Perkins M30 and Balmar Alternator/Regulator System

[Mike Smith]

Has anyone fitted a Balmar Alternator/Regulator system on a Perkins M30 engine?  The existing M30 alternator belt size is 3/8" which limits me to an 80 Amp alternator.  To go any higher in amps, I will have to replace pulleys, etc on the engine - which I don't think I want to do.  Is the step up to 80 Amp alternator worth it?

Mike

[Randy and Mary Davison]

Can't comment on the Perkins engine but if you don't already have a "smart" 3 stage regulator like the Balmar, you will see a world of difference with even an 80 amp alternator.

The reason is that the alternator will put out high current through much more of the charge cycle of the batteries.  That's why the alternator needs to be heavy duty - to handle the heat associated with putting out over a kilowatt for a sustained time period.

I also worried about the difference between 80 and 110 amps but it turns out the batteries only want to accept about 80 amps anyway.  The stock belt on my Universal 35A is doing fine.

There are extensive threads on this subject in the archives.

[Mike Smith]

Thanks, Randy -

So you have an 80 amp Balmar with a three stage regulator?  What is your house bank AH capacity?

Mike

[Stu Jackson]

Mike

Randy's right, it's the external regulator that gets the juice out of the alternator.  You'll find an incredible improvement from a stock alternator, which is, after all, just an automobile logic charging system because of its regulator settings.

Ron Hill went to a 7/16 inch belt, without changing pulleys.

If you find it's still too much, use the amp manager feature on the regulator to reduce the output a bit, like Steve Lyle did in one of his two weblog reports.

[Mike Smith]

Stu -

Stock Perkins M30 belt is 7/16" - So you recommend going with the better regulator first, then upgrading the alternator if I'm not satisfied, right?  The boat is at the dock all week, so the house bank will be fully charged - we just overnight on weekends during the 11.5 month sailing season.

Mike

PS Where are Steve's Blogs located?

[Randy and Mary Davison]

Mike,

My house bank is about 450 AH with Trojan T105s plus a separate starting battery.  The house bank is charged as one battery and coupled to the starting battery with a Xantrex combiner.

There is an argument often made that only a high current alternator (as opposed to an automotive one) should be used with a 3 stage regulator because of the high heat generated.   Some on this board are successfully using automotive units at reduced output.

I bought a Balmar regulator and and Ample Power alternator to save some bucks. see http://www.amplepower.com/  After feeling how much heat comes off the alternator at full output, there is no way I would use an automotive one without reducing the output substantially.  In fact, we open the access door to quick heat the head on cold days when the batteries are low!

Mike, if you search this forum on a few terms like alternator, charging, Balmar etc, you'll find an incredible number of threads since many C34 owners have made this conversion.

[Mike Smith]

Oh, I've done all those searches - I know all about the incredible number of  threads on electrical system upgrades -over the years I've read all of them!  My very specific question is limited to Perkins M30 engines and Balmar alternators.  I'm concurrently emailing Balmar, Jack Rabbit Energy, and others  about which model to buy. I don't want to buy something expensive and then have to break out a hacksaw to make it fit. Break - I have just now been advised by Balmar that with a 7/16" belt I can go with a 110A alternator/w regulator for $720.  At this point I'm mostly interested in knowing if it will physically fit - hence my initial inquiry if anyone had done this specific installation. Looks like no one has.

Mike

[Stu Jackson]

Mike

I know you've done YOUR homework.  

You may be the only C34 with a Perkins.  IF you have a Motorola alternator, the Balmar's will fit with just the little shaving of the bracket IF your bracket is similar to the Universal alternator brackets.  I remember your picture episode awhile ago, but haven't looked it up to see.

Your other choice, given that outrageous $720 for the alternator and regulator, is to use Jim Moe's source for the alternator for a big $120, plus a regulator which should run around $250.  I bought Jim's recommended alternator and I also have a Max Charge ready to install, but have been busy with re-impregnating (not personally   ) our mainsail at Sail Care, doing boom related fixes and haven't gotten around to it.  The alternator is a direct match physically to the Motorola, it's a rebuilt inside a Delco case.

I also have the specific reference to Jim's alternator source, and Paul Elissio posted it awhile back.  Seems that Jim wrote the article, gave a draft to Paul who posted it on the board.  Jim finished it with a bit of help from me in editing, and sent it to be published in Mainsheet as a feature Tech article.  The folks at Mainsheet declined.  Don't get me started...

