Generators

[David Arnold]

I have been considering purchasing a generator and had pretty much decided to just use the engine for heating hot H2O and charging the battery.  Going through old threads however, I came upon Rons suggestion that running the engine with no load just to charge battery or hot water can be damaging and the price of a portbale generator is a small price to pay.  That said it looks like the generator is a good idea after all, but which one?  The posts suggest that the 1000 will do everything but heat hot water (I don't have A/C), lighter to carry, stores easily in lazarette, quieter and burns less fuel than the 2000.  BUT... The 2000 will heat the hot water.  Has anyone had success heating hot water with the 1000 watt or should I go for the 2000?

[tonywright]

I have the 1000. Turning on the hot water trips the overload. It runs the Charles 3000 charger with no problem. The 2000 is probably a better bet for versatility. I had bought the 1000 having read that the 2000 would not store in the lazarette. I think that this may only apply to the MK I. Larry Robertie stores his 2000 in the lazarette with no problem.

Be aware that the Hondas do generate some noise, and are much louder when the current draw is high. For quiet you can't beat a built-in generator like a Fischer Panda. Wonder if anyone has done this on a C34?

Tony

[Larry Robertie]

Be aware that the Hondas do generate some noise, and are much louder when the current draw is high.

Tony

A couple of things to update the group on with the Honda 2000

• It's not quite as loud as I had originally thought.  My wife used it for the (1500 wt) hair drier when we were at a mooring.  As long as she kept a steady draw it seemed reasonably quiet.  Flicking the drier on and off caused a "revving" that was quite disturbing
• DO be carefull about positioning one of these on the swim platform.  Make sure the exhaust is pointed OUT ANd AWAY from any fiberglass...
• Storage, on the MKII, is not a problem.  The unit is a bit heavy, but not so much that it can't be moved in and out.
  
• If it were not for the extra energy needed on the Microwave, AC, Hair Direr, or Water Heater I'd go with the 1000

[tonywright]

So Larrie, now you have to tell us the story about the exhaust and the fibreglass...?   

[Larry Robertie]

So Larrie, now you have to tell us the story about the exhaust and the fibreglass...?   

Some things a better not stated in detail...

[Ron Hill]

David : You quoted me correctly!! 
Which Honda to buy??  This is really a question of your priorities.  Mine was to charge the batteries, be as quiet as possible and store easily - 1,2,3!!  I knew that it would not heat the water heater, but that's only a problem if you're on the same anchor the second day!  I accepted that inability in the 1000 knowingly.

The Honda 2000 does many more things because of it's double wattage.  I wasn't enamored by the larger capability because it's a little nosier and wouldn't store in the port side Lazarette.  I can't address where Larry stores his 2000 - maybe he secures it to the walk thru, or for all I know in the lazarette??

Set your priorities on what you want your gen set to do and then purchase that equipment.  I'd love to get a Panda (although I've heard that they have some maintenance problems) but space on a MKI with a standard transom is a problem. 
My 1st Mate wanted me to get 2 more of the large 10" dia. fenders. (I already have 10 fenders onboard!!)  I agreed, but told her that the only place left on the boat to store 2 more large fenders was on the port side of the Vberth (her side).  She reconsidered that request!!   

[Larry Robertie]

This is really a question of your priorities. 

Absolutely!  As with everything on a boat you need to evaluate what it is you need... and then what you want!  (This life style, after all, is more about about want than about need!)  As I said earlier, if it were not for the extra stuff I wanted to power I would have opted for the 1000. 

Ya know... there's nothing worse than a boater that buys stuff just so he can say "I got this or that" just for the sake of saying "I got this or that".

The great dilemma, of course, if figuring out what you... need.

[John Langford]

Bought a Honda 1000 before this year's cruise and it was a great addition to the boat. On a second day on the hook I would run it for an hour and a half and that would take almost 30 amp hours off the e-meter. This meant that I could stop worrying about the frig draw and enjoy the second evening. It also meant that I sailed more and allowed the generator rather than the engine to keep the batteries up.

