Radar Detector

[pklein]

Before I put a marine grade radar detector on my Christmas list, I was wondering if my automotive radar detector would serve as a cheap substitute.

Last summer we were night sailing across Lake Michigan in what semed to be a light fog.  Much to my surprise a large freighter was already past my bow when I first saw its lights.  Even though we were on a careful watch, the fog prevented me from seeing him.  I spoke with the freighter captain on CH 13 and he indicated that he had spotted me on his radar and was sounding his fog horn and trying to raise me on the VHF.  I can't believe I didn't respond to either of his warnings, but that's how accidents happen.  Fortunately, he had my course plotted and therefore protected me from a possible collision 15 miles out in the middle of the lake.  

If I had a radar detector on board the pings from his radar would have caused me to be alerted to his nearby presence.  If anybody knows if my old car radar detector will or will not detect the frequency of marine radar units, please advise. Otherwise I'm getting something to improve the situation.  Obviously I don't have onboard radar and would have to change the posts on my Edson binnacle to accomodate the LCD at the pilot station.  Radar is not in my capital budget for this year since I have to have my 11 year old dodger rebuilt.  All the plastic seems to have deteriorated at once!


PS  Who is going to be at Strictly Sail in Chicago this year?  We should start a post so those of us who are present can get together.

Phill Klein
Andiamo #977
Montrose Harbor - Chicago

[Rodney]

Marine radars operate on a variety of bands (http://www.aewa.org/Library/rf_bands.html). Perhaps out there somewhere, someone has done a comparative study between automotive radar detectors and their usefulness in a marine environment. Regardless, I wouldn't mess around. The difference between having a radar and seeing what's actually going on out there versus some sort of passive reflector/detector is immense.

Whether a skipper decides to have a radar is an individual decision. I currently day sail only on and around San Diego bay and have made decision that the cost/benefit/risk ratio rules towards currently not owning a radar (knowing the radar reflector I fly is little more than a lame talisman). Even in this case, I eye the almost constant (this year anyway) marine layer lying just off Point Loma with a touch of nervousness.

I've also spent years motor-sailing between Cape Horn and the Palmer (Antarctic) Peninsula and wouldn't dream of NOT having a radar.

I know it's always easy recommend the expensive solution (particularly when it's not your money) when it comes to safety. But in this case I think the choice is radar or not. Never an untested half-way measure.

[Stu Jackson]

ONE MAN'S OPINION

(Shamelessly copied on September 16, 1997 from
Cruising World magazine, August 1995)

I can no longer remain silent.  At first I thought it was just a few eccentrics, but I am now afraid that I am beginning to see a pattern. I think that the final straw was the recent article I read on sailing in fog that said that if I didn't have a radar on my boat, perhaps I had misappropriated my boating budget.  I must confess: I have no radar.
 
Not only do I not have a radar, but I have no
intentions of buying one.  My new gear priorities
list does not even contain this item.

I must go on:  I do not have a GPS.  Can you
imagine that I actually sail - even cruise - without one?

There's more.  I do not have roller furling.  Yes,
that's right.  I actually have more than one jib
and what is more, I have to hank it on - one hank
at a time - every time I go sailing.  Wait!  When
the wind is up and the seas build I actually go
forward, on the top of the deck and - now get this
- change to a different jib.  Can you believe that
anyone can be so primitive?

More.  My only electronics are a Loran (recently
purchased), a speed/log, a depthsounder and a
cheap VHF.  Yes, I will admit it.  My VHF is a low
priced model!  Furthermore, my electronics are
not interlinked or whatever fancy jargon
aficionados use to indicate that their electronics
talk to each other.  No, I do not have an
anemometer.  At times I can be caught standing
on deck estimating the wind speed.  I even go so
far as to make sail changes based on the boat's
sailing characteristics.  I have never told anyone
this, but I am ready to bare all:  I don't have an
apparent wind indicator.  I am not lying.  We use
a piece of - I am so embarrassed - a piece of
cassette tape tied to the shroud.  I do believe it
was from "Smurfs Do the Whitbread" or
something like that.

