Messages

[Battery Switch]

Well gents with a little help from my friends at C34IA I think I got 'er.

I wanted to order my stuff from MaineSail, but cross-border hassles proved prohibitive, so I donated on his web-site instead.  Thanks a tonne MaineSail, your help is very much appreciated (as is everyone's).

As mentioned earlier, my Battery Switch is a graphic display for my ease of understanding and makes it simple to blend the two banks if required.
1 has the House Bank feed domestic load,
2 has the Start Bank feed the domestic load in case 1 has failed and I need to use the radio etc., and
BOTH connects the entire system to get as much juice to the starter as available.

My 150 Amp CB in the Starter circuit is easy to access and will be used as an Emergency Starter Disconnect.

I went with Crown CR-235 6V Golf Cart batteries, more for availability and price; their numbers are slightly better than the T-105 but not enough to make a difference.

I tried to make it as simple a diagram as possible in case anyone else is doing something similar or cares to comment on any errors I've made.  Pin numbers are in the circles.

I've still got my ProMariner ProIsoCharger, so a combiner would make for a slightly simpler set-up and in hindsight I think better for that alone.

I will be changing the alternator pulley to 3/8" and de-rating it to 80% with the ext regulator.
The Balmar 621-100-SR-IG comes with an internal regulator and a clever way to make use of it in the event the external regulator fails; I've labelled it as Regulator Selection Switch.  It's a double throw switch with no "off" position and I believe I should shut the engine down before switching it.

The MC-614 External Voltage Regulator also has a warning function if one chooses to add a few more bits.  Pin 17 goes to ground if the system experiences Low charging voltage (<12.5V), high charging voltage (>15.5V), high alternator temperature (>105degC), or high battery temperature (>52degC).  Max current for all warning devices on that line is 500 mA, so I'll be putting in a 1 Amp fuse with a tiny LED warning light and buzzer (total 40 mA).  I know this effort is overkill but it's not tough and I like doing this kind of stuff.  In fact I left out of the diagram a test switch set-up that allows me to test the warning and/or shut it off if I choose.

I do realize that my shore charger with only 30 amps is underpowered for this set-up but I can live with that until it dies.

The last things I'll be doing are confirming with ProMariner and Balmar about my "Sense" inputs.  I think the ext regulator is looking for what the batteries require here, so I suspect that's what the ProIsoCharger would provide through the Sense terminal.
Then ordering some wire from GenuineDeals and doing the install.

Very excited about this and especially the SmartGauge.

Any further comments or suggestions are welcome, and thanks again to everyone.

I'll report back when it's done with images of the install and process.

Steve

When I first got the boat, I thought it weird that the tank wasn't really well secured, so I took a bit of aluminum from a old step guard (you know the piece you might put at the top of your stairs that is very durable and less likely to slip on).

I cut a piece of that and secured it to the plywood to prevent the aft part of tank from moving.  Heck even a few inches of old hockey stick would've worked, no one sees it.

Don't think it was required, but I felt good about it at the time. :)

Just in case it interests you.

Steve

How 'bout putting your finger over the end and lifting the hose up to the fuel level and taping it there until you are done?

Shove a golf tee in the end?

I don't remember bothering to shut the valve in the past, but what do I remember anyway.

Steve

It's in there pretty snug.  3 sides supported by 3 or more inches of fiberglass and the forward section is against the plywood panel.  It's not going anywhere.  I wouldn't do anything different with it.

Steve

I'd second the rotary tool.

Oh, and in that case you may want to be prepared for some serious dust, a shop vac while doing it certainly helps.

When I did my microwave surround I just used screws and washers from the back side so I didn't have to muck about with plugs.  Just be sure the screws aren't too long.  Doesn't work in all applications (galley drawer frames are inaccessible on the outboard side) but where it does work I'd do it every time.

Steve

Great thread guys, and I think you cleared up my concern for Paul.

I'm usually the last one to jump on the technology train, heck I still have a pre-flip-phone.  But when doing the first part of my upgrade I really wanted to leave options open that's why I went with the XC3012 and ProIsoCharge each with 3 outputs, dreaming one day of a windlass, and with the possibility of mixed types of batteries.
Since then I've been more than convinced that the standard pattern you guys are following is the best.  And I'll totally agree that Lead Acid all around is best.

I've had 3 seasons on my XC3012 and ProIsoCharger and until this next phrase jinxes me, they've been great.  I do appreciate the insights on the XC MaineSail, I think I read about their poor performance / reliability a few years back and wasn't surprised to hear that they were discontinued. (I don't know what Paul has for shore charger that's why I piped up here in the first place)

Here's where I first asked about the ProIsoCharger.... http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6212.0.html
And here in Canada it cost the exact same as the Echo Charger, so with my XC3012 it was a no-brainer.

Stu, excellent pick-up on the different types of isolators.  You got my attention earlier because I remember the ProIsoCharger was touted as being a no-loss device, and I believe it to be so.

As for location of the Start Battery, that does become a very individualized decision.  I love mine under the aft cabin; I don't even look at it during our rather short sailing season so its location is no big deal (further aft and stbd makes me happy too).  Also I'm now going to 4 x 6volts for my House Bank, and unless I'm mistaken there is not enough room in the standard battery box for those plus a dedicated Start Battery.  If a guy's got to put it elsewhere anyway, why not in some otherwise unused space in the boat.

