Permeated holding tank... is that possible?

Indian Falls · October 22, 2011, 11:58:49 AM

I should just put this directly to Peggy Hall, but maybe some of us could benefit from the post.

Early this year I went all out on my septic system. Changed all the hoses, insured vents are clear, insured there are no leaks, so on and so forth.

Under the Port settee, wherein the holding tank resides, still has a foul odor. I washed and rinsed and flushed this area with "green" type cleaners so they could be discharged from the bilge, to make sure no spillage from servicing the system could linger. However, weeks and weeks after, this area still stinks.

It just so happens that I have some "Pure Ayre" pet odor eliminator due to having an aging four legged friend. So as a resort... I soaked the entire area and tank with it. 2-3 weeks later that tank just stinks. You can put your nose to the top surface and it stinks. After I'd told The fella where I'd purchased the Pure Ayre from what I was doing he suggested that I add a drop or two of detergent to help it penetrate more.

According to all the reading I've done on this forum this tank can't be the culprit, but I disagree.
I have soaked this surface twice with Pure Ayre and it is not having any long term affect. The smell from the holding tank vent is different than the smell from the settee, although both have that "septic system" odor. Yes I do know the difference between a leak in the vent smell and permeated hose smell.

Could I really have a permeated tank?

Ron Hill · October 22, 2011, 12:32:15 PM

Dan : I'm also a believer that anything is possible and in your case the tank could be permeated.

Have you ever removed that tank to insure that effluent isn't underneath ?

Also ask Catalina parts what the cost of a #B179 holding tank is. A few thoughts

Indian Falls · October 23, 2011, 06:52:14 AM

I did not pull the tank out. I'm 99% sure there is no "stuff" under the tank, I can't find any evidence of moisture or other staining anywhere between the bilge and the tank.
If it turns out I'm the only one on the forum with a perm'd tank, I guess I'll be pulling it to look for a leak from the bottom.

Thanks for the part number!

Peggie Hall · October 23, 2011, 08:12:50 AM

I'd bet real money that the tank hasn't permeated...that either there's still a source of odor under it, or there's a hairline crack in the tank. So before pulling the tank finish cleaning that area, let's rule out a leak:

Pump out and THOROUGHLY rinse out the tank. Dump a bottle of red food coloring into it and fill it all the way up to overflowing with clean fresh water. Go away for at least 24 hours. If there's a leak anywhere--hairline crack, weld, fitting, you'll see pink there. If not, no leaks...so you move to the other step:

Pull the tank and clean under it.

Exactly how are you using PureAyre? You should be using it full strength, laying down a fine mist of it onto every surface, nook and cranny where there's odor. If what you have is the small bottle of pet accident version from a pet store, it may be too diluted to do much good...or don't have enough of it to get into every nook and cranny. Get a gallon of the household version directly from PureAyre...put it in a pump type garden spray jug Do NOT rinse...just let it dry, with all hatches open, and even with a fan blowing if possible for at least 24 hours.

A couple of observations...
I washed and rinsed and flushed this area with "green" type cleaners so they could be discharged from the bilge

What you use to clean a bilge which has anything in it that shouldn't be discharged is totally immaterial...'cuz "green" cleaning product do NOT magically transform anything a bilge that isn't "green" into something that's ok to discharged into the water. Detergents emulsify grease, oil and diesel, breaking up the oil SLICK on the water, but the grease, oil etc are still there, unchanged except for molecules that too far apart to hang together to make the slick. So if you shouldn't discharge it before you cleaned the bilge, you still shouldn't, no matter what cleaning product you used. Besides, in the US anyway, ALL cleaning products are "green." "Biodegradable" is a meaningless feel-good term...formaldehyde is biodegradable!

Ron, sewage is EFFluent...rich people are AFFluent.

David Urscheler · October 23, 2011, 10:46:49 AM

And sometimes the AFFluent are full of EFFluent.

n624ma · October 23, 2011, 01:24:50 PM

Peggy,

I did the following test on my tank (I'm in the same place as Indian Falls is in the "Get rid of the STINK" project) I took a sandwich size zip lock bag opened it up and and duct taped it upside down to the top of the holding tank, about four hours later I cut open the bottom and stuck in my nose, PERMEATED!!

The week before I had washed the tank and the inside of the locker with Dawn dish detergent and a scrub brush followed by a hot water rinse followed by Dawn with Clorox and a scrub brush and a hot water rinse.