I just emailed it to you directly.  In fact, if the bozos, whoops, folks at Mainsheet won't do it, then I'll ask Mark to do it on Projects.

[Mike Smith]

You gotta be kidding me! Turn down an article on this very common upgrade?  I re-powered in 2000 with the Perkins M30. The Catalina 32's had this engine for a couple of years so I've been talking to some of them about the installation with a Balmar alternator.  I've picked up a Truecharge 40 and will be installing it this weekend.  I'll seek out Moe's article - I do remember reading it and I might reconsider the Balmar.

We are all still recovering from Ivan - it's been four months now.  One member can't get out of his slip and another couple are still living on their boat behind their house.  We now have walls again in our house and are slowly getting back to normal. But Fleet 8 will survive!

By the way, my son, Mike Jr. is graduating from San Francisco State May 7, and Jan and I are flying out to attend.  If the stars and planets are aligned properly, we might be able to get together and hoist a couple!

Fair Winds,
Mike

[Ron Hill]

Mike : There have been a "zillion" articles written on replacing/upgrading  a Motorola stock alternator.  They are on this site and in the Mainsheet.

Don't think it matters much if you have a 75v or a 110v alternator as long as it's a "high output alternator" and your engine HP can handle it.  The real key is an external multistage voltage regulator ( that's also in those articles).  If you have a 7/16" belt that should be sufficient.  The size of the battery bank really only dictates how long the "bulk" stage charges and how long you can go between changing. ( if you go from marina to marina every day you only need a 100 amp hr battery bank !)

You were the one that selected a Perkins engine so you'll have to solve the alternator geometry problem by yourself.  All of us (C34s)have a Universal.  You might want to ask the C32's your question.

Hope that you followed the instructions that I wrote about on starting your engine after a long "winter" lay up.  It's hard on an engine if you don't "prelube" the moving parts before you actually start it.    

[Mike Vaccaro]

Mike,

Couple of editorial thoughts (mostly heresy, I might add!):

1.  A lot of us spend a considerable amount of time, money and effort trying to turn our auxiliary engines into efficient generators.  They're not.  Unless the boat is equipped with a dedicated generator or a power system similar to a "SEAPOWER" or other type of super-large engine driven alternator, the most efficient system will, as a rule of thumb, only top the battery bank to 90% capacity unless you're motoring for extended periods of time (5 hours or so).  Our 1988 boat was designed, engineered and built before the days when a typical cruising sailboat was expected to have the power generating capacity of a typical disel/electric submarine...

2.  You'll get more bang for the buck by properly sizing a battery bank--i.e., put the dollars into storage capacity vs. charging equipment.  Our 440 amp hour battery bank lasts for the weekend in "condo" mode (i.e., frivolous use), but I've gone two weeks between charge cycles in "sailing" mode with less than 50% discharge.

3.  Power monitoring instruments are the key to managing electrical systems.  A Link 10/20 or similar system is outstanding for monitoring the life and status of a battery bank and DC systems.  A similar AC instrument is invaluable for monitoring shore-power or on-board AC systems, if installed.

4.  Increasing alternator output will, as a rule of thumb, increase charging efficiency by 15-20% for a nominal 440 AH bank that has been 50% discharged.  Efficiency DECREASES for less bank discharge.  This would equate to roughly 20 minutes of less engine run time for a big alternator to reach the 90% charge level.

5.  A 3- or 4- stage "smart" regulator won't do much to decrease the time required to recharge batteries compared to a stock 14.4v 2-stage regulator.  It is, however, matched to the needs of the batteries, which will maximize battery life; but if your boat spends most of it's life at the dock with a 120v umbilical attached to a good charger, that point is fairly moot for a lead acid, deep cell battery that has it's water level properly maintained.  

For great background reading, check out two articles by Don Casey on the Sailnet website.  The first is "Alternators-How Big is Big Enough?" at http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=caseyd0082, and the second is "Understanding the Three-Stage Regulator" at http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=casey0081.

As you are well aware, "SEAPOWER" type systems (typically an auxiliary 5KW alternator with a power control system that provides 120v AC power) ARE NOT ideal when pared with a small engine such as ours, and even though our boat is equipped with one of these units, I can't advocate their use on the Catalina 34/36.  