Obviously that's a person preference, but I've found the only time I actually remember to use it is after my counter is full of crap, and I'm thinking "damn, I wish I had more counter space!".  Then that extra little square foot puts a big smile on my face.

I'm wondering if the answer to OP is that simple?

Does it not also depend on what type of shore charger he uses and if he has a mix of types of batteries on board (LA, AGM, or Gel)?

When I did my stage 1 upgrade (trying to leave as many options open as I could) I went with a multi-output charger capable of charging different types of batteries as well; and if I did have a mix of types (LA, AGM, or Gel) they would need to be hooked up individually to outputs (no crossover).  At that time I read an interesting article about ACRs and how they may affect charging of multi-bank systems.  http://www.bluesea.com/resources/94

If the OP has a single output, and according to the article above, even a multi-output simple charger it seems the EchoCharger is excellent.  If by chance he happens to have a charger such as the Xantrex XC3012, he may need to put in a relay to shut down the EchoCharger while alongside.  No?

As an aside, I know many on this site have bashed the Battery Isolators for their principle of operation (fair enough), but I'm wondering if they have any reputation for poor reliability?

[R]

Read The Manual, with a Friendly expletive  

Cliff, unfortunately I think you've got some big decisions ahead of you.  Sounds like you have the factory set-up on your boat.

A couple quick things first....
- Ground connection – excellent place to start
- Terminal ends are certainly a good thing to check, but personally with the age of our boats, it's probably not a bad time for an upgrade anyway
- I will politely disagree with Clagr with respect to the Glow Plug Solenoid helping your engine turn over better; the Glow Plug Solenoid upgrade is an excellent idea, but it will not improve cranking of your starter at all (and I think that's what you are really looking for here).  It will certainly get more juice to your Glow Plugs and help the engine fire up more easily, but doesn't help the starter motor.
- Increasing wire size will help turn that motor over better.  There are many charts around describing voltage loss over a given run for varying cable sizes, and our factory run is very long so it is significant.
- I've also pulled my starter motor and cleaned up the commutator as has worked in many cars I've owned, but in the end the wire run is a much bigger factor so it was pretty much a waste of time.

In my opinion, the simplest and least expensive solution for you is to
- check the existing ground and terminal ends
- double up (add another 4 gauge wire to the existing paths for the starter, battery-to-switch, switch-to-starter and the appropriate negative as well)  I experimented with this before committing to my full-blown electrical upgrade and it worked very well.
- doubling up can be challenging to get wires through and it will get a little messy in there so I'd be more apt to replace it with new, heavier gauge wire than doubling up.

From there the solutions step up through many permutations to some pretty expensive options.
- Glow Plug Solenoid
- Dedicated Start Battery, some will call and use it as a Reserve
- Varying levels of Shore Chargers
- Combiner, or some method of topping up your Start Battery while underway. (I use a ProIsoCharger, but the combiner is great too)
- Battery Monitor
- Alternator upgrade
- External Alternator Regulator
- Bigger House Bank

How much money have you got?  

If you're not spending too much time on the hook and want to keep it inexpensive, I think I'd just recommend bigger wires and following the guy's advice wrt the 1-2-both switch and wiring the alternator directly to the House Bank.  If your engine then turns over really well but doesn't light off quickly enough for you, the Glow Plug Solenoid is a good next step.

Stu and the guys have put together tonnes of great information, so you've got lots of reading ahead of you if you want to ensure a good decision.

Just my thoughts.

Steve

I was thinking the same thing Stu, but it has a built in alarm and I'm not sure one would be able to hear it when tucked away.  It does allow for the installation of an external alarm, but that just complicates things again.  I need to keep it simple.

Maybe someone can come up with a decent looking sticker to put over it!

Hey hey hey, who you calling weird!

Yeah, I totally agree, but the only place I almost called it a Combiner was in my first narrative (I mean heck, it's even labelled in the schematic with ProIsocharger and part number).

And don't start on me about naming the terminals on my 1-2-both switch either..... simple guys like me need pretty pictures that make sense. 

Thanks again for all your help.

Frederick, I'm with you and MaineSail, it is not an attractive unit, looks like the designer had his kid do it.  But..... sure seems to be the right device.  What a great article by MaineSail.

I'm convinced on both the Smart Gauge and MC-614-H and now just deciding on an alternator.  Man the cost adds up quickly... even before batteries.

I think we're going to have to rename the thing a BOAFT, Bring Out Another FEW Thousand.

Stu, have another look at the schematic, the 1-2-both is always set to "off" or "1" (as graphically displayed earlier) so there is no connection through there from the starter to the House Bank Positive Buss Bar.  The Line at the Starter Buss Bar comes from the ProIsoCharger, there is no direct connection between those buss bars (remember the ProIsoCharger is not a Combiner).  Or..... am I missing something?

Great write-up on that Smart Gauge.  Although admittedly your testing is way over my head!   

In my infancy of research, I had no idea of the maintenance / update requirement for the shunt-type monitors, thank you for that too.

Given the Victron 602 is selling often over $200US I think this unit is worth the extra cash.

I'm guessing longevity will be good as well, given the manufacturer?