At any rate, we survive and make port without
calling for assistance.  We enjoy wonderful meals cooked on the Weber that hangs off the stern pulpit and corn on the cob cooked on, of all
things, an alcohol stove.

I could go on and on.  By now you must have
figured out that my boat is OLD (1973).  Heaven
forbid!

It's hard to imagine that I could enjoy sailing
under these abominable conditions, but the truth
is that I am as addicted as the guy who has all
the equipment.  I am proud to say that my boat is
not a marina queen - she lives on a mooring -
from which it is easier to sail her.  Her name is
Trav'ler and I make sure she lives up to her
name.

We have lost sight of what this sport is all about.  We have lost sight of nature, of ourselves, and our God, unless your God is powered by 12 volts.  Mine is not.  Once - and I remember this - an RDF was considered a luxury.  I remember a trip in fog so thick (you know the cliché) and we made it home with nothing more than a compass, a depthsounder, a sumlog and a VHF.

Once we even did a fog run without the sumlog,
as it had broken.  We just estimated our speed.
I know my boat so well that I could estimate her
speed within a fraction of a knot.  What
tremendous satisfaction there is in reaching your
port using the true skills of a seaman.

We often hear the lament of how nonsailors
perceive our sport to be one that is reserved for
the wealthy.  Is it any wonder when we read
articles about how we all should have radar, or
how our latest mast project only cost $1,200?
These are elitist statements made by people
who know nothing about the lives most of us live.
Sailing can be done safely and enjoyably on a
budget and I feel it is about time that those of us who sail on a budget speak up.


Joe Higgins
Crystal Lake, Illinois

[Ted Pounds]

Phill,

I believe there are radar dectectors on the market for marine use.  Check the various marine catalogs for one.  I know I've seen them in Cruising World.  The advantage to a detector is it warns you even when you're not looking at the radar because you're busy with something else.  Obviously it would then be handy to have a radar to see who is looking at you.  I must confess though that I get along fine without either.  I just keep a good watch and listen.  I also put my kids to work on crossings, offering money to the first to spot  freighters.

I hope to go to Stricly Sail Chicago, but I don't know my schedule yet (I'm an airline pilot and it changes every month).  If we do go I'll probably shoot for Friday.  

Ted Pounds
"Molly Rose", #447
North Point Marina, Illinois

[Admin]

Yes, there is such a device on the market, although the price ($1282.50) seems rather steep.  See http://www.prosartech.com/html/activecho.html

Dave Smith
webmaster@c34.org
Bear Territory #1421

[bjmansfield]

this calls for the soapbox:

Although many of his points are valid, I don't know which is worse, Joes "elitists" which can't leave the slip without every imaginable piece of electronics crammed on board and turned on or the reverse-snobs such as Joe.  I suppose Joes car has a hand crank for starting, no turn signals and no heater as real men dont need such things.

Where we sail you would have to be a complete idiot to not have a *good* VHF and maybe a handheld as a spare and have them on at all times.  When the winds are up and tides running and a tanker, a tow pushing 3 empty barges, navy minesweeper, commercial fisherman, oil rig supply boat, etc. etc. is comming down the rather narrow ship channel and comes on channel 16 requesting a 2 whistle from the west bound sailing vessel, i damned well want to know it.  Not long ago a barge tow nearly had to push his barges aground in the ICW as not to run over a sailboat which either didnt have a VHF or was not monitoring it... i'm not sure all tow drivers will do that.

I dont have a radar yet but will just as soon as the boat units are available.  I just don"t like the idea of not knowing a tanker is bearing down on me during a thunderstorm or fog or that i'm fixing to hit an oil platform.

As for hank on sails, at 3 in the morning out in the gulf, i much prefer to reef the jib from the safety of the cockpit rather than the pitching, wet, slippery foredeck thank you.
 
Personally, i put safety above ego.. but to each his own....

