Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: Breakin Away on November 13, 2016, 07:20:27 AM

Title: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Breakin Away on November 13, 2016, 07:20:27 AM
I'm having a hard time finding Rotella T 15-40. I found a couple quart bottles in stock, but so far not enough of them to fill the motor. Can't find gallons, except at West Marine ($27/gallon, more than double the commodity retailers).

I am finding lots of gallon bottles of Rotella T4 (but can't find quart bottles of it  :? ). T4 seems to be a "new and improved" version. No sign that it's synthetic.

There is no sign of Rotella T on Shell's website, just T1 (straight grade, not multi grade), T4, T5 (synthetic), and T6 (synthetic):

http://rotella.shell.com/products.html

Searching here on "Rotella T4" generates no hits, so this would appear to be a new topic, and thus worthy of discussion.

It looks to me like Shell has realigned their product line to eliminate Rotella T and replaced it with "new and improved" T4.

How does this match up with your guys' experience? Do I really need to go out and get fleeced for an oil that I won't be able to top off next summer after the supply chain has exhausted its inventory?
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Breakin Away on November 13, 2016, 07:25:29 AM
Just found another page on Shell's website. Looks like there is an imminent product realignment, and Rotella T just might be discontinued at some point, to be replaced with T4:

http://rotella.shell.com/products/triple-protection-plus-technology.html

Quote
INTRODUCING THE NEXT EVOLUTION OF HARDWORKING PROTECTION

Shell ROTELLA® is proud to announce a change to our hardworking portfolio of heavy duty diesel engine oils. We wanted to create the most technically advanced Shell ROTELLA® formulation ever. And we did. We also aimed to clearly organize our portfolio so you knew which oil to choose.

As the technology behind Shell Rotella evolves, the hard work that drives us always stays the same. Introducing the new, Shell Rotella T4 Triple Protection®

Our new CK-4-ready Shell Rotella T4 Triple Protection and Shell Rotella T5 Synthetic Blend are already on the market and our expanded portfolio launches in December 2016 when API CK-4 and FA-4 licensing begins.

A new design to help make your hard work easier. Be on the lookout for these new Shell ROTELLA® bottles to arrive beginning this fall at a store near you.
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Ron Hill on November 13, 2016, 12:14:27 PM
Break : Have you looked at Walmart?
 I have always bought my Mobile One synthetic Diesel at Walmart.

A thought

Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Breakin Away on November 13, 2016, 12:32:31 PM
Yes, I have checked at 4 local Walmart stores. Some stores have no Rotella T or T4 - only T1, T5, and T6. The ones that have it have T4 by the gallon (no quarts) and quarts of T (no gallons). I think they are in the middle of a transition, trying to get rid of the Rotalla T quarts before the fill the pipeline with Rotella T4 quarts.

I've decided I'm going with T4, and bought two gallons. I'll probably fill an empty quart bottle to meet ongoing top-off needs, but only after I fix the other issues mentioned on another thread.

I suspect that there's no problem inter-mixing T4 and T, but why risk it? I'm going to avoid the discontinued stuff just in case.
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: KWKloeber on November 13, 2016, 03:09:18 PM
My nearby Home Depots have T4 quarts.

-kk
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: KWKloeber on November 14, 2016, 11:15:08 AM
Here's a really crazy thought -- go to your Kb dealer and get Kb brand (recommended) oil. 
$
4.50 / qt,;  $18 / gal.

(http://www.messicks.com/services/imageview.ashx?seq=0&ven=&img=&id=18690&thumbnail=False&w=0&watermark=True&hideIfEmpty=False)

