inverters and a few misc comments

[captran]

Hi All,
Even though the inverter seems to be working I am thinking it would be a good idea to replace it (since the insurance has covered it).  Have a Portawattz 1000, I think, but in doing some research seems that there are a number of Xantrex models available too.  What models do you all use?  I looked through the past 5 years of practical sailor and found nada, and did a search on this web site.  Any ideas?  usually use it for occasional drill use, and TV/VCR.  Not sure how it would be to use a low watt electric heater to warm the cabin alittle on those coolish mornings of the NW during summer time.

Also, will pick up the T-9 this week and am looking for source for the "dilectric silicone grease".  Making some progress on the stain for the v berth lower panel at the foot of the bed.  Spent three hours at the place where I bought the teak.  Came close by combining colonial cherry and red mahogany but need alittle golden tone to it for a more exact match.  Yesterday dropped off the old piece at Columbia Paints and they will hopefully have a very close match custom made by this afternoon.  Am also going to see if I can disassemble the port two cabinets but I don't know how Catalina attached them.  There are small pieces of wood on the inside edges and I'll take those off to see if that is what is holding the unit in place.  I have still had no luck with call backs from Catalina.  Also, I sure wish I knew their source of fabric on the forward and aft cabin cushions.  I would love to just buy the covers.  The foam is in great shape but there are a few stains (which are visible if you know where to look).  The main cushions have cleaned up very nicely, though it is labor intensive.

[Roc]

Capt Ran.  To get the cabinetry out, you only need to take the screws out from the frame.  The whole assembly will come out as one unit.  Be careful as you take the screws out as the assembly may shift, keep it pressed against the fiberglass until you can get a good hand on it.  I've taken this port side V-Berth assembly out when installing the A/C duct.  Also, the drawers in the galley are assembled the same way.

This assembly unit method seems to be how Catalina is able to mass produce the internal cabinetry and just pop it in by screwing into the fiberglass pan using the frame screws.

Hope this helps.
Roc-

[captran]

Thanks Roc,
When I was on the boat last week end I looked on the inside of the two cabinets  on either side of the lower window and did feel some screws.  So, are you saying it is the screws that are inside the small cabinets on the small pieces of wood along the edges on the back side and the bulkhead side that will release the cabinets and there are no other connection points?  If that's so, it seems simple enough.  It would be nice to bring them home and either refinish or replace.  I did get the catalog of pieces from H and L, but I am hoping I can just refinish, but I'm not opposed to making new if they are that removable.  The top of the cabinet that acts as a shelf should provide some stability to the unit.  If you're done it, that encourages me that it can be done.  Fantastic!!!!

[Roc]

Captran,
No, it doesn't sound like you understand my description.  The cabinetry is affixed by the screws that are around the frame, what appears to be just holding the door on.  It's those screws you need to remove and the whole unit, inside cabinets, frame, door and all will come right out.  You don't need to remove anything INSIDE the unit.  Those screws that seem like they are only holding the frame and door in place, actually hold the whole unit to the boat.  

My boat is a 2000 MkII and that's how the cabinets are assembled and held in place.

Hope this description clears things up.

[captran]

Thanks Roc, I hope when I get back aboard it makes sense.  I have a Mark II  # 1347.  The door, as I recall, has 4 screws on the hinge.  Again, I am talking about the little cabinets on either side of the lower window on the port side.  I guess I'll start there.  I don't recall seeing any other screws on the outside of the frame per se, but my visual memory may have missed some detail.  While on the boat last weekend I was looking around on the outside and inside the cabinet.  There were some small 1" boards on the inside of the cabinet as if an internal frame that I thought might be screwed into the bulkheads and the back wall inside, but maybe I missed seeing some outside screws.  I guess all I can do is what I can do.  Sometimes I am on the dense, concrete side, so sorry for the extra confusion.  I hope I'll get it when I see it.  

quote for the day:  "Of all of the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most."

Thanks

Randy
#1347

[Stu Jackson]

Randy

Try this:

http://www.c34ia.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=833&highlight=arck

All I could find based on my recollections.  Xantrex makes good ones, and you can't go wrong with most of what's on the market with the major names.  Use West Marine's Advisor for detailed input.  OTOH, if it's still working and puts out the power you need, why swap it?  I guess if they're paying for it it's worth it.

I'll keep hunting around.

[Roc]

Captran,
You're on the right track by looking at the outside frame.  And if you are talking about the shelves ( covered by upper door) of the storage area on the port side V-Berth, below the portside window, we are talking about the same place.  

There are 6 screws on the frame, one at each corner and one midway on the longer, vertical pieces.  This frame surrounds both the upper and lower door to the storage area. Take all 6 out and the whole frame,  both doors and upper shelves come out.  I've done this because I ran the A/C duct into the V-Berth right below that lower shelf.  

