1987 MK 1 Electrical System Upgrade - Feedback Requested

[KWKloeber]

If the various amperage capacity models within the ProNautic line are properly/conservatively designed with temperature-controlled fans and thermal limiting, then picking a size should only impact how rapidly they can charge a large battery bank, not how many years the charger will last before failure (other than perhaps a slight difference in fan life if a smaller unit runs its fan for more hours). I realize those assumptions for proper design are all "IFs'", but I would not automatically assume that a more expensive 60a unit will last any longer than the 40a unit. Perhaps one could put that direct question to ProMariner support (though they may not actually know without asking their design team).

I put it to a ProMariner insider.  Basically, if the total bank is at 465 AH (plus starting) would one expect a 50a charger to last longer than a 40a charger, because the 40a is working harder and longer?   

The reply was (paraphrased) 'Theoretically yes, it's like a 6 cyl vs an 8 cyl pulling your 5,000 lb boat, the tranny in the 6 cyl will wear more/faster.  The larger you can afford in $ and space, the longer it should last.'   

I guess everything is "within reason" of course -- whether an extra 10 amps 40 makes that much difference, only time would tell, using N = much greater than 1.0 unit.   

I think the key is "properly designed" and whether the rule-of-thumb ends up to be 9%, 10%, or 11% of AHs.  It may not make that much difference.

I will say that my ProSport 20+ had failed with a combined approx 220 ah for some time and 330 ah for a while.  (I lived and learned the hard way (but and didn't even get the T shirt!))   

k

[Noah]

Ken--try this link to get yourself a proper T-shirt made!
http://www.weekendrproducts.com/

[KWKloeber]

Ken--try this link to get yourself a proper T-shirt made!
http://www.weekendrproducts.com/

Do they carry the "My ProSport 20+ deep-sixed, and all I got from Davey Jones was this lousy Tee shirt" model?

k

[Noah]

You're going to need an XXXL for that!!!

[Jon W]

I am looking at the Blue Sea custom panels and see there is a digital DC Multimeter you can add to the panel. Am I thinking correctly that adding the Blue Sea digital DC Multimeter to the panel and having the SmartGauge Battery Monitor would be redundant? The description isn't very clear, but it appears the Blue Sea digital DC Multimeter provides a readout of volts and A's, not sure if it monitors one battery or two batteries and 1 circuit current. I'll will call them and ask, but thought I'd ask some owners first.

Anyone have experience with PanelTronics AC/DC panels or comments vs Blue Sea panels?

Thanks for the help.   Jon W.

[Stu Jackson]

Jon, they are both very good panels.

The Electrical 101 topic has a discussion of how ammeters work.  So, the answer to your question is, partially, "How is the digital ammeter wired?"  Generally, panel ammeters only measure the amperage in the panel, i.e., the loads you are using on your DC system, only what your panel is using.  They rarely measure total charging amperage, which can only be done at the main negative of the battery bank itself.   Why?  Because an ammeter requires the use of a shunt, and the shunt can only measure the "juice" that is running through it, it has to be in series with the load.  And shunts are sized to range of the amperage to be measured.  So a panel ammeter will have a range of maybe 0 to 30 or 50.  But if your charger is a 60 amp charger, it would blow the ammeter, it needs a larger shunt and the shunt has to be at the bank to measure BOTH in & out.

This brings up the interesting features and advantages and disadvantages of the Smart Gauge compared to a Coulomb counter (i.e., Victron, Link, etc.) battery monitor.

They each do different things.

The Smart Gauge has the advantage of set-it-and-forget-it to tell you the SOC of the bank.  It will NOT tell you the amount of amps coming or going.

As I noted in the Battery Acceptance thread  (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4787.0.html): 

What goes OUT of your house bank becomes easy to learn from the Energy Budget previously discussed and posted. It's what goes back IN that most people are missing, and relates to the state of charge of your house bank in a very direct manner.

The only instrument that will actually show you the actual amount of amps going back IN is a Coulomb counter.  The SG doesn't do that.  From Maine Sail's SG writeup (also in the Electrical 101 topic:  The Smart Gauge is plain & simple, it has no ammeter and only shows battery SOC for the house bank and voltage for an AUX bank.

The cc requires a tad more knowledge of battery systems and programming.  While it has disadvantages, noted in Maine Sail's writeup of the SG, it has the BIG advantages of showing you what's comin' & goin' and isn't that hard to program or reset.  You learn how to work the instruments or don't bother installing them.  Too many people didn't understand or bother to learn how the work.