I have two questions after three weeks of generator use. First, why does the reverse polarity light flicker when I am using the generator? When I plug a simple polarity tester into an outlet it shows "open ground" when the Honda is running. Is this a problem? Second, how can I sort out the wattage required to power a Xantrex 40 amp charger? I presently have a ProMariner 20 but its days are numbered. It would be ideal to have a bigger charger which would give me faster charge times when the Honda was running.

[Stu Jackson]

John, a search on "polarity" finds this, among others:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=2921.0

[Stu Jackson]

John, a few threads worth reviewing from a search on Honda.  I remembered Hal Devera's good amperage control here:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=1474.0

Also many others have used generators and have commented on how they charge.  Much depends on the size of your battery bank and its acceptance rate.  At half depleted (50% draw down) a battery bank's acceptance rate is usually only 25% of its rated amp hours.  A 400 ah bank will accept 100 A of charging.

Here's another good thread, see replies #5 & #7:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=2839.0

There is a lot more out there on this Message Board with searches on Honda and generator, but your specific question, as I recall it hasn't been specifically stated yet.  It would be interesting to find out the basic numbers, but we also need to know the folks' house bank size.

Just a reminder that what you're dealing with, as you know, is a SYSTEM.  Battery bank size, "new-o-you" 20 or 40A charger size (and therefore time to recharge) and amperage outputs of the generator all have to work together. 

Here's another one I found that discusses amperage froma 20A charger with a 1000W generator:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=2378.0

[Stu Jackson]

Here's the partial text of the more pertinent parts of the C36 message board for those who don't want to sign on the C36 'site:

Jerry Stadulis, #2211
Skipper
 Posted Tue June 27 2006 07:46 PM  Hide Post
THIS IS A CORRECTION TO MY POST ABOVE. I LEFT THE PREVIOUS POST THERE SO AS NOT TO CONFUSE ANYONE WHO ALREADY HAS READ IT.

After thinking some more about Chris' situation, and reading the C34 thread Stu referenced, I decided I needed to read the Honda genset owner's manual. To quote: "Honda portable generators have a system ground that connects generator frame components to the ground terminals in the AC output receptacles. The system ground is not connected to the AC neutral wire. If the generator is tested by a receptacle tester, it will not show the same ground circuit condition as for a home receptacle."

These statements made me question my assertion that the Honda might represent an increased shock hazard; I couldn't imagine Honda building something that would be a hazard. In fact, my explanation was incorrect. That's because the Honda supplies 120 VAC that's isolated from anything on the boat except the neutral and hot wires. IOW, the only way to get shocked is if you touch these two wires simultaneously. Plus, that situation has ramifications for the RP light.

Since the boat's safety ground is nowhere connected to the neutral of the genset, there should be no voltage difference between either of the genset wires and safety ground. It's the AC equivalent of your car's 12 VDC system, if you consider the boat's safety ground to be the analog for true earth ground in your car's system. With your car, you can measure 12 VDC between anything connected to the battery's positive terminal, and anything that's connected to the battery's negative terminal: the engine block, the frame, etc. But the car's metal components are electrically isolated from true earth ground by insulating rubber tires, so you won't measure any voltage between your battery's 12V terminal, and true earth ground. (The car's ground is referred to as a "floating" or "isolated" ground, with respect to true earth ground.)

OK... for the boat with a Honda genset connected to the shorepower input, that means there should also be no measurable voltage difference between either of the genset's output leads, and the boat's safety ground. The only measureable voltage should be between the hot and neutral leads of the genset. (In theory, you could hold on to either of the AC leads and touch any metal on the boat, including its safety ground, and not get shocked.) That should also mean that there should never be any voltage difference that would cause the RP light to illuminate. It also means that you could even have high resistance in either of the neutral or hot wire circuits that would cause voltage drop in them, but _still_ you shouldn't measure any voltage between the boat's safety ground and neutral, nor should you _ever_ expect the RP light to come on.

