Slow - Weak cranking

[KWKloeber]

It's odd but this site seems more active. I signed up for C30 sites incl a Facebook group but
No reply.  And the M25 is common to high boats

007

The groups.io site link that Stu posted is the official IC30A forum, any others are knock-offs and can't hold a candle (!!!) to the collective knowledge (1600 members) on there. :-) 

I don't recall seeing a hard starting post on there very recently, as I typically am one who replies to those.  Are you registered on that forum? 

Yes the engines are the same but (typically) the ENGINE isn't hard starting - it's what makes the engine start (electrical system) that causes hard starting.  There a some differences between panels, etc, so it's always wise to circle over to the ICC30A forum in addition to posting here.

Just for precision, both the ICC30A forum and techwiki are on groups.io - there were some issues with putting a techwiki on google groups (such as I had previously set up for C355) and so Max went with io groups.  I don't know who started the google group, or when, or anything about if.

(Unfortunately I can't develop any interest in members to put much on the IC30A wiki, but I remain hopeful.)

[Joyride]

There are some pretty detailed threads on here about the wiring upgrades.  You might get lucky and find the culprit but if your boat is mid 80s and the panel has already been modified, it's likely you'll have several issues. You might find the switch is the culprit now, but next season it'll be the ground or a corroded connection.  I built a new wiring harness following the recommendations on here this Spring and I love having the peace of mind that when I push the button it's gonna start.  Mine is a 91 and when I took apart the harness I found poorly connected butt connectors on both sides (Engine and Panel) that had been neatly wrapped and organized future problems.  If you have the time to do it I recommend taking the time to figure it out. 

[mainesail]

Another question, I will upgrade all battery cables  to #2 AWG from #4.
Seems like pre made marine cables are available on Amazon for half the cost (or less) of West Marine
Anything to be wary of here?     

Be very wary of buying anything marine related off Amazon. Amazon is loaded with counterfeit products and in regards to battery cable copper plated aluminum (a horrible scam) is running rampant on Amazon. Use Genuinedealz.com to make your cables. They will custom make them to your exact length and lug ID dimensions so you actually get a professional install without extra wire where you don't need it. It is the best deal on the net and you get legitimate UL1426 marine grade tinned wire, quality sealed end tin plated copper battery lugs and adhesive lined heat shrink. If you ever plan to fuse the bank (to be ABYC compliant for insurance, & why Catalina built all later boats, even with the same/similar engines with 1/0 to 2/0 wire) you may want to up your wire gauge to 1/0 or 2/0. Also if you ever plan to add an inverter/charger or larger inverter 2 AWG may likely still be too small.

We've seen numerous owners redo battery cabling twice because they tried to save money on the per foot price of the wire and fail to consider potential future upgrades such as alternators, chargers, windlass, thrusters inverters and inverter/chargers. One of my guys did a Victron 2kW inverter/charger install in September where the owner had just re-done all the battery wire with 1 AWG. He was really, really bummed to learn much of it had to be re-done to accommodate the new Victron and for the house bank and inverter fuse to be compliant.

The difference in price between 2 AWG and 2/0 on the whole project is minimal. Let's assume you need 40' of battery wire, which is a lot, the total difference would be about $125.00 between 2/0 and 2 AWG.

You can also make your own:
https://marinehowto.com/making-your-own-battery-cables/

Another place you may want to consider is Boat Electrical Systems which is loaded with industry pro's as well as DIY's there are over 16,000 members.
Boat Electrical Systems Group




.

[KWKloeber]

Somebody switched your key switch and start locations and also changed what was an OEM the start button to a pull out.  It's not a bad idea to have moved the key switch because many of us have noted that the key tends to get bent from shoes and cockpit cushions at the forward slot location.  Most of us have push buttons for both start and glow plug.  See photo.

Stu

007 has an OEM, mid-80s, C30 panel.
The key is in its original location, as is the preheat switch.

On that panel, cranking was via the key (S position,) not PB switch.

Over the years (maybe on her/his) the key start was abandoned in favor of a PB.  I don't know exactly why but Seaward documents indicate that buttoning was changed in response to owner complaints about what they needed to push and with how many fingers.  Go figure! 

On 007 someone's figured the pull start was easier (or the key switch failed?)

That pull start reminds me of my grandfather's McCormick Farmall tractor that I used to drive before I could even reach the brake/clutch!!  Hey, we have "tractor" engines, don't we?

-k

[Catalina007]

Somebody switched your key switch and start locations and also changed what was an OEM the start button to a pull out.  It's not a bad idea to have moved the key switch because many of us have noted that the key tends to get bent from shoes and cockpit cushions at the forward slot location.  Most of us have push buttons for both start and glow plug.  See photo.

Stu

007 has an OEM, mid-80s, C30 panel.
The key is in its original location, as is the preheat switch.

On that panel, cranking was via the key (S position,) not PB switch.

Over the years (maybe on her/his) the key start was abandoned in favor of a PB.  I don't know exactly why but Seaward documents indicate that buttoning was changed in response to owner complaints about what they needed to push and with how many fingers.  Go figure! 

On 007 someone's figured the pull start was easier (or the key switch failed?)

That pull start reminds me of my grandfather's McCormick Farmall tractor that I used to drive before I could even reach the brake/clutch!!  Hey, we have "tractor" engines, don't we?