When you're on the boat, I think you'll see what I mean.  You won't need to disassemble any cabinetry since it comes out as a whole unit.

[captran]

Roc, thanks for trying.  I don't think we were singing off the same sheet of music.  If I understand right, I think you are talking about the large cabinet in the V berth area on the port side,just below the forward most window,  that has two doors, one on top with two small shelf units and one on the bottom that goes to the hull.  I was talking about the two small cabinets that are on either side of the lowest window on the Catalina  on the port side.  If you look at the pic on the following link (just in case my attempt to post a cropped image fails):   http://www.catalinayachts.com/yachts.cfm?act=model&id=23&link=photos

There are four of these cabinets on the boat about 18" x 12", two on each side of the boat, with a retaining wood piece to hold stuff on the shelf that fits between the two cabinets.  One close to the chart table and the other, just above the two pillows in the pic at the link.  Those are the two cabinets I am hoping to remove.  I knew we were not talking about the same thing when you mentioned screws in the frame.  I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed that they are attached by screws only, and not glued or epoxied in place, other wise they'll have to wait till spring.//

[Ted Pounds]

If it's it like the older C34's the cabinets on yours are just held in with screws in the face-frame.  The screws are probably counter sunk and bunged (covered with wood plugs) so you may not see them.  If you look carefully around the frame you should spot the bungs in at least the four corners and possibly elsewhere on the frame.  There should be no glue used; at least there wasn't on my boat.

[captran]

Well, thanks all.  I'll drive over tomorrow and see if my initial impression proves out.  The newer boats have the small bread box sized cabinets.  The top of the cabinet is white board, around which there is a lip of teak with rounded corners with screws bunged.  (that's a new term for me, thanks).  But I am hoping that the cabinet itself is held on by the screws on the inside pieces of wood that are all around the inside of the box.  It would make logical sense that those pieces of wood are both screwed into the top white board, and that they are also screwed into the bulkhead and the back side to hold the cabinet to the boat.  But , of course, little is logical in the boat world.  I am keeping my fingers crossed.  

It would have been so nice to hear from Catalina but I can't get an e mail nor phone response.  Actually, Two weeks after I had called and followed up with an e mail to buy a mast step, after getting a part number even  (I mistakenly thought mine might have been damaged, but it wasn't) I did get one message which referred me to the manufactures of the mast step.  But, as I said, I didn't need one after all.  But I did e mail and call to get some questions like cabinet installation and floor varnish and a few things, but never word heard.

On a more positive note..well, not greatly positive- but I had the yard in Anacortes go through the boat and they have provided Boat US with an estimate to repair the dings in the hull, put in a new hot water heater (they are proposing a red dot? (supposedly better than seaward), a new windlass switch and the few areas of tabbing inside the boat that look like they should be redone, restepping the mast, etc.  Over 10k!  Holy Moly hurricanes are expensive.  I am hoping insurance will cover most if not all of it.  (they might balk at the new side striping that got slightly damaged rubbing on the stands that the Marina proposes to replace).  Well, that's all for now.  I'll let you all know what I find, not that it is a typical issue.

Randy
Voyager #1345

[captran]

The breadbox size cabinets are removable.  A series of 1x1" are along the bottom sides with two to three screws from each angle, half going into the cabinet wall and half going into the white board.  Of course I got all but one going into the whiteboard  and all but one going into the cabinet wall.  I don't know if it was the angle, or that it was screwed in with something to make it tight, but I had to drill out the last stubborn screw on each side which means I'll replace the two small 1x1 pieces that serve as a mounting surface.  that will be easy.  Now the refinishing should be easy, both on the cabinets, which really are only water stained the bottom 2 or 3 inched, and the side paneling that goes along the hull, which really are not too bad except for in between where the boards come together.  

I did finish preparing the bulkhead forward of the setee, hand sanding carefully so as not to go through the veneer, and got a single coat of varnish on it.  In one area the grain turned slightly darker than the rest, but noticeable only if you look very carefully (and that's behind the cushion anyway).  It was a very good match with helmsman clear gloss, available with spray or brush on.  I may try some Olaxic acid on it after I finish all the other projects.  It is looking better than I hoped for.

I checked the fit of the panel I cut to replace by the foot of the V berth.  It fits perfectly.  I noticed Catalina, in their haste to install, mounted the wood piece that they glued to the hull, flush with the hull, to screw that piece of teak into.  But since the hull curves,  the piece you screw the teak plywood into has a slight angle to to at the top, creating a very slight bow in the plywood.  I noticed that bow when I took the old piece out. I guess no big deal as it will be a same swap out.  I do think, unlike Catalina, I will varnish the edges of that piece and the back. Now matching the stain in that area is tricky.  Since it's new teak, using a clear varnish is much browner that the old wood above it and around the boat.  As it ages, the surrounding teak takes on a reddish amber tint.  After experimenting with 10 different colors, I think I have as close as I can get with the minwax red oak over golden pecan, then cover with helmsman clear gloss.  I think I'll tackle that next, then the cabinets which I think I will use a heat gun rather than sand off the varnish.

