C34 Boat Speed - Wing Keel, Std Rig

[Steve Sayian]

Last December (2005) we purchased a 1999 Mk II wing keel model.  We love the boat for its accommodations, motoring ability (M35B w/15x9 3-blade) and full electronics suite (Raymarine 2KW radar, C-80 GPS/Chart Plotter, Autohelm 4000, Knot/Depth/Log/AWI).  Prior to that we had a 1983 C-30 std rig, fin keel.  We noticed this summer that the performance of the 34 was less than that of a 30.  By that I mean we were waxed by several 30s while making transits.  We have a full-batten main and a 135 Genoa.  Granted the 30s had a 150 Genny but 4+ feet in LOA and waterlins shoulod have at leat given me a fair chance.  We have been sailing for over 30 years and not to toot my horn, but we are pretty good sailers
I have done several years doing PHRF races in Boston Harbor crewing on an Evelyn 26 and in our fleet was a C-34 tall rig (I think she is late 80s vintage) that did very well.  Anyway, my question is how does the MkII wing stack/std rig up against the fin/ std rig models?  I have read and spoken to people with both the fin and wing models and the consensus seems to be the wing slips to windward a bit with 'minor' degradation in performance.
I have read the articles on the Forum about the weight (12.5 K lbs vs 16-17 k Lbs) that is on the brochures as opposed to those people have actually weighed their boats.
I'm not ready to get rid of the boat but am looking for some enlightenment from out there if I'm  doing something wrong or this is 'just the way the 34 is', which is OK!
As all sailboaters do, when approaching another sailboat, that constitutes a race!
Appreciate any suggestions or insight you have about this.
Thanks,
Steve

[Stu Jackson]

Steve

I'd start with this: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=3137.0  See George Bean's comments about sailing two same boats together, same sails and props, one wing one fin.

I got there by doing a search on "wing".  It picks up a lot of words with ...wing in them, but if you look through the posts, you'll find a lot of information that's pertinent to your question.

I don't recall any comparative discussion about C30s, but we get waxed by a C27 in the mdiwinter races here all the time.  Lots has to do with PHRF ratings, too, because while we may have larger boats, it doesn't always mean that they're faster than something shorter (i.e., Merit 25 s also run right by us).

Doesn't sound like you're doing ANYTHING wrong -- just try to work on the realistic comparisons.

Ummm...I'd keep the boat

[Rick Johnson]

I've noticed the samething here on Lake Travis.  My slip neighbor has a 1985 C30 and seems to stomp me 9 times out of 10.  We decided last week to enter our local Saturday race series, with my neighbor acting as "crew" on my C34.  I have high hopes of learning a whole lot more about sailing or at least better triming and sailing faster.  I let you know how it works out...

Cheers

[Ted Pounds]

I regularly 'wax' a C36 in our club that has a wing keel (Molly rose is a fin/std).  So I think the wing keel plays a significant part.  That said,  I did three things to my boat that had a relatively big impact on boat speed.  I swapped the 135 for a 155, redid the bottom with  VC-17, a hard anti-fouling paint, and switched to a folding prop from a 3 blade fixed prop.  I went from back of the pack to winning both Wednesday night series in one summer. 

[dave davis]

STEVE
I have been racing my C34 Wind Dragon, fin keel, for the past 18 years in and around the SF Bay and I feel that I've done surprisingly well agoinst other C-34 and in PHRF against all types of racing boats. The one boat that consistingly beats me with their 180 PHRF is a local C-30, Goose, with an excellent skipper and crew. With the conditions just right, he has taken me boat for boat. So, don't be too hard on yourself if a well sailed C-30 beats you in most wind conditions. Stay with it.
DAVE- PHRF 147

[Ken Heyman]

Steve wrote:----" By that I mean we were waxed by several 30s while making transits" That does suprise me. It's one thing being whipped after handicapping but I would think the c34 is faster under most conditions due to our old standby of 1.3 times the square root of the water line. Maybe a 30 would be faster in light winds but with moderate to fresh breezes I would guess the 34s prevail. We had a all Catalina cruise this summer and generally the 30s lagged the 34s over the long haul. Anyway food for thought.

Ken

[Ron Hill]

Steve : Don't worry your self to death over boat speed!!
You don't know that C30 that passed you could have had 5 gal of fuel, 10 gal of water, one small anchor with no chain and a 2 bladed prop!  BTW, a tall rig C30 has a mast almost the same height as a standard C34. 
Just remember that when it comes time to turn in the 2 of YOU can stretch out in your Vberth, but he can't!!  A few thoughts!   