-kk
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Breakin Away on November 14, 2016, 02:42:21 PM
I'd consider it if the dealers were closer and had hours that wouldn't require me leaving work. For a commodity like oil, I'll buy the refiners brand - which, as you know, is the same thing that Kubota does. I'll eventually find quart bottles, since I have a bunch of Home Depots and Walmarts within 10 miles of my house, and I drop by there for many other things anyway.
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Jeff Kaplan on November 14, 2016, 03:04:14 PM
With such a short season in New England, I have always used Chevron Delo 400  SAE 30W.  You really only need a multi viscosity oil is your boat is in the water most of the year and have several temp. changes.  A multi visc  15W-40 means that it thins down to 10W in cold weather and thickens up to 40W in hot weather.  I have never had any problems using straight weight oil. If you want to stick with Shell Rotella, which by the way is great oil,I used to sell it to the fleets,  check truck stops, heavy duty truck parts stores, and most truck dealers, Mack, I/H, Freightliner,Peterbilt, KW, ect. sell Shell Rotella, 1gal or 5 gal. containers.
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Stu Jackson on November 14, 2016, 07:15:24 PM
I disagree.  I just shopped for the oil in my new home in BC. $57 for 5 liters of Good oil vs $18 for Dino oil.  No problem at all with that choice.  Search Dino here.  Synthetic ain't all that great.
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Breakin Away on November 14, 2016, 08:23:52 PM
I also disagree on a couple of points. First, multigrade oils don't really "thicken up" at higher temperatures. All oils thin down at higher temperatures, but multigrade thins down less than single grade. So a 15W40 oil will be as thin as 15W single grade at low temperature, and as thin as 40W single grade at high temperature. It's still thinner at high temperature, just not as thin as a 15W would be at high temperature.

Also, the motor's operating temperature is the same in all weather. It's all about cold starts, and how quickly oil gets to all the moving parts when starting cold. So in shoulder season, when you may be starting up at temps as low as 40F in the morning, a multigrade oil will protect your engine better because it's thinner at cold temperature than a heavier single grade. My feeling is that if it's cold enough that you need glow plugs, then you may need multigrade oil.

But take all this with a grain of salt. I'm no expert - I just play on on TV.   :D
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Stu Jackson on November 15, 2016, 06:22:06 AM
The M25 engine manual says:

Above 77F   SAE 30

32F to 77F   SAE 20

Below 32F    SAE 10 or SAE 10W-30

There may be a similar note in the M35 series engine manuals, it would be helpful to look.

That said, there have been many discussions here about the use of synthetic vs. dinosaur engine oil.  A simple search would turn up most of them.  The issue raised about synthetic oils revolves around the seals, notably for the oil pan.  I tried synthetic years and years ago and evidenced some minor weeping at the drain pan where there had been none before, so I went back to dino oil.  I've been using 15W-40 for the past five years.

Now that I am in a cooler environment, still have had no issues starting our engine.  I installed the solenoid on our starting circuit and only need to hold the glow plugs for 12-15 seconds. 

Please remember that this is for our M25 engine.

Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Breakin Away on November 15, 2016, 07:16:35 AM
I had checked the manual. The latest edition of Westerbeke's Operator Manual, which covers all B series models, recommends 15W40 for everything. No mention is made of single grade.

I am very surprised to hear of any recommendation for single grade 10W or 20W oil. Those may lubricate quickly enough upon initial startup in cold temperatures, but I would think they're way too thin once the motor gets to operating temperature, especially for an older motor.

I have little interest in synthetic oil for something that gets as little use as a sailboat auxiliary power application.
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: kwaltersmi on November 15, 2016, 07:43:44 AM
I had checked the manual. The latest edition of Westerbeke's Operator Manual, which covers all B series models, recommends 15W40 for everything. No mention is made of single grade.

Agreed. I've been using Rotella T 15W-40 from day 1 and hope to do so, so long as I can still find it.
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Stu Jackson on November 15, 2016, 07:58:56 AM
I had checked the manual. The latest edition of Westerbeke's Operator Manual, which covers all B series models, recommends 15W40 for everything. No mention is made of single grade.

I am very surprised to hear of any recommendation for single grade 10W or 20W oil. Those may lubricate quickly enough upon initial startup in cold temperatures, but I would think they're way too thin once the motor gets to operating temperature, especially for an older motor.

I have little interest in synthetic oil for something that gets as little use as a sailboat auxiliary power application.

Thanks for posting that excerpt.  Good info for M35 skippers.  And a good reminder.

