Weather helm C34

[John Cotterill]

Hi

I am looking at purchasing a 1993 C34. I had my first sail on it today.
It seemed to have a considerable amount of weather helm in a moderate 15 knot to 18 knot breeze to windward.

The yacht has the original main and 120% headsail (I think) and not a tall rig.

Is this normal???

The boat otherwise is beautiful but the weather helm is really putting me off.

JohnC (Australia)

[Craig Illman]

We ease off the traveller a bit and the boat balances real well with the same setup. You're about at the reefing point. How much were you healing? I've seen on this forum that if you're healing more than about 15%, you're just going sideways. Probably someone with a lot more experience will give a more accurate answer. We were out this weekend with a Beneteau 32, I was surprised to hear that they had their first reef in, with a newer mainsail that will probably flatter a lot better than my fourteen year old one.

[Ken Heyman]

Just curious-----Does your Catalina have the relatively new elliptical rudder? My 1988 does as the PO had replaced the standard 1988 rudder. I have sailed 34's with each and the elliptical rudder makes a considerable difference in reducing the tendency to round up in a blow (all other things equal).

Good luck,

Ken

[Stu Jackson]

John

Don't let that boat get away.  

15-18 knots most people reef.  I used to do so (and still do if I'm still cruising) until I started racing a few years ago and really learned to sail the boat to its potential.  For instance, I was out yesterday for Fleet Week on SF Bay with the Blue Angels.  It blew from 10 to 20 and I had the full main up with my 110 jib (racers here go with 130s, but I don't have one that big).  I've learned to sail and balance the boat, including using the autopilot, with NO problems.  There's been plenty written about weather helm on C34s, and I think most of it is lack of experience (not incorrect sailing, mind you, but just learning how to use the boat).  End result: I can fly more canvas in higher winds than I ever used to do because of the experience I've gained.

Once you get the boat tracking well going upwind, it'll sail itself, once you've found the "groove."

I have an '86 boat with the old rudder.

Buy the boat, you'll regret it if you don't.

Also, with the original main, what shape is it in?  Is it OEM Catalina, or another manufacturer?  Our main is 19 years old and very baggy, but it's OK for me.  Doesn't point as high as the racers, who have VERY flat mains.  What kind of shape was the 120 in?  All sorts of other angles (no pun intended) on the heeling issue.

BTW, there was a recent post somewhere, maybe on this board, about "rail in the water."  In the eight years I've been here, I have not heard of anyone who's had trouble with stability - really hard to get water up on the lee side.

[Jim Price]

I started one of the messages about 3 years ago when I first got the boat and got in over my head single handling in 30+ knot burst with full main and 150 up.  I have learned since then.  

I find the boat grooves best when pointing very high around 15 to 20 degrees max.  Some times a puff will pop over 25 + degrees.  I am running a 14 year old OEM Catalina main that will not flatten out.  Best performance and ride is around 10-12 degrees for me.  Also running fin keel.

[Ron Hill]

JohnC : There have been many, many posts on the weather helm of the wing keel C34.  There are  three solutions:
1.  Put a reef in the main
2.  Install a back stay adjuster
3.  Change your old rudder to an elliptical rudder (with more surface area).  Or modify the one you've got to an elliptical rudder - like I did.  My modification is written up in the Mainsheet tech notes (with pictures)and also in the Projects list.  

[John Cotterill]

Guys

Thanks heaps for all your help.

It look like from what you are saying that the weather helm (rounding up) is not a particular trait of the boat but it may a case of operator error (pushing too hard).

Maybe some more time with the boat will help.

By the way it had a standard rudder configuration.

JohnC

[SteveLyle]

I think it IS a particular trait of the boat, especially...

the original rudder shape (pre 95(?) or so)
tall rig (but the reg does it too)
wing keel vs fin keel (but the fins do it too)
with a lot of sail up
18+ knots of AW

I believe the wide body nature of the hull contributes.

Can you master it/control it/deal with it?  Absolutely.  Learn to reef, learn when to reef.  Reef before you need to.  Get a good hand on the traveler in the puffs.  

I've never heard of anyone getting rid of their 34 because of weather helm.  It's the nature of the beast, but the beast can be tamed, and the overall nature of the package makes it worthwhile to do so.

Steve

[Roc]

One item not mentioned here is 'mast rake', not to be confused with mast bend.  Think of rake as how the mast angles aft.  When the rake is too far back, the center of effort is aft of where it should be, thus creating more weather helm.  If the rake is forward, lee helm will occur.  You may need to reduce the rake of the mast (angle it forward) to move the Center of Effort forward.  Do that by tightening the forestay and loosening the backstay, in order to try to pivot the mast forward, while keeping the mast bend intact.

On my boat, she's well balanced at around 10 knots.  I can pretty much let go of the wheel and she'll sail straight.  Over 12 knots, some weather helm is apparent and at 15, it's time to spill air out of the main by moving the traveller to leeward.  By spilling air out, I'm reducing the force on the main that is trying to 'spin' my boat to weather.  Reducing rake does the same thing by moving that force forward.

[Footloose]

JohnC

As a new owner of a C 34, I would concur with everything that has been said.  I have had my 1988 std rig since May of this year and love the boat.  We have two young children (ages 8 and 10) and feel confident going out with them in 25 knots of wind with the sails reefed down.  I have sailed with just myself and the kids in about 12-14 knots and no auto pilot and full canvas.  I am also not shy about reefing and when the wind is approaching 18 knots I throw the first one in.  The boat will go as fast or faster with properly reefed sails and it will be on its feet and everyone is having more fun.

As a side note this boat has way less weather helm than my previous boat.

[Jeff Kaplan]

John,

Figured I'd put in my 2 cents worth, too.

I just finished my first full season with #219, 1986 tall rig, shallow draft, full rudder.   Had a new main sail made by Doyle to start the season.

I owned a C27 for years so this was a good jump up. I will say that the C34 far exceeded all my expectations.   She is fast, stable, and very comfortable. handles like a dream.   Up here in the n.e. the wind is usually blowing pretty good.  We mostly cruise in 12-15 knots.   I only experienced true weather helm once.   We were out in 18+ knots and got hit by a good gust, close hauled, full sails,130% genny, and we rounded up into right into the wind.   What a rush. it only takes once to learn to spill air quick and get off the wind.  Other than that, the boat is a dream to sail.   I highly recommend you consider this model...jeff kaplan

[John Cotterill]

Hi Guys

Thanks for all your help and advice.

Went for a further sail and put you advice into practice with pleasing results.

Have come to an agreement on the boat and soon will be a proud C34 owner.  

I am sure to be back in contact soon with more questions.

John (soon to be#1257)