Boat damaged - Crack in Keel

Mike Kuder · February 16, 2009, 10:25:16 AM

This comes from: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4781.0.html

Well, we are making some progress. They were able to get a crane in on Saturday and lift the Beneteau off of my C34. I have some hull damage (both inside and out) where the pad broke off the cradle and the boat was sitting on the metal post. There is a crack in the gelcoat at the shear where the Beneteau hit, and some bent stanchions.

Finally, there is a horizontal crack running aft from the leading edge of the keel. It is about 6-8 inches below the "seam" where the keel appears to be attached to the hull. If it wasn't for the other boat blowing over I would think that it is the result of some water getting behind the gel coat and freezing. But it wasn't there in the fall and it would be a bit of a confidence in light of what happened.

Does anyone know the makeup of the keel (wing). I had most of the weight of the boat on the keel while on the cradle. However, if it cracked from the force of the impact of the Beneteau I would expect the crack to be at the "seam" where the keel is attached to the hull. Is it glassed in lead or is most of the lead in the wing?

I have a picture of the crack, but the file size is too big. Still working on attaching the picture.

Waiting to hear from the other owner's insurance company to arrange the survey.

Thanks again for the help and insight. This board is truly invaluable.

Mike Kuder · February 16, 2009, 10:30:21 AM

I was able to compress the picture. Here is a picture of the crack.

Stephen Butler · February 16, 2009, 11:45:14 AM

When our 1990 fin keel went over on the hard during Wilma, besides the damaged rudder we noticed that the traditional "Catalina smile" had significantly increased. We also noticed that a few of the previously torqued keel bolts were now only finger tight. After some lengthy discussions with the yard and a surveyor, thoroughly checking the attachment points, etc., we elected to drop the keel a few inches and re-seal with 3M 5400, re-glass the joint, re-torgue the bolts, etc. Probably over kill, but we sleep better. Just our experience for what it is worth.

Stephen Butler · February 16, 2009, 02:17:15 PM

Forgot to add that we had some bent stantions. Took them to a local shop and had them bent back into the vertical and then carefully checked for cracks. The bow pulpit was badly bent and could have been repaired, but the quotes were at least twice the cost of a new pulpit so we just ordered a replacement from CY. If you have bent stantions, check for vent line leaks. Again, good luck.

Ted Pounds · February 16, 2009, 06:52:24 PM

The keel is a solid, lead casting. It is bolted through the keel-stub which sticks down about 4"(?) below the bottom. It's hard to tell, but I think that crack is below the joint which means it's in the casting. I think that would mean you need a new keel but, again, you really need a good surveyor to look at it.
As for the stanchions, stainless steel doesn't take kindly to being bent and straightened. I would hold out for new stanchions since the insurance will be paying anyway and they are an important safety item. Just a few thoughts...

Ron Hill · February 17, 2009, 06:24:08 PM

Mike : It's normal to have 75% of the boats weight on the keel and the other 25% on the cradle's pads. It's important to have the majority of that 25% being held by the rear pads as the rear of the boat is proportionally heavier (full fuel and engine). The wing likes it's weight on it's nose to preclude the "Catalina Smile"
If the pad that broke (of the 4 cradle pads) was in the rear I'll guess that that contributed to the crack at the keel/hull fwd joint. A thought

Mike Kuder · February 17, 2009, 07:50:40 PM

Ron. The pad that broke was the stern port pad. The interior/exterior hull damage is on the bulkhead under the seat in the rear cabin where the post was on the hull after the pad broke off. My cradle only has 4 pads and when the boat was hit it slid in the cradle so the front 2 weren't holding any weight. I figured this is what caused the crack. When that pad broke off the keel was basically bearing all the weight of the boat.

Does anyone know how much glass is on the keel there? Once the insurance surveyor gets a look we'll grind out the crack to see exactly what we have to deal with.

Ted Pounds · February 18, 2009, 06:45:07 AM

Mike,
There is no glass on the keel proper. However the keel stub which it is bolted onto is a solid lay-up, a couple of inches thick. I believe they use 3M 5200 as the bedding compound between the keel and the stub.

tommyt · February 18, 2009, 08:24:53 AM

When my 2004 had its problems, and the keel replaced, I can assure you that there is lots of fairing material on the keel You crack may only be in that fairing material. However, a great surveyor is the key to this. Theirs and yours!!!!!
Also, don't let them repair what should be replaced, such as stanchions. If this is a replacement of keel issue, which it does not look to be by the pictures, the replacement of the stanchions is a small matter in the total bill for the insurance company.