So, what does this mean?  If I had 750 dollars to spend (and HAD to spend it on the electrical system!), I'd rather spend it on proper wiring (i.e., large, high-capacity wires with good connectors and proper fuses for system protection), a good monitoring system and/or bigger or more batteries.  In reality, I'd ensure that I've got a good, flat properly sized head sail for beating that will allow me to work off a lee shore WITHOUT benefit of the engine or good ground tackle to avoid ending up aground if I can't!  Sometimes in a effort to spin the perfect margarita or the admiral's hair dryer we get our priorities a bit jumbled...

Now, on the otherhand, it IS the 21st Century!

Cheers,

Vac

[Mike Smith]

Thanks, Vac!

I couldn't agree more!

Mike

[jentine]

Before you waste a lot of money installing an alternator that has a high price (some equate price with quality), take a look at this site.  I installed one of his alternators with no muss, no fuss.  

http://www.thefloridakeys.com/batteryshack/

[Stu Jackson]

Mike S

ENERGY BUDGETS, BATTERY USE & RECHARGING DEAD BATTERIES

Mike V's story was very well put.  Was that heresy or hearsay?  I don't know.

But follow this logic:  Once you've got a good large house bank, and you've done all the wiring upgrades, and you've checked all your connections and you've got the monitoring system and you regularly check your distilled water levels, and you have a handle on everything, including your energy budget, and you either frivolously use or be miserly with your energy usage, what do you do next?

You learn about the steadily diminishing law of returns of how your engine driven alternator can replenish your batteries, regardless of whether it puts out 30 amps from the stock regulator, or 55 to 80 amps from a high powered new alternator with an external regulator.

We learned that this summer on our cruise (knew it already but saw it in action for the first time   ).

Page 46, Figure 2-13 of Calder's covers it well.  Start out with full house bank, in our case 315 amp hours, from charging at our friend's dock.  Spent two hours sailing, 20 nanoseconds motoring to our first anchorage.  Stayed there two nights, less than three days.  315 less say 60 times 3 = 180 = 135 ah left. (Using fridge and lights "frivolously").  Motored 6 hours the next day.  Input equals say 30 amps per hour, put back in 150.  150 + 135 = 285.  (We get a good 30 amps input from our stock alternator because we still have our AutoMac.)  Anchored out for three nights, turned off the fridge at night.  285 left less (3 x 30) = 195 left.  Motored four hours = 30 x 4 = 120 + 195 = back to 315.  On the hook for two more nights frivolously = 315 less 120 = 195.  Sailed for a day, little motoring.  195 - 60 = 135.

This could go on and on until we plugged in again, and without motoring for long periods of time, would steadily diminish the amount left in the house bank unless we turned off the fridge.

Conclusion, unless we plugged in or motored for a long time, which we CAN do on the Delta here, less and less is left in the house bank.  It's a fairly common occurrence, as long as you either do the math or have a Link monitor.

But we KNEW that going in and, so, could adjust for it.  If one wants to be totally self-sufficient, then solar (which we have but I didn't include above since it's just a small panel to offset the weekly discharge of the wet cell battery banks we have), or wind or both HAVE to be added, or a separate generator, or, as Captain. Ron says, "You just pull in and ask directions, Kitty" and sneak a little charge in while you're waiting!  

The other conclusion is what we're all learning, and I say it again:  there is simply no right way to do things electrically on our boats.  It all depends on how you want to or need use your boat.  Marina hopping, as mentioned above, will let you get away with a smaller house bank, although I still personally believe that a minimum of 400 ah in a house bank for those with refrigeration is the bare minimum to permit, as Mike V said, a frivolous weekend away with NO concerns about killing your batteries.  A larger bank also extends the life of your bank because you draw down a smaller percentage of the total capacity.

We have written, as all the Mikes and others of you know, lots about this subject.  And, it's just great that so many have read it - most, if not all of it!  

Please also note that Jim's very happy with his batteryshack alternator.  They come with BOTH internal and external regulation.  Your boat, your choice.  (Now, where have we heard that before?  

Unfortunately, some of the direct links between subjects on electrical systems that I put into the earlier electrical system posts didn't transfer over from Infopop to this board, so it makes it hard to use some of the cross references that I previously posted on electrical systems.  Sorry about that, but the information is all still there, and based on this topic, looks like more's comin' our way.  Not a bad subject, and fun to discuss.