[beang]

This thread is just too good not to add a comment…  

The $1,200 unit Dave Smith found is similar to an IFF in an aircraft.  The unit detects a signal and repeats (transmits) the signal back to the sending unit.  The theory is that the sender has a better opportunity to pick up the boosted signal and acquire a target he wouldn't normally see.  What you get is a tone or light signal to let you know that someone, somewhere has "painted" you and that you have greatly improved his chances of picking you up (you'll probably look like the USS Enterprise on his scope).  The price tag seems reasonable considering you're purchasing one quarter of a complete radar system.   This detector is actually an emitter, requiring you to get the same type of FCC license as you would for radar.

The problem with "fuzz buster" detectors is twofold.  You don't get range and bearing data, so you don't know if your threat is moving towards you or somewhere else.  Second, you have no way of distinguishing between multiple threats.  Is one guy moving away but another on a collision course with you?  In a crowded space like San Francisco, that thing would be going on constantly but not giving you much in the way of useful information.  You only get one tone or light as a warning - no scope to display the tactical information on.  With automobile detectors this is not a problem as all you want to know is if you're being painted and can you slow down fast enough before your return is strong enough for him to acquire.  

An X band fuzz buster might be able to pick marine radar (I'm not sure on the signal strengths and how much band width is covered).  The navies of the world spend a lot of money on these types of "passive" detection systems (One of the motto's in the ECM community is:  "He who illuminates first - dies!").  My old company sold a real neat unit that went on fast patrol boats for $1.2m.  Harpoon missile targeting interface extra (Hey, really enforce your rights as stand-on vessel!).  You could probably use Garmin's gimbaled radar mast and  the ECM station would fit in nicely where the galley table used to be.   The Israeli's had a unit in the $800k range but it only had bearing accuracy of five degrees - not good if one of you is a really fast mover.

Of course, all this junk only works if the other guy has his radar turned on.

[rdavison]

OK, here's my two cents worth...So far, none of my automotive radar detectors has worked well at receiving marine radar.  Without doing the research to refresh my memory or to put exact numbers on it, here's what I think is going on.

The small marine radars most of us use are working at 3 cm or about 9.5 Ghz. The larger radars on ships are typically operating at 10 cm or about 3.3 Ghz.  

Old police radars operated in X band at 10.525 Ghz.  Newer ones are multiband units that operate at X band plus additional higher frequency bands including light frequencies for laser guns.

As you can see, the best bet for detection would be at X band, and yet, I haven't been able to hear a radar that wasn't within a few hundred feet.  The most important radars to hear would be the 10 cm radars that freighters often use but here the chances of detection are near zero as they are way outside the passband of the auto radar detector.

Years ago, I built a doppler radar from a Gunnplexer tuned to the 10 Ghz amateur band.  I used it to evaluate the front end of my then X band auto radar detector and found the bandwidth surprisingly narrow - which would explain why it didn't receive 3 cm marine radar.  In addition, the auto radar detector is designed to process a continuous wave doppler signal, not a pulsed marine signal.

If you think about it, you know this already, as you would be hearing false alarms on your auto radars any time you were in a port area or near a marine waterway!

Randy Davison  #1268 1993 k7voe

[Tom P, IMPULSE #233, '86]

Years ago there was a marine "radar detector" developed/sold; I believe it was called a C.A.R.D.; collision avoidance radar detection, or something like that...I beleive it sold for $500 or $600...It was developed right here in Norf, Va...Many years ago, I met a friend of the developer who had the unit on his boat for testing...The unit had a 360 degree set of lights that would give you the general direction of the hit; no compass heading, just a series of circular lights...It looked like a pretty neat device; very small display, and the antenna resembled a GPS mushroom antenna...The guy said the unit was intended for offshore use only, since it gave off too many readings in a busy harbor (Norf has a lot of ship traffic and multiple airports as well)...
I believe Practical Sailor may have done an article on it as well...
My memory tells me it looked like a neat toy, but would only really benefit me if I was offshore and the other guy was actually running his radar...
Tom P.