If that's the case - and numerous C34/Honda genset owners confirm that it normally is - I think the only way for the RP light to come on is if there is an electrical connection between the boat's safety ground and one (or both) of the hot or neutral wires. BUT, the connection has to poor enough so it doesn't act like a direct short, otherwise it would cause the genset's ouput circuit breaker to trip. I'm not sure exactly what it could be, but some damp, salty residue on the connector plugs, or something else that acts like a fairly high resistance connection between one of the wires and safety ground would do it. I'd welcome other suggestions.

Chris, I'm sorry for leading you down the wrong road with the previous posts. I just didn't understand the Honda was isolated the way it is, and that makes a huge difference in what could be causing your symptoms. But I also need to reiterate that high resistance in a standard shorepower connection, i.e. where neutral and safety ground are connected, _can_ cause the RP light to come on, and that's a fairly common problem.

Jerry

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jerry Stadulis, #2211, Wed June 28 2006 03:37 AM  
 Posts: 131 | Location: Arlington, TX | Registered: Tue May 04 2004  

Ignored post by Jerry Stadulis, #2211 posted Tue June 27 2006 07:46 PM  Show Post

Cmhyland
C36IA Member
 Posted Wed June 28 2006 05:55 AM  Hide Post
Jerry,
There are two other people on my dock that have EU2000i gens. One guy has a Bayliner the other an Abermarle.

Both of the other units light the RP light on their boats.

That tells me this is something to do with the Gen not the boat wiring. My C36 is a 2001 and the wiring is as installed by the factory.

The two other boats I mentioned are 2005 boats.

Thanks,
Chris

CMH
Beau Jouet
2001 C36 #1971  
 Posts: 18 | Location: Woodstock Valley,CT USA | Registered: Fri February 14 2003  

Ignored post by Cmhyland posted Wed June 28 2006 05:55 AM  Show Post

Jerry Stadulis, #2211
Skipper
 Posted Wed June 28 2006 08:06 AM  Hide Post
Chris,

It's kind of hard to troubleshoot this via the forum. Depending upon how familiar you are with AC circuits, you might either try testing with a multimeter, talking with someone at Honda, or ultimately getting a ABYC-knowledgeable electrician to check this out.

It's not clear to me why all of these three units would be causing their boats' RP lights to illuminate, unless there's AC voltage present between each boat's AC neutral wire and the boat's safety ground. ABYC wiring guidelines are designed to prevent this from happening, because there's an increased electrocution hazard under some fault conditions. So it's something you need to understand, at least, and possibly fix.

Jerry
 Posts: 131 | Location: Arlington, TX | Registered: Tue May 04 2004  

Ignored post by Jerry Stadulis, #2211 posted Wed June 28 2006 08:06 AM  Show Post

Cadence
Newbie
 Posted Wed June 28 2006 09:07 AM  Hide Post
I also experienced the same RP light with my Yamaha 1kw generator this spring on a 1990 Mk1. Tried to connect to my shore power cord through an adapter, and had the reverse polarity light come on. I didn't have the time to do much trouble shooting, batteries were flat, and I neded them charged, so I just connected the charger directly to the generator to get the batteries up. This was back in April, but if I remember right, the RP light only came on with an AC load, and I got some really odd voltage readings between the the neutral and gound, and the hot and ground, 60 volt range. My initial thought was a grounding problem, and I hope to be able to spend more time on this yet this summer.
 Posts: 2 | Location: Lake Superior | Registered: Wed June 28 2006  

Ignored post by Cadence posted Wed June 28 2006 09:07 AM  Show Post

Bob R
Newbie
 Posted Tue July 04 2006 06:48 AM  Hide Post
I believe the problem is caused by the fact that the small generators are supplying 60 volts on each leg. Therefore there is no neutral leg provided. This should not present any problems. I used my Honda 2000 quite extensively during an 8 month cruise, mostly at anchor.
 Posts: 1 | Registered: Tue July 04 2006  