RECHARGING DEAD BATTERIES

Mike S, while I was looking for that steadily diminishing law of returns in Calder, I came across the answer to your other question about recharging dead batteries.  I knew I'd seen it somewhere.

Page 47, second edition.  "Is There Life After Death?"

Recommends equalizing the batteries on first charge.  With your new Statpower True Charge Xantrex (or whatever they're calling them these days) 40, you should have an equalization setting.  I recommend you do that to bring your batteries back.  There's a whole page on the subject.  I've posted a reference link on your earlier post to get here.

[Stu Jackson]

Mike

I just printed out and reread this thread.  Mike V's and Randy's posts are  chock full of VERY good info, especially when reread a few times.

I also noticed I hadn't answered your earlier questions.

1.  I recommend going to a COMBINATION of higher output alternator WITH a separate external regulator AT THE SAME TIME.  Don't put a new regulator on an old alternator.  The new alternator and new regulator are the equipment I have cleverly hidden in my basement and waiting to be installed.  You should do them both at the same time.  (I also have a LINK 2000 that I bought when I got our Heart 1500 Inverter/charger, but haven't yet installed either.  Shame on me!   )

However (here's the BUT) (and share this with Jan ) you said you keep plugged in all the time and just weekend out.  Therefore, your batteries are always fully charged when you leave the dock, and you have a substantial house bank.  SO, why bother swapping out the alternator AT ALL?  

Your engine is only a few years old, so is the alternator.  If you follow my steadily diminishing story above, you're just not going to be out that long to even NEED the alternator to put more into the house bank, if you do the energy used math.  I hate to delete a project from your "to do" list, but unless you're soon going to be changing your sailing habits, I suggest that you seriously consider simply leaving it alone.  If you plan to stay out longer, do the $$$ math on a big solar panel, which could keep up with your fridge load.  I forget if you have AC.  In that case a generator makes sense for being on the hook.  $720 could go a long way for either solar or a small Honda generator, which Ron and others have mentioned a number of times.  

Many folks are swapping out their OLD alternators - mine is almost 20 years old!!! - with newer higher outputs with external regulators because the old alternators are so old, need replacement anyway, so why not do it "right" and get the bang for the bucks?  I wouldn't put in an old style automotive regulator setup now that I know so much about keeping batteries healthy with the three stage regulators, and saving engine running time.   But that's the way we like to use our boat, off shorepower and on the hook.  

Your new Truecharge 40 will also keep your batteries healthy.  As it is now, you can safely stay out three nights and four days without running your engine, if you are frugal with your use.  Don't know if in the Floria heat you can turn your fridge off at night, but any insulation or heat blankets inside should help.

So, if you use 30 ah per day with the fridge off, four days is 30 X 4 = 120 ah, out of your 400 ah house bank is nowhere near the 50% (200 ah).  Mike V's post said there's the 15 - 20% improvement in an external regulator vs your stock.  A little engine running time wouldn't hurt and could be done easily.  So if you need to run the fridge 24/7, you only get 3 days before you have to run your engine (60 ah per day x 3 days = 180 ah out).  That's still more than a weekend, right?  If you get 30 amps out of your stock regulator alternator combination, motor around for an hour or two and you'll get another day out of your system and keep near the battery depletion "limit."  Do one night in one anchorage, motor to the next and bingo.  That gives you Friday night to Sunday coming home.  Make sense?  Anyway, you now have some options to consider.  Always fun spending someone else's $$$.  

2.  Steve's weblog can be found at:
http://www.c34.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=663&highlight=first+year

I couldn't find the second one.  I think it had more on electrical than the first one.  Seems that the switchover from Infopop also has another issue, wherein if people don't resign up, see the IMPORTANT Photo posting thread, the search engine can't find stuff.  Oh well...

Keep trying searches on steve lyle.  I found that its spelling been done a lot of different ways: stevelyle, SteveLyle (no spaces between), sometimes with caps, sometimes not.  Also try the +steve+lyle on the search, cap, no caps, etc.  These variations show up on the searches, sometimes with 3 pages to peruse, sometimes 15.  Yikes!!! Kyle Ewing also did a very good blog.

3.  May 7, is on my calendar.  Let's email and keep in touch.