Slow - Weak cranking

[Catalina007]

1986 - M25

I've been reading the trouble shooting and going thru the process, but meanwhile was looking for clarification on the starter switch itself.



We have a slow cranking issue, sometimes will not crank at all.
New and charged starting battery
We're told one problem might be the starter switch on the panel
It is a momentary pull switch.
I don't know if it means anything but, there are 12 volts going to the switch line side. When I pull the switch to start and have  a meter on the terminal on the other side of the switch, it seems to fluctuate as it tries to crank but only gets as high as about 7 volts. Is that normal? Could it be an internal switch corrosion issue that needs replacement?   I see push button switches on CD website but not a pull switch like we have.

The pull switch is on the far right and the glow plug button on its left

Even if  I dont use the glow plugs (I always do), shouldnt I always  have normal fast cranking?   
   
Thanks

[Stu Jackson]

Hi,

Somebody switched your key switch and start locations and also changed what was an OEM the start button to a pull out.  It's not a bad idea to have moved the key switch because many of us have noted that the key tends to get bent from shoes and cockpit cushions at the forward slot location.  Most of us have push buttons for both start and glow plug.  See photo.

Voltage drop is always expected when starting.

Most times it's not the button, but rather all the other culprits:  the fuse and holder to the starter solenoid, engine ground (cleanup required) or wiring issue somewhere.

[Catalina007]

ok thanks.  yes ive never seen a pull start switch but it seems to work. I guess thats what he had in his tool box

will dig into the harness tomorrow!
 

[Catalina007]

Another question, I will upgrade all battery cables  to #2 AWG from #4.
Seems like pre made marine cables are available on Amazon for half the cost (or less) of West Marine
Anything to be wary of here?     

[scgunner]

I've never seen a control panel like yours, maybe you've got a very early production boat. What's your hull number?

You can't go wrong switching to bigger cables, less resistance. Your starter is cranking slowly because it's not getting the full 12v from that fully charged battery. Somewhere between the battery and the starter volts are being lost. As Stu said a thorough check of the electrical system making sure you've got clean, solid grounds would be in order before anything else.

[Stu Jackson]

Another question, I will upgrade all battery cables  to #2 AWG from #4.
Seems like pre made marine cables are available on Amazon for half the cost (or less) of West Marine
Anything to be wary of here?     

Wary of?  Yes, West Marine prices!!!  I simply don't know how to emphasize any more than the entire internet does about WM pricing.  WM's allure is the availability of many items, not the cost.  I was around when WM just got started, and  I used to live less than 20 miles away from their startup garage!    They were simply great for boaters back then.  But this isn't about WM, it's about your question.

From Smitty, a C310 owner, very knowledgeable, who bought his boat, wintered over one year in Boston Harbor, and sailed to the Caribbean.  He knows his stuff.  He wrote, about wire:

For bus bars, anl fuses and holder vtewarehouse.com and genuinedeals.com for wire and lugs were the cheapest prices I found.

Maine Sail added:

VTE has some good deals but I do prefer the Blue Sea ANL holders to the VTE though the VTE works. If buying the VTE ANL's I MUCH prefer the "High Amp" version. I am not a fan of the cover on the low amp ANL version.

Also the ANL's VTE sells are not ignition protection rated. Sometimes the best deal is not the best product for the job. You can find ANL's on-line as low as $3.00 but they may not have the same trip delay curves as the ones from Blue Sea and they are not IP rated. Many of the ANL's sold act like an ANN fuse, or really are an ANN fuse but they simply slap an ANL label on them. The ANN's have a shorter trip delay curve and do not work as well for motor loads like a starter.... The VTE fuses are okay to keep as emergency spares but I would much rather use the Blue Sea ANL's..

^^^quotes are from this post, "boat wire"  https://forums.sailboatowners.com/threads/boat-wire.149812/?highlight=genuinedeals

[scgunner]

With West Marine you're paying for convenience and unfortunately, like a lot of big retail outlets, they stock a lot of Chinese product, which I wouldn't recommend for road use let alone any marine application.

[Catalina007]

Another question, I will upgrade all battery cables  to #2 AWG from #4.
Seems like pre made marine cables are available on Amazon for half the cost (or less) of West Marine
Anything to be wary of here?     

Wary of?  Yes, West Marine prices!!!  I simply don't know how to emphasize any more than the entire internet does about WM pricing.  WM's allure is the availability of many items, not the cost.  I was around when WM just got started, and  I used to live less than 20 miles away from their startup garage!    They were simply great for boaters back then.  But this isn't about WM, it's about your question.

From Smitty, a C310 owner, very knowledgeable, who bought his boat, wintered over one year in Boston Harbor, and sailed to the Caribbean.  He knows his stuff.  He wrote, about wire:

For bus bars, anl fuses and holder vtewarehouse.com and genuinedeals.com for wire and lugs were the cheapest prices I found.

Maine Sail added:

VTE has some good deals but I do prefer the Blue Sea ANL holders to the VTE though the VTE works. If buying the VTE ANL's I MUCH prefer the "High Amp" version. I am not a fan of the cover on the low amp ANL version.

Also the ANL's VTE sells are not ignition protection rated. Sometimes the best deal is not the best product for the job. You can find ANL's on-line as low as $3.00 but they may not have the same trip delay curves as the ones from Blue Sea and they are not IP rated. Many of the ANL's sold act like an ANN fuse, or really are an ANN fuse but they simply slap an ANL label on them. The ANN's have a shorter trip delay curve and do not work as well for motor loads like a starter.... The VTE fuses are okay to keep as emergency spares but I would much rather use the Blue Sea ANL's..