[Mark G]

I owned a C30 for five years and now a '91 wing keel C34 for the past two summers. Both ablative paint on the bottom, both 3-blade fixed props. I think I could point a little higher with the fin-keel 30. Under power on a transit, the 34 is faster - .75 knot on average, sometimes a little more than that and sometimes a little less (4-cylinder diesel). On a favorable reach, we easily bump up into the 7s on the GPS with the 34. In general-pleasure, all-points sailing, we're well into the 6s all the time on the 34. No way on the 30. Handicap racing is probably another story.

Handling is also much improved. I never fight the wheel on my 34. After two years, it still amazes me to take my hands off the wheel and track forever on Lake Michigan with only a finger-tip adjustment here and there. It could take a man and a boy to hold the course on the 30 when going to windward if slightly overpowered.

[Tom Glennon]

I sailed a Cat 30 Tall rig with fin keel for 15 years in he Boston Harbor/Buzzards Bay area while my sailing frind had a Cat34 standard, with wing keel.  I would always pull away, or catch up to him, to the point he finally traded it in for a 35.7 Benatoy!!
I  now sail my cat34 fin keel, and do find that she balances and handles much nicer than his wing version.  As for speed? I just enjoy the music!!  Happy aboard Slow Dance!

[salsailor]

I think one of the thing you can look into is the propeller. I have a wing keel C34 with a fethering prop, it makes a big difference. You can also looking into a folding prop.

Also you will need to see what the wind condition is, if the wind is light, it took more to power a much heavier C34 than C30.

[Steve Sayian]

I sincerely appreciate all the suggestions and advice!
One thing I'm doing this winter is getting rid of a bazillion layers of ablative bottom paint.  The bottom looks like the surface of the moon.
When I had my 30, I stripped it the first winter and put on two coats of Petit Trinidad and one coat every season after a hull sanding w/60 grit paper. The bottom always was as smooth as a baby's butt and I always got compliments in the boatyard for the appearance both at the beginning and end of the seasons.
So, Hi Ho, Hi Ho, it's off to sand we go.  That should give a bit more speed.  I recently looked into Soda Blasting and saw a couple power boats that had been done and frankly I'm quite nervous about the state of the gellcoat afterwards. It was all pitted and looked like it needed many coats of barrer coat or some filler.  I bought a wallboard screen and will start the project this weekend (will be a post-Thanksgiving weight reductoin program).

Another thing I'm doing is refitting the stuffing box nut with West Marine anti-drip teflon material.  I have to first seperate the shaft from the coupler (that is severely rusted to the shaft).  I plan to drill a line of 1/4 inch holes starting at the rear of the coupler up to the lock screw holes.  Once drilled, I'll 'persuade' it with a hammer and cold chisel in the hope of opening it up enough to free the shaft.  The shaft is bronze and is in good shape.  The cutlass bearing was just replaced this spring so no need to mess with that.  At some point in the future, I'll get a SS shaft.  I'll send pictures of the progress and any issues I hit.
(I has a rusted coupler/shaft on the 30 and had to cut the shaft and take the coupler to New England Propeller and they had to press the shaft out of the coupler (and I also needed a new shaft to the tune of $300.00).
Again, thanks for all the comments and I have gotten a lot of very good information from all the postings on the site.
Thanks!
Steve

[Stu Jackson]

Steve

Glad we could help.  I wrote this about stuffing boxes awhile ago:  http://www.c34.org/faq-pages/faq-stuffing-box.html  That was before the e-marine gore Tex material was made available.  That works, too.  I still have some of the West Marine green goop, so the $50 I paid for it 8 years ago is still worthwhile.

As noted in an earlier Guide to the C34 Website, and Technical resources, the FAQs at www.c34.org are about the boat, not how to use the website, and have a ton of information applicable to newer as well as older boats.  Have fun reading.

Good luck with getting the shaft and coupler loose.

[Ron Hill]

Steve : Here are a few suggestions.
 
First, get the Gore Tex packing as it's MUCH easier to work with and it's cheaper.

Take out the two set screws that dimple into the shaft and hold it in place.  Then between some liquid wrench in those holes, a torch to heat up the coupling and a few good thumps on the end of the shaft(don't bugger up the threads) - you might break the shaft loose.
 
You can always drill all of those other holes and use that cold chisel!!   

[Steve Sayian]

Ron,

Thanks for the tip on the Gore Tex packing!

As for the coupling, I've removed the screws and given it a bath in WD40, used a cylinder of propane to heat it and put a socket in between the coupler and the Xmission and tried the 'shock' treatment.  No Joy.  It's rusted beyond belief.  I think my only option now is the drill and the chisel.  Want to save the shaft if at all possible.

Thanks for the advice.

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

Steve

[Ted Pounds]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why do you need to pull the shaft to repack?  I never had to do that to repack.  I got a tool (looks like a little corkscrew) to remove the old packing and repacked with the shaft in place.