I also brought home the steps to refinish, as they have been in need of that for a while.  I was thinking about the helmsman gloss for that too.  Any thoughts?  I was also wondering if any of you have added non-slip tape to the steps and if you have been happy with looks and performance?

Sprayed all the connections with the Boeshield T 9 including the busbars.  I looked things over very carefully and saw no corrosion anywhere.  

I am also still interested in hearing other opinions on inverters.  There is rust forming on the outside of mine and although it appears to work, I think it will be much safer to replace.  Thinking about one of the Xantrex models.  Consumer marine seems to be the cheapest on every item so far, (ie  on the link 20 they were $100 cheaper than West when on sale) and I have been printing up their ads but buying at West with price matching.  My St 50 plus instruments should have arrived at Rayathon by now so will give then a call to see if those are fixable.  My main Caulder books have been replaced via Amazon.com and have arrived.  They were 33% cheaper than at West Marine.   guess I won't replace my Bahamas Chartkit and will have to look at my NW chart kit to see if I should replace that with a newer version.

It's now a wait to hear from the insurance re the hull/gel coat, hotwater heater, boot stripe, side striping replacement that will be done by the Marina if approved. (also the slightly bent bimini frame repair). I imagine it will be after the new year that they get all that done and we get to re step the mast.  Still have not heard from NW rigging. (they were going to dye test the fittings.) How often have you all replaced your rigging?  It seems like size wise, what Catalina uses is adequate.  The manual says replace every 7 years, especially in humid climates.  Since the mast is off, I'm thinking maybe now would be a good time to go ahead and re rig, as the boat is 8 years old now.

Well, I'd rather be sailing, but at least I have enough boating stuff here at the house to keep me busy till Christmas.

[Stu Jackson]

Randy

Glad to hear you're making progress.

Don't know if you've thought about this, but in reading your various posts, and the great work you're doing, it occurred to me that a future owner may, just may, do some searching and find out what your insurance company did with your claim.  I think it would be wise to VERY carefully document EVERYTHING both they and you have done to the boat since the incident.  By the time you're done with her, she'll be a better boat, but some future purchaser may not think that way.

Re: standing rigging:  try here:  http://www.c34ia.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1443&highlight=rigging

One of the links still goes to infopop, so try the recommended search query.

For the steps, try one of the earliest Mainsheets, way back in 1987 or 1988 on the Tech Notes Index, I think.  The recommendation was to use Min Wax in the cracks.  Works for us and was the first thing we did.  Looks like a teak and holly sole on the steps.  I think the associate webmaster added it as a "bonus" thing to the website, since it wasn't scanned in the first time around.  See Nov. 1988.  Scroll to the bottom item and click on its link, not just the Nov. 88 link.

Spraying T9 is good, but remember to back off each screw a little bit to let the T9 do its stuff inside the connection.  

There aren't too many competitors to Xantrex regarding inverters.  Go with #1 in a field of 1!  If anything, it wouldn't hurt to go as large as you can within your price range, since everything in the future would seem to want more power, or at least you could turn more than one thing on at a time.  Do you have it wired into your AC or are you just using the plugs on the inverter?

All the best,

[captran]

I have cut and pasted all the links on rigging to read later.  Thanks.

Yes, we are documenting everything, and are keeping the receipts.  We are also documenting hours.  For example, the cushions were in much better shape than we had thought thanks to a friend that got them outside to dry.  We are painstakingly cleaning each one with a mixture of the soapless 212 upholstery cleaner and a small about of bleach.  I would have preferred to at least get new covers for the berths, but Catalina only sells a complete set of cushions, no parts, and by the time they add up shipping it would have well exceeded what the insurance company allowed.  The other major expense from the insurance company deals with the wood refinishing.    If we can do a professional looking job ourselves we'll do that.  If and when the time comes to sell, we'll have everything documented and  new owner can have a surveyor check it all out.  All of the big things including fiberglass and gel coat repair and painting we are having professionally done.  But little things like wiring the bilge pump switches, installing new water pump, the link 20 and inverter, I believe I can do myself saving more than a few dollars in labor.  (I've rewired a house from the ground up so I should be able to do a few simple things).  

As to inverters, there are a large number of Xantrex:  there are the power plus models 1200 and 1750.  The Xantrex "porta wattz" 1750  and the Prowatt 1000 and 1750, all by Xantrex.  I'll keep researching.

s always, Stu, appreciate your sage wisdom and knowledge.