Ignored post by Bob R posted Tue July 04 2006 06:48 AM  Show Post

chic
Newbie
 Posted Wed July 05 2006 05:14 PM  Hide Post
I just bought at 2000 this past spring and have not had an opportunity to hook it up the boat. Having read a number of threads on this subject all the users raved about the Honda and how well it worked. Is this an isolated case or do all the other Honda users have the same problem? Bob you mentioned you used yours for 8 months while at anchor was the RP light on during all that time?
 Posts: 10 | Location: Rochester NY Lake Ontario | Registered: Thu April 13 2006  

Ignored post by chic posted Wed July 05 2006 05:14 PM  Show Post

Caprice
C36IA Member
 Posted Thu July 06 2006 11:57 AM  Hide Post
Bob
Do you run an A/C unit off your generaror and if so, how big is your A/C unit?

Mike
 Posts: 61 | Location: Punta Gorda Isles, Fl | Registered: Mon August 01 2005  

Ignored post by Caprice posted Thu July 06 2006 11:57 AM  Show Post

Stu Jackson C34
C36IA Member
 Posted Mon June 25 2007 09:35 AM  Hide Post
Terry of Naples had problems with his Honda 2000. He reported back as follows. Thought you'd like to know.

Honda 2000 generator update
Last month I reported my Honda 2000 iu generator would not run my battery charger or AC at anchor and it just quit on me and would not staret. I also said my charger went KaPut. Both have now returned to me the generator had a bad carborator and had to be replaced. It runds like a champ now but took awhile to find out the problem at the dealer. I guess they seldom have break downs. The battery charger was relplaced under warranty. I have no idea what the problem was there. I just went out and ran the Honda for an hour with the AC on and house bank on. Charger worked fine as did the AC and all outlets tied into it throughout the boat. So ??? go figure?? I guess it was the generator. I have a Catalina 34 witha FLagship marine 16500 ac unit. Seemed to cool right down. AHHHHH It only had about 20 hours on the generator but was purchased in 2004 after "Charlie came through this area. > Honda gave some credit for that lack of use. Thought some of you wanting to know if these units will power your AC and the boat. For me ..yes

Stu "Aquavite" C34 #224 (1986) M25 SR/FK  
 Posts: 67 | Location: Piedmont, CA | Registered: Mon June 19 2006  

[Ron Hill]

Guys : Here's another nuance of the Honda gen set.
It has an oil low light that will come on and then shut down the generator!!

I did an oil change and filled to what I thought was the correct level.  Ran the Honda and it quit after about 10 minutes.  Went back out and it started back up and I went below.  Heard it sputter and quit again!!  Thought it was the vent that I forgot to open!  Vent was open and I started the Honda again, waited about 5 minutes and all was well.  Then it quit again.  My 1st Mate asked me what the light meant just before it quit?  She saw it and I didn't.  Guess what it was - the low oil light!!  Added a little bit more oil and now all is OK! 
Learn from my experience!!   

[Chris Martinson]

I bought  the 2000 and am very pleased with it....heats the hot water and charges the batteries at the same time...however, does make a LOT of noise when both the hot water heater and charger are on and use the micro...need to turn off the eco switch for this.  Storage on the MK I is an issue....I keep the gas cans in the inflatable and store the generator AFTER I RUN IT DRY under the nav station....yes it is near the battery charger.  My charger is ignition protected but I don't like to take a chance and run it dry...does take some fueling considerations...it runs very long on little gas.  I have a Xantrex 40 amp charger and during my cruise this year there was  crew mix up and the generator was stored with some gas in it....no problems when the charger come on but don't suggest it.

Chris Martinson
More Therapy
Hull No 945

[David Arnold]

Having stated this thread I felt I should update...  I purchased the 2000 as the first mate does like her creature comforts and storage is not a problem of the lazarette of an MKII.  Chris is correct that it tends to make lots of noise when the draw is high such as the water heater, micro, etc.  I will try the eco switch and see if that makes a difference.  For me, I feel the 2000 was the right decision but as was pointed out you need to decide what your priorities are.  Thanks for all the help that was offered above...