Good Luck,

Mike Kuder · February 18, 2009, 03:16:31 PM

tommyt. What problems did you have with your keel?

Upon further inspection there is about a 1/4 inch void where the crack is in the keel. The Beneteau hit toward the aft of my boat, but its keel was still on the ground, so my boat didn't take the full weight of the boat. I am not an engineer, but would expect that if the crack resulted from the weight of the Beneteau putting downward pressure on the stern of my boat, causing the keel to separate from the hull at the front, at least some of the keel bolts would have had to have let go. I haven't had a chance to closely inspect the keel bolts or get a torque wrench on them, but would think that there would be obvious signs of damage in the bilge. Conversely, I don't how else to explain the crack and void.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

tommyt · February 18, 2009, 08:27:38 PM

Well, as I stated in another thread, my boat is in charter. A charterer, who was obviously not qualified with common sense, decided to let his children swim in an area where he thought he saw a 60' yacht anchored earlier that day.

There were three shelves at the beach. One at 50', one at 20', and one 3'. He took the boat in and decided to have his wife drop the anchor on the 20' shelf. Unfortunately, that was the only thing that was close to being correct.

First, if he would have looked at the chart that was down below and never moved for the 3 days prior to the accident, he would have seen that the shelf was only about 60' long. That was not the biggest problem however, as in benign conditions he could have gotten away with it. However, the winds had built all day, he was at the end of a 180 mile fetch with winds averaging above 20 kts all day. Waves were in excess of 7' all afternoon. Not a good time to let your young daughters swim off the back of your boat IF you can get an anchor to set and hold.

The wife threw out the anchor and all hell broke loose. Obviously could not get it to set or even get control of it. She yelled for help and he put the transmission in neutral and started forward. Remember that 60' shelf? As he was moving forward they hit the next shelf, the rudder disappeared, and they were balanced on the wing keel in those waves. The good news is that the anchor was out and the boat feathered into the wind because of the anchor. It was the only thing that saved her.

The boat pounded on that beach, moving slowly backward, for FOUR HOURS! The tow company first had to get them off, and then rig bridles to get the boat off. She was pulled free, STILL WITH DRY BILGE, and taken to the yard to be pulled. The owner of the yard, who was once a Catalina dealer, said that it was amazing. He helped pull her off, and said that with each wave she slammed down and the whole rig shuddered. He was amazed that she came through as well as she did, and said that there never was a doubt in his mind about the integrity of Catalina's build.

Obviously, a new rudder was needed. The wing on the keel was ground down and the stern end of it was turned up. Other than that, a few scratches where the anchor hit the bow as the salvage guys were pulling it back in the boat prior to the tug pulling her off...slowly. They had to pull her forward as the waves lifted her to keep her from rolling. Real pros!

Took a while to get the new keel shipped, and then reshipped because the hauler managed to put a fork lift through it, but what was amazing was the lack of the Catalina smile. I did not have one prior to the accident, I did not have one after she was hauled, and two years later I still do not have one on the new keel. One damn good boat.

Aren't you glad you asked? Now, to your crack, I would guess that it is in the fairing material and not that solid 5500# keel. But, as i said before...SURVEYOR! Yours and theirs. I called the surveyor before I even saw the boat. He found a couple of small things that the insurance guy did not, but they ended up agreeing to all repairs and she is just fine.

Oh, that particular charterer is no longer welcome on my boat!

Initially I was going to delete this post, but decided against it. The boat is for sale, and obviously the accident would be disclosed.So if someone is not going to look at the boat, or purchase a boat because of previous damage, they may as well save us all some time. As stated above the boat never had a Catalina smile, even when she was hauled to repair. The repairs were done by Irish Boat Shop in Harbor Springs and they did a great job of repairing her. Still no smile today in 2013. The boat is in great shape, one of the cleanest I have seen, and I am stilol happy with her.

To those worried about the damage, I would worry more about the boat whose damage is not disclosed instead. With the information I have here you certainly know where to look for any problems...which you will not find because they are not there.

Mike Kuder · February 19, 2009, 02:05:40 PM

Tommyt. That would actually be a good story for Sail Magazine's Sailing Sense column. Though, not much to say in the "what we did right" column...

tommyt · February 19, 2009, 06:00:13 PM

Mike,

Actually, the what was right part of the equation was the charter company suggested that the family needed a little more advanced classwork before they were able to charter again. And, never on my boat! I anm a firm believer in the fact that you can teach a lot, but common sense is not one of those things.

I think that the funniest ( hey, you have to laugh) was that the family wanted to know how long it would take to put on a new rudder and keel so they could complete their weeks vacation. Maybe a day?

Actually, 4 months!