All the hoses (Drain. Fill and Vent along with the fittings) were replaced over the last two weekends. There are no leaks or cracks, I did a 2 PSI leak check after the hose change (Aircraft mechanics, ever paranoid!)

I was a true believer in "Poly Tanks Can't Permeate" but maybe a 24 year old black B179 can.

Waiting for ideas.

Peggie Hall · October 23, 2011, 02:22:19 PM

You said, "The week before I had washed the tank and the inside of the locker with Dawn dish detergent and a scrub brush followed by a hot water rinse followed by Dawn with Clorox and a scrub brush and a hot water rinse."

BUT...since none of that will completely remove residual odor, did you also apply PureAyre or K.O. to every surface INCLUDING the outside of the tank to get rid of every trace of any odor that could have attached itself to the surface of the tank? And--if hoses were off--did you also plug the open tank fittings?

I can't count the number of people over the years who've assured me that THEIR tank had permeated...("brought it home and put it in my garage and the next day the whole garage reeked")....when in fact, source of the odor was the INSIDE of the tank, escaping through the open inlet, outlet and vent fittings.

And sometimes the AFFluent are full of EFFluent.

n624ma · October 23, 2011, 03:12:21 PM

Peggy,
As we type Marine PureAyre is on the job! I misted all surfaces of the locker and the tank until they were covered then scrub brushed everything I could touch and then did the tank top again (just to be sure).

Everything was connected when I did the leak test, no leaks at 2 PSI for 20 minutes, and the sandwich bag was away from all the fittings and I literally had my nose in the bag.

I'll let you know the results in a week.

Clay Greene · October 25, 2011, 10:57:44 AM

Maybe a silly question, but did you replace the hose from the tank to the macerator? I did not see that mentioned in your post. We went through the same project of replacing all of our hoses to get rid of a noxious smell and found that this hose was a source of a lot of. . . .contaminant. We in fact removed the macerator and capped this outlet because Serendipity always has been and will be a Great Lakes boat and the macerator serves no purpose.

Peggie Hall · October 25, 2011, 01:37:26 PM

That's not a silly question. Several years ago I had half a dozen phone conversations with the owner of a large trawler in FL who had a odor problem that he couldn't find and eliminate. In each one of those conversations I asked him, "Did you replace ALL the hoses?" And each time he answered, "yes." Finally he paid me big bucks to come down and find the source of the odor...it took me all of 30 seconds after we opened the hatch to his holding tank compartment to find the culprit: the hoses from the tank to the macerator pump and then then thru-hull.

"You must have assured me at least 5 times that you replaced ALL the hoses," I said. "Well, I didn't think that one needed to be replaced," he replied.

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Ralph Masters · October 25, 2011, 02:59:16 PM

Peggy,
You can lead a horse to water, but why...................

Ralph

n624ma · October 25, 2011, 04:33:33 PM

Claygr,
Absolutely!! We are in the Ever Expanding East Coast No Discharge Zone so the macerator and all its hoses and fittings came out replaced by plugs in the tank and through hull valve. But as Peggy said good question.

Albreen · October 26, 2011, 01:09:04 PM

After the final pump out this past season I finally pulled the non-functioning macerator and its very odor permeated hose to the tank. The cabin immediately smelled so much better even with the cushion and cover board removed and I haven't yet put the plug in the fitting the hose came out of at the bottom of the waste tank!

Stephen Butler · October 26, 2011, 04:45:27 PM

Some experience. We had a Jabsco macerator pump, new hoses, and a constant lingering smell. What we later found out was that the Jabsco pumps had a design problem that resulted in their corrosion from the inside out. The pump finally twisted apart, but prior to this, it was seeping a drop or two with the resulting smell. We now have a Shurflo with our new hoses (all of them!) and are very happy with the results..no smells.

Indian Falls · October 30, 2011, 05:07:56 PM

I did change ALL the hoses. I cleaned and re-gasketed the macerator. I insured the fittings and hose connections were leak free and dry prior to resuming any use of the system, yes it was full of plain water first. I soaked the entire area with pure ayre twice. It was the 22oz. pet odor eliminator variety but as far as I'm concerned if it won't work on this smell what's the point of using it for pet odor... but we don't know where the odor's coming from so I'm not claiming the product doesn't work.

The tank area still has that bothersome sewage smell.

It very well could be the macerator itself. The carbon fiber housing shaft seal and oil/waterproof paper gasket may be the source of odor. I just don't know why the surface of the tank smells as if it's the source due to the smell being stronger at the tank than at the macerator.