about 3500 gallons based on the information from http://www.oceannavigator.com/content/making-emergency-hull-repair.  A 2 inch hole 1 foot below the waterline produces a flow of 47 gallons/minute so you'd have over an hour before the boat sinks.  To put it in perspective, 10 people weigh the equivalent of about 240 gallons of water, certainly enough water to flood the floorboards, but not that much effect on the waterline.