So, they're not really redundant, they do two different things, depending on how you want to run and manage your system.

Neither are comparable to the panel ammeter.

The panel meters (usually) don't do what either the SG or cc meters do.

Follow the wires.   

[Jon W]

Thanks Stu. The Blue Sea custom panel website has very little information about the DC multimeter and no wiring diagrams. It does reference compatibility with a programmable shunt, but again no details. I'll call or Email them next week.  Jon W

[Stu Jackson]

Jon, BS makes a System Monitor:  https://www.bluesea.com/products/1801/Vessel_Systems_Monitor_VSM_422

From Maine Sail's and others' inputs, it's not as good as a Victron BMV, included in detail in the E101 Wiring a Battery Monitor thread.

This also is not the built in panel digital meter you mentioned.  I'll noodle around the Blue Sea site, but don't remember seeing anything that would mount on a panel that would "be" a real monitor.  Most of them, custom panel or regular panel, get "built" with the ammeter shunt that is usually within the ammeter unit as discussed in the aforementioned E101 Ammeters & Shunts 101 topic.

There's also this:  https://www.bluesea.com/products/1830/M2_DC_SoC_Monitor  I haven't seen it before since it's new.  I just read the instruction manual and it looks like a nightmare.

The simpler digital ammeters come with shunts.

[J_Sail]

Jon,
Noah's boat has a BlueSea Custom panel w Multimeter and he has a SmartGuage. I spec'd the multimeter (which uses a shunt in the neg of the house battery) so that he could always know the current being consumed (or charge rate) at any time. It reads current being used by anything drawing from the house battery, not just the panel load. It is not a coulomb counter (it does not keep a running total of amp-hours). It's a useful complement to the SmartGuage, which does not tell you instantaneous current draw (nor instantaneous battery charger charging current into the battery). Not mandatory, but nice. It's called a multimeter because with the push of a button it reads voltage instead.

[J_Sail]

Regarding a larger battery charger lasting longer, the metaphor of a car engine is not valid. Unlike the mechanical failures of a car engine, the failure of a battery charger's electronics is not due to wear and tear on moving parts. Electronics may fail sooner if they are run at a higher temperature but a well designed charger should last 20+ years regardless. The smaller one *may* turn on its fan more often, but that's about it. The ProSport is a different story as it has inadequate cooling and apparently improperly implemented over temperature protection. I can't say if the ProNautic is well designed or not, but if it is, size shouldn't significantly affect life expectancy.

[J_Sail]

Couple clarifications on Stu's post:

Generally, panel ammeters only measure the amperage in the panel, i.e., the loads you are using on your DC system, only what your panel is using.  They rarely measure total charging amperage, which can only be done at the main negative of the battery bank itself.   Why?  Because an ammeter requires the use of a shunt, and the shunt can only measure the "juice" that is running through it, it has to be in series with the load. 

A long time ago, it may have been true that panel ammeters rarely measured total amperage at the battery, but these days battery shunts are fairly common. A battery shunt generates a small voltage that's proportional to the current thru it. That voltage can be used by a panel meter mounted remotely to display amps (current) or can feed a more complex battery monitor that tracks the average amps over time as amp-hours (aka a coulomb counter) to determine battery state-of-charge. The SmartGauge determines battery state-of-charge without tracking the amp-hours (and therefore does't need a shunt), but as a result it cannot display instantaneous current into or out of the battery either.

The only instrument that will actually show you the actual amount of amps going back IN is a Coulomb counter. 

I think Stu meant to say "The only instrument that will actually show you the cumulative total of amp-hours that have gone back IN is a Coulomb counter."

An ammeter, such as the BlueSea panel-mount multimeter that Jon asked about, will indeed show your the "the actual amount of amps going back IN" at any instant in time, just not the cumulative amount over time.

[Stu Jackson]

Couple clarifications on Stu's post:

1)   

Generally, panel ammeters only measure the amperage in the panel, i.e., the loads you are using on your DC system, only what your panel is using.  They rarely measure total charging amperage, which can only be done at the main negative of the battery bank itself.   Why?  Because an ammeter requires the use of a shunt, and the shunt can only measure the "juice" that is running through it, it has to be in series with the load. 