-k

Wondering if I should just go ahead and replace the starter pull switch back to a PB and eliminate one more possible slow crank cause 

[KWKloeber]

There's many things that can contribute to hard starting or non starts. The problem with nilly willy changing parts is one never knows if they've found the root cause, or if there's contributing causes — especially if the condition is intermittent.

How comfortable/experienced are you at troubleshooting?  I don't mean just handling a voltmeter, but drilling down and narrowing down the suspects? 

[Catalina007]

I am in the process of identifying all cables and where they come and go and start building a diagram of what I have
I have found undersized (4 + 6) battery cables, some with terminal corrosion, they will all be changed to #2 AWG
The + cable from the starter and the ground from the engine block go under the ladder, along the aft bunk, behind the house bank and up to the
upper selector switch. Then the positive comes back down to a lower selector switch and then the  starting battery below the aft bunk.  Another +
cable runs back towards the cockpit panel.
The engine ground runs to the house bank negative, and then back down to the starting battery negative

This seems very circuitous route, no?

The positive coming down from the upper selector switch to the lower selector switch, then to the + starter battery seems nuts. The lower selector  switch only disconnects the positive lead to the starter battery to engage the cockpit panel and switch

So the house bank + it seems set on BOTH runs to the starter on the engine AND the starting battery   

Is there a free program somewhere to write down an electrical diagram?  The next few days will be pulling on cables  and identifying / labeling them
as a start.  I thought I could just pull them out and  duplicate them with new #2 and reinstall, but seems some redesign with a pro might be in order in my opinion.     


 

           
 

[Stu Jackson]

.......................................

Is there a free program somewhere to write down an electrical diagram?  The next few days will be pulling on cables  and identifying / labeling them
as a start.  I thought I could just pull them out and  duplicate them with new #2 and reinstall, but seems some redesign with a pro might be in order in my opinion.     
     

Drawing Wiring Diagrams  https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4821.msg29037.html#msg29037

Most of us have concluded that drawing first in pencil & paper is best, then decide which program you want to use.  There undoubtedly are more than the ones in that link by now.

As a reminder, there are basic wiring diagrams in the Electrical Systems 101 Topic that include both the single 1-2-B switches as well as two and three switch designs.

[Ron Hill]

Cat007 : I have always found that the primary cause of weak cranking is - cable & connections, cable & connections, cable connections!!!!

Don't be enamored by the "small" size of #4 wire.  It's the connection!! - #4 wire (marine grade) is more than adequate to start your small 23HP engine. 

A thought

[KWKloeber]

Just to bring the C30 website/forum/info full circle:

I confirmed there is NO current C30 Google Group, renegade or otherwise.  The groups.io is THE official IC30A forum.

There is a FB group but I've never visited it.

Max Munger will be unveiling a new IC30A website design - I don't know the changes or the schedule, I wasn't made privy to the change.

The only C30 techwiki is on the Groups.io forum, and it's VERY sparse - so any C30-ers listening please contribute to it. PM me if you want info.

[KWKloeber]

007

they will all be changed to #2 AWG. 

How did you (basis of) decide on #2?

Understand that the engine harness and panel and starter solenoid are also (can be) contributing factors to hard starting.) 
I've done several harnesses for CTYs and others and if there's any info you need just reach out (PM or email.)
There's also an article of two on the IC30A wiki about hard starting that might provide some info you don't have.

Good luck!

[Catalina007]

007

they will all be changed to #2 AWG. 

How did you (basis of) decide on #2?

Understand that the engine harness and panel and starter solenoid are also (can be) contributing factors to hard starting.) 
I've done several harnesses for CTYs and others and if there's any info you need just reach out (PM or email.)
There's also an article of two on the IC30A wiki about hard starting that might provide some info you don't have.

Good luck!

The previous owner installed the Hearse glow plug solenoid
It appears to be the original harness , but I didnt find any trailer plug junctions
Some battery cables have corroded terminals and lugs. One of the lugs just  fell off of a house battery when the battery was being removed.
The battery cables have to be changed anyway. I thought no point reinstalling 4 + 6 size
The positive cable from the lower selector switch to the positive start battery terminal was about 8 feet long. It only needs to be about 1 foot.
The ground wire looks awful. And I need to grind and clean up the block connection. 

Thanks for the offer. I tried to get into Tech Notes  and it asked for a password which I gave, then wouldn't let me in.
       
All of the  fuel lines and filters are now changed including the small injector return lines. Some were in pretty rough shape. Snaking them under the floor, etc. That was one project done while I continue to take breaks assessing the wiring. There are lots of dead headed wires and connections on various battery terminals I need to chase down. One of the wires on the starting battery was the bilge pump, dont know yet the other 3.   Bilge pump needs rewire to the house bank.

low plug wiring looks original and horrendous. Lots of corrosion at the plugs which look  original.   Next will be all raw and coolant water lines. Upgrading to 3 inch HeatEx.

[KWKloeber]

@007

You need to be an IC34A member to access TechNotes.

Could the extra battery have been in the engine compartment?  Or maybe the cable was sized for that option.
Consider using it for an emergency reserve, not starting.

Put the negative cable on the outside starter bolt NOT back on the bell housing.

Cross post when you get the hose size and I'll add it to the techwiki someplace. I wish we had a complete list of hose sizes and lengths (30 and 34).


-k

[Ron Hill]

Cat007 :  I would have replaced the old bat.- eng. wiring with the same size marine grade #4 wire.  As I recall the C30 battery compartment distance to the engine is much closer than in a C34.
 
If you want a great ground - run a second ground wire from the batteries direct to the Alternator!!

A thought