^^^quotes are from this post, "boat wire"  https://forums.sailboatowners.com/threads/boat-wire.149812/?highlight=genuinedeals

I should have mentioned it's a 1986 Catalina 30 Tall Rig  not a 34

[scgunner]

The same mechanical issues will still apply. Have you gotten any suggestions from the C30 site?

[Catalina007]

It's odd but this site seems more active. I signed up for C30 sites incl a Facebook group but
No reply.  And the M25 is common to high boats

[Stu Jackson]

It's odd but this site seems more active. I signed up for C30 sites incl a Facebook group but
No reply.  And the M25 is common to high boats

Have you tried this?

https://groups.io/g/Catalina30

One of the downsides to the C30 group efforts at developing a website is that they have too many of them.

We have been successful at keeping everything related to our boats right here on this website, albeit with three basic forms of information retention:  this forum, the tech wiki and the tech notes.

The C30 group started out with their own website, but eventually it withered.  More recently, some have started a new Google Group along with their own tech wiki (much copied from our own categories) to retain recurring & repetitive questions, since any internet "groups" are pretty poor at being searchable.  There seem to be too many place to look for information about that single boat, although they have a long and distinguished history of sharing information, too.

[scgunner]

Stu,

This is IMHO one of the best message boards on the web, that goes for boats, cars, sports, or whatever. Kudos to you and the guys who make it work. Maybe that's why we get C30 guys over here, the C30 is a wonderful boat and has a lot in common with the C34. I'm actually a little surprised we don't see C36 guys over here as well since like the C30 we also have a lot in common with the C36.

[Stu Jackson]

Stu,

This is IMHO one of the best message boards on the web, that goes for boats, cars, sports, or whatever. Kudos to you and the guys who make it work. Maybe that's why we get C30 guys over here, the C30 is a wonderful boat and has a lot in common with the C34. I'm actually a little surprised we don't see C36 guys over here as well since like the C30 we also have a lot in common with the C36.

Kevin,

Thanks for the kind thoughts.  However, the "guys who make it work" are really all of you who visit, question and contribute.  Thanks to all of you from all of us. 

While there may be a tad of C30 skippers visiting, I have been active on many other boating forums and have linked many folks to the information we have gathered here, so it is more than just those who have similar boats.  Most boats in our size range, regardless of builder, have much in common.  In addition, electrical systems are pretty much consistent across the board.  The Universal engines appeared in O'Days and Ericsons, among others.

The C36 Association has its own excellent website and forum.  I had the great pleasure of meeting their new Commodore Les Troyer back in 2017 and we've become good friends, and have cruised together.  There are quite a number of "C34 vs. C36" threads here, with each of us saying nice things about the other.  As it should be.

[Catalina007]

It's odd but this site seems more active. I signed up for C30 sites incl a Facebook group but
No reply.  And the M25 is common to high boats

Also- trying to sort out the wiring rats nest. For instance bilge pump is wired to the starting battery. But today's issue is: The starter is connected to the 1. starting battery ( which has a lower Guest switch under the ladder) and also 2.  the house bank which also has an upper  Guest selector switch on the panel. I assume the prior owner rigged this, but does it sound familiar?     
I guess the prior owner wanted to use the house bank if the starter battery was dead, but that can be done with the upper selector switch on 'Both' .
Probably going to rip all the original wires out and upgrade wire size to #2 anyway. Whole thing seems odd

[Stu Jackson]

Also- trying to sort out the wiring rats nest. For instance bilge pump is wired to the starting battery. But today's issue is: The starter is connected to the 1. starting battery ( which has a lower Guest switch under the ladder) and also 2.  the house bank which also has an upper  Guest selector switch on the panel. I assume the prior owner rigged this, but does it sound familiar?     
I guess the prior owner wanted to use the house bank if the starter battery was dead, but that can be done with the upper selector switch on 'Both' .
Probably going to rip all the original wires out and upgrade wire size to #2 anyway. Whole thing seems odd

Maybe not so odd.  There are a few different ways to do battery bank switching.  They are covered completely in Electrical Systems 101, specifically these:

OEM 1-2-B Switch Wiring History  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.msg30101.html#msg30101

1-2-B Considerations (New 2020 - Rodd finally got around to diagramming what I had done in the above link in 2009 :) )
https://marinehowto.com/1-2-both-battery-switch-considerations/

Basic Battery Wiring Diagrams  This is a very good basic primer for boat system wiring: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6604.0.html

This is another very good basic primer for boat system wiring:   The 1-2-B Switch by Maine Sail (brings together a lot of what this subject is all about)
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=137615

This is a newer primer for boat system wiring design with a thorough digram:   Building a Good Foundation (October 2016)
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/building-the-dc-electrical-foundation.181929/#post-1332240

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It would be useful for you to develop a wiring diagram of what you have before you rip it all out.  Why?  Because it may not be incorrect at all; it my well be one that is presented in the options of wiring diagrams presented in those links (which include two switch options).  Or, it could be a complete SNAFU.

Point being that without a wiring diagram, no one can really help you out.  Pictures of wires, and generally vague written descriptions, are useless in helping with wiring issues.

Good luck, hope you find information that helps you on your boat.