Your surprise may be mitigated by the simple "March of Time."  :D  Some of us are old enough to remember the days before multi-viscosity oil.  We'd use a thinner oil in the winter in our cars.

Remember that the M25 engines were designed and built a long time ago.  There is a link somewhere (I'll try to find it) about the history of the Universal engines, maybe it's on the Kubota website.  But these tractor engines were in use well before they were stuffed into our sailboats!  :D

I believe the "argument" for and against synthetic oil may have less to do with hours of use than it does for cost.  Why spend twice as much for something that even the manufacturers didn't originally recommend?  New car manufacturers may recommend synthetic oil for their automobiles, but the tractor builders don't or didn't.

Your boat, your choice.  :D
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: KWKloeber on November 15, 2016, 08:03:48 AM
What's date manuals are you guys looking at?  Op manual? or Service man?

Below is from manuals on the Wb site (presumably the most recent?). 
Please let me know if you have newer one so I can post on the Wiki.

2010 M-25XPB, M-35B/40B Operator's Manual:

CF, CG-4, or CI-4

Above 68F (20C)       SAE 30 or 10W-30
41F to 68F (5-20C)   SAE 20 or 10W-30
Below 41F (5C)         SAE 10W-30

2001 M-25XPB, M-35B/40B Service Manual:

CF or CG-4
10-30, 10W-30, 15W-40 (no reference at all to temps.)

Note that it's not unusual for Wb to publish conflicting or incomplete info, or not update out of date manuals.

-kk
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Breakin Away on November 15, 2016, 08:14:13 AM
Thanks for posting that excerpt.  Good info for M35 skippers.  And a good reminder.

Your surprise may be mitigated by the simple "March of Time."  :D  Some of us are old enough to remember the days before multi-viscosity oil.  We'd use a thinner oil in the winter in our cars.

Remember that the M25 engines were designed and built a long time ago.  There is a link somewhere (I'll try to find it) about the history of the Universal engines, maybe it's on the Kubota website.  But these tractor engines were in use well before they were stuffed into our sailboats!  :D

I believe the "argument" for and against synthetic oil may have less to do with hours of use than it does for cost.  Why spend twice as much for something that even the manufacturers didn't originally recommend?  New car manufacturers may recommend synthetic oil for their automobiles, but the tractor builders don't or didn't.

Your boat, your choice.  :D
Fully agree on all points. I recognize that the single grade recommendations may reflect the legacy oil availability at the time of printing of the manual.

Cost is definitely a big factor. Synthetic oil lasts a long time, so there is an argument to just replace the filter. But there are still a lot of combustion contaminants dumped into the oil over time (especially in a diesel), and many of those don't get filtered out. Intuitively I just think it's better to replace the oil, especially since sailboat motors accumulate hours slower than motorboats and cars.

Ken - The snapshot I posted is from the same 2010 operators manual that you quoted. And you are right, in a different section of that same manual there is conflicting information that does mention single grade oil. (Sorry I had missed that before.) Interestingly, it also says this: "Oil change intervals must be as listed in the MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE section in this manual and not be extended if synthetic oils are used." So use of synthetic oils becomes a very expensive proposition, in addition to the seal compatibility issues that Stu mentioned.

If you're updating the wiki, you might also update the engine section, which does not mention M35 or M35B as models that were used in the C34. Thanks for your updates! Sorry to create so much work for you.
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Jeff Kaplan on November 15, 2016, 08:19:01 AM
I stand corrected in that I stated that in hot weather the oil thickens up, correctly as the engine temp rises to normal, 210 degrees, the oil, thru the use of additives, does bring the oil viscosity up equaling a straight weight oil.  As I did mention, in cold weather, 40 degrees of lower, a multi visc oil is recommended, as it will thin out so lubrication is made. In Boston our season is usually over by mid October, so no real cold starts, that's why a straight weight is acceptable.  And as I mentioned, Shell Rotella is the standard for trucking fleets.
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: KWKloeber on November 15, 2016, 08:22:17 AM
Stu, some info.

http://catalina30.com/TechLib/Engines/History%20of%20the%20Universal%20Motor%20Company.txt

http://www.shadowmagic3d.com/BlackSwan/5uh.html

https://austinfrederick.wordpress.com/2014/03/15/universal-motor-company-oshkosh-wis/

kk

Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: KWKloeber on November 15, 2016, 08:34:59 AM
Quote

Ken - The snapshot I posted is from the same 2010 operators manual that you quoted. And you are right, in a different section of that same manual there is conflicting information that does mention single grade oil.