Thanks again

Randy

[Mike Vaccaro]

Randy,

If all the inverter is doing is providing occasional AC power to non-electronic equipment, the more inexpensive Xantrex models are probably sufficient.  If your power needs include sensitive electronic equipment (usually computers or televisions), then you may need a true sign wave type, which costs considerably more.  Some models even perform dual duty and act as a high quality three-stage battery charger as well when the system is hooked into shore power.  Remember when you do your energy budget that inverters aren't a panacea, since they can rapidly deplete a small battery bank.  If you look at the power draw of a typical 120 volt AC appliance, you can multiply the amperage draw by 10 to estimate the draw in "amp hours" from your 12 volt DC system.  For example, if your AC coffee maker draws 12 amps at 120 volts and you run it for fifteen minutes, you'll use about 35 "amp hours" of battery.  The extra 5 amps accounts for inverter inefficiency (most are about 85% efficient).

Some thoughts on hull repair:  We had some superficial gelcoat damage done by a neighbor's toe rail during hurricane Ivan.  After we moved the boat and I started to research gel coat repair, I found out how difficult it is to color match.  Also found out that even when the match is good at the time of repair, it may age differently than surrounding gel coat after UV exposure.  Also, I was growing tired of buffing and waxing; so we decided to have the topsides painted with polyurethane.  Our boat is an older 1988 model, so we figured that the gelcoat had served it's purpose, but annual buffing and waxing every three months (Florida sun and salt water) was too much work.  We found a yard in Panama City that spray paints and after three coats of epoxy primer and three more coats of Awlgrip 2000, are extremely pleased with the results.  The only down-side was the cost.  It was about 5500 dollars, which included the cove stripe, boot stripe and all of the graphics as well as painting the toe rail above the rub rail.  This was partly offset by the insurance money (which was based on an estimate to repair the gel coat).  It was our decision to paint the whole hull and I indicated this to the insurance company since in our case, I have to send them a copy of the bill to close the claim.  

Undoubtedly, a good repairman will be able to do a good job in gelcoat and you've got a younger boat, but we succumbed to the ultra-low maintenance finish--only time will tell how it holds up!  I also think that we were fortunate to find a skilled painter to spray the finish vs. the more popular "rolling and tipping" technique.  

Glad to hear you're making good progress!

Cheers,

Mike

[captran]

I was wondering about that issue of color matching on the hull.  I was shown an example of their work on the boat next to mine, an Oday 25 that had the bow knocked off by a tree.  It was excellent workmanship and looked like a new boat, so I am hoping mine will turn out OK.  I guess if the repaired areas age differently I'll have to have it painted but that would be out of pocket.  I know what you mean about the Florida sun and waxing as that's where we had been keeping the boat.  I am looking forward to waxing and buffing up here instead of in the heat of the Florida sun!  The dampness up here is the issue for boats and will be interesting to see how she fares in her new digs.

As to inverters, I called Xantrex and talked with a technician.  I don't use it much, only for a few movies with a small TV/VCR and a rare drill, but that was when we were cruising the Bahamas, and the statpower portawattz 1000 was fine.  I am leaning toward the Prowatt model 1000 watt.  The technician said the X power plus has a meter where as the prowatt has the lights bar. the X power plus is cheaper. Since I have the link 20 I don't need a meter and just like both the looks and design of the prowatt alittle better, maybe because it is more like what is on the boat.  (and the fact that it got wet and still works!) And I have the true charge 40 already, so no need to replace it with an inverter charger.  I'm getting my Christmas shopping list together.  (With all this hurricane damage in Florida I think the retail and housing parts of the economy should be quite strong!)

I am very pleased with the wood.  After removing the two cabinets it is clear that the structure of the teak plywood is in very good shape.  There is no sign of swelling or permanent damage.  I spent over 4 hours on removing the old varnish of the worst area to see what it would look like, an area about 4" by 6" and I believe I can restore it to like new condition.  I am so relieved.  I know it will take many hours of sanding to remove all the varnish, which was put on rather poorly by Catalina and it may end up looking better than the original.  I guess that's why the insurance Company allots the price they do for such repairs. The typical yard charges $75 an hour!  I have also done my first coat of varnish on the piece by the foot of the V berth after getting a very close match with a stain under of gold pecan and red oak.  It's a beautiful piece of wood with an amazing match of grain to the original.  Since that area is prone to condensation, especially below the area of the cushions, having the extra varnish on the sides and back face will provide better than new protection.  I couldn't be more pleased.

With the short holiday week I'm not sure if I will hear from Raymarine yet on the depth and speed instruments. And will content myself to be a wood worker while also waiting to hear from Boat US about authorizing the start of the work by the yard.  I'm definitely going to know the boat better than I ever thought possible.

Oh, I guess I'll e mail Stu as I'm having trouble finding the article from the 88 tech notes on the steps (putting a different stain inside the routed out lines in the steps so it gives the effect of teak and holly).  That sounds like it would look very nice.

Thanks all,

Randy