A long time ago, it may have been true that panel ammeters rarely measured total amperage at the battery, but these days battery shunts are fairly common. A battery shunt generates a small voltage that's proportional to the current thru it. That voltage can be used by a panel meter mounted remotely to display amps (current) or can feed a more complex battery monitor that tracks the average amps over time as amp-hours (aka a coulomb counter) to determine battery state-of-charge. The SmartGauge determines battery state-of-charge without tracking the amp-hours (and therefore does't need a shunt), but as a result it cannot display instantaneous current into or out of the battery either.


2)   

The only instrument that will actually show you the actual amount of amps going back IN is a Coulomb counter. 

I think Stu meant to say "The only instrument that will actually show you the cumulative total of amp-hours that have gone back IN is a Coulomb counter."

An ammeter, such as the BlueSea panel-mount multimeter that Jon asked about, will indeed show your the "the actual amount of amps going back IN" at any instant in time, just not the cumulative amount over time.

1)  A shunt is a shunt.  The location and capacity of the shunt is important in terms of what you want to measure.  Jeremy's post about how he spec'd Noah's panel is just one of the options I mentioned.  Panel ammeters usually, but not always as Jeremy designed his differently, just measure amps at the panel, not the system.  That's why I finished by saying "Follow the Wires."

2)  Yes, most cc's will show both cumulative and instantaneous amperage.   But they don't actually show cumulative amps in, but rather start off with the negative amp hours of the bank, and start counting backwards (+ charging means less - on the meter).  How they work is covered in "The Gotcha" artivcle about the algorithms in cc's in the E101 topic.

[KWKloeber]

Regarding a larger battery charger lasting longer, the metaphor of a car engine is not valid. Unlike the mechanical failures of a car engine, the failure of a battery charger's electronics is not due to wear and tear on moving parts. Electronics may fail sooner if they are run at a higher temperature but a well designed charger should last 20+ years regardless. The smaller one *may* turn on its fan more often, but that's about it. The ProSport is a different story as it has inadequate cooling and apparently improperly implemented over temperature protection. I can't say if the ProNautic is well designed or not, but if it is, size shouldn't significantly affect life expectancy.

I took his reply as "similar to (for a layman)", not "exactly the same as."   Isn't MTBF of components based on operating time, not calendar time?  More work, harder work, more hours, less time between failures.  Maybe I just have too much faith that components are guaranteed to fail (but that's from experience N=2 chargers - a 15a Guest and a 20a ProSport.)

If tied to a dock and therefore all night (or all week) to charge, I still wouldn't spec a 10 amp charger.

kk

[Jon W]

Been making more changes, I think this is version 10 or 12.

I've recently been thinking to do this in phases. The first phase will be the batteries/charger/regulator, then phase 2 is upgrade to a new AC/DC Distribution Panel and battery monitor. The reason is I like what Noah did by adding some lighting CB's at the binnacle instead of all at the panel by the nav station. The problem is I haven't figured out what to do about electronics, which affect the pod at the binnacle.

As a result the attached is a bit of a hybrid between new and next new. The SmartGuage is shown, but may not be there with the first phase. My existing Link 10 is shown floating in the battery box with a note that it's at the nav station. Too many wires to run in a small space so took the easy way out. I'm also showing dual bilge CB's in the distribution panel which won't be there until I get the new panel.

I really like the terminal block MRBF fuse set up. Fewer wires and less space required. So have a question -

In what cases does the importance of being able to quickly/easily remove a fuse without creating a loose dangling wire offset the mounting convenience of the MRBF. For example,  protecting a wire to the alternator or protecting a circuit providing always-on power to critical devices?

I was originally thinking about putting the MC-614 in the salon area by the stbd water tank, but have changed my mind and now have it in the locker under the head sink. I think this is the more traditional spot.

Appreciate everyones help so far. Think I'm finally getting near the end with the attached.

Jon W.

[Jon W]

Have two questions -

In my setup when the engine runs, the alternator will charge the house bank and via the Echo charger will also direct some current to the reserve/start battery. When the AC charger is on and charging, won't the Echo charger perform the same role and direct some of that current to the reserve/start battery? If so, does the AC charger need to be connected to the reserve/start battery at all since the Echo charger redirects current to keep it topped off? I ask because it would allow me to remove ~ 25 feet of 4 AWG.

In what cases does the importance of being able to quickly/easily remove a fuse without creating a loose dangling wire offset the mounting convenience of the MRBF. Example - pull the fuse from the holder and wires remain connected, vs disconnect the wire to remove the MRBF.

Thanks.

Jon W.