Interestingly, it also says this: "Oil change intervals must be as listed in the MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE section in this manual and not be extended if synthetic oils are used." So use of synthetic oils becomes a very expensive proposition, in addition to the seal compatibility issues that Stu mentioned.

If you're updating the wiki, you might also update the engine section, which does not mention M35 or M35B as models that were used in the C34.


Synthetic (15 yrs ago I used to use it, no longer) - not my opinion but from 'lube experts" that have posted articles, is not the best for marine diesel engines -- unlike truck and auto engines.  Stu is correct.  There's conflicting info, why take a chance? dino's been around longer than I've been.  Y'alls Boat, Y'alls Choice.

Wiki - Go for it.  It's "everyone's" to edit/update/modify. 
I simply wanted to replace a manual if I uploaded an old version.

-cheers
kk
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Indian Falls on November 24, 2016, 08:36:13 AM
Tractor Supply, Farm and Fleet and Advance Auto Parts all have multiple grades of Rotella.
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Breakin Away on November 25, 2016, 10:29:02 PM
I've been dropping by every auto place I can find looking for T4 in quarts. Was at AutoZone and Advance Auto on Wednesday, Pep Boys today. It's the same everywhere - around here they all have Rotella T4 in gallons, and Rotella T in quarts (or no quarts of T or T4). Absolutely nobody around here has Rotella T4 in quarts.

My oil change will will be done tomorrow (unless something goes wrong), followed immediately by winterization. In the unlikely event that I need more than 4 quarts to finish the job, I'll have to open a second gallon of Rotella T4.

I think that Shell is in the middle of their changeover from T to T4, and their distribution channel has lots of quarts of Rotella T to get rid of before they start selling T4 in quarts.
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Jim Hardesty on November 26, 2016, 05:11:59 AM
You should be fine with a gallon.  As long as the oil level is between the marks it's good.  I would caution about adding too much oil.  Does no good and may be a problem.  FWIW I add Lucas to my oil.  I think it helps during lay-up and at engine starts.
Jim
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Breakin Away on December 23, 2016, 06:09:11 PM
Just to close the loop on this topic, my local retailers have started carrying quart size of Rotella T4. It now is available around here as gallons and quarts. Rotella T is scarce and becoming scarcer, and will completely disappear shortly.

Do not buy Rotella T1 (unless for some reason you want a single grade viscosity) -- the replacement product for Rotella T is Rotella T4.
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Roc on December 25, 2016, 12:16:16 PM
If I remember correctly, my Universal manual states to use straight 30 weight oil.
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: pablosgirl on December 25, 2016, 05:42:27 PM
My local Walmart is selling the T4 for the same price they sold the Rotela T. 13.99$ gallon.  So looks like they are not outing a premium on the synthetic.
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Breakin Away on December 25, 2016, 07:26:33 PM
T4 is regular multi-grade Dino oil. Not synthetic. Synthetics are T5 and T6.
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Breakin Away on November 03, 2017, 07:52:19 PM
Quick update since I posted last year:

I did my annual oil change yesterday, using Rotella T4 15W40. I had no problem finding a gallon bottle of the stuff. However, just like last year, none of the local stores had T4 in quart bottles. They're still selling the now-discontinued Rotella T in quart bottles.
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: KWKloeber on November 03, 2017, 09:23:19 PM
As I've posted before, your local dealer has Kubota brand, both single and multi grade, in quarts, pure dino, not synthetic or blend.  Recommended by the Kb dealers.  From what I've seen, the Kb dealers price it a little lower then Shell.

kk
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Breakin Away on November 04, 2017, 09:20:57 AM
Hi Ken, I decided last year to go with Rotella T4 dino oil, which has a large following. I'm just posting an update on local availability of quart quantities for the benefit of others. A gallon was fine for me this year, because I have extra left over from last year.

I'm not interested in switching to Kubota at this point, because I'd have to get rid of the extra Rotella that I'm carrying. But I agree, the gallon price is only a few dollars more than Rotella.

For next year I would be interested in using a Kubota oil filter instead of Universal's #300209 repainted version that I for this oil change. This cross reference chart shows 9 different Kubota part numbers. Any clue which one is preferred?

http://www.oilfilter-crossreference.com/convert/UNIVERSAL/300209
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: KWKloeber on November 04, 2017, 12:23:44 PM
hmmmm... not offhand, but look at the parts manual for the cousin Kb tractor block for the M35B that I posted in the techwiki manuals.  The filter should be in there.   99-44/100% sure it's the same filter as for the M35/a, M25XPB, M25XP, or M25.

That list is probably a huge number of old part numbers.  So, go to messicks.com plug into the Kb parts search with that p/number.  There may be a newer p/n than the p/n in the parts manual, but Messicks always lists both the predecessors and those that supersede.

I use Fleetguard fuel and lube filters, recommended by my Kubota heavy equipment dealer over the Kb filters.

lube:
Fleetguard   LF3462
Fram    PH3593A
Purolater   L14459

fuel:
Fleetguard   FF5226
Fram   P7514,  C6921

I believe that the above are the same for all the B-series Kubotas as well.

ken

For next year I would be interested in using a Kubota oil filter instead of Universal's #300209 repainted version that I for this oil change. This cross reference chart shows 9 different Kubota part numbers. Any clue which one is preferred?

http://www.oilfilter-crossreference.com/convert/UNIVERSAL/300209
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Ron Hill on November 04, 2017, 01:17:28 PM
Breaking : Have you looked at Walmart for your Rotella?  I believe that I've seen it there when I get a gal of Mobile 1 diesel. 

A thought
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: KWKloeber on November 04, 2017, 01:58:35 PM
local availability of quart quantities for the benefit of others.

I'm not interested in switching to Kubota at this point, because I'd have to get rid of the extra Rotella that I'm carrying. But I agree, the gallon price is only a few dollars more than Rotella.


Amazon carries T-4 10W-40 / 6 qts for 35.58.

Mark

Are you saying that Kubota 15W-40 dino wouldn't be compatible with T-4 15W-40?

k
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: Breakin Away on November 04, 2017, 04:02:14 PM
Breaking : Have you looked at Walmart for your Rotella?  I believe that I've seen it there when I get a gal of Mobile 1 diesel. 
I bought my gallon of T4 15w40 at my local Walmart this time, about $14. They didn't have it in quarts, but I didn't really want any more than a gallon anyway.

I was at Pep Boys shortly afterwards looking for other stuff and noticed they had gallons for $19. But they did not have T4 in quart size, only T, which was discontinued over a year ago.

This is only for info of others, I've already done my oil change for this year. The boat is on the hard, winterized, and putting the winter cover on tomorrow.
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: KWKloeber on August 18, 2019, 08:55:45 PM
Update - I got an email friday from worst marine -- who is apparently now? carrying a full line of Rotella oils.  Unsure if this is something new or longstanding?

T4, as well as T (strange?)
T4 is comparable to auto parts prices, but "T" comes with an application to raise your credit card limit in order to afford it.
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: mainesail on August 20, 2019, 04:50:25 AM
Our local Wal*Mart..

Rotella 15W-40 Quarts = $4.88
(https://pbase.com/mainecruising/image/169656778.jpg)

Rotella T1 Single Weight SAE 30 = $3.91 quart
Rotella T4 15W-40 = $3.37 quart
Rotella T6 Synthetic 5W-40 = $4.99 quart
(https://pbase.com/mainecruising/image/169656779.jpg)

Delo 15W-40 = $3.45 quart
(https://pbase.com/mainecruising/image/169656780.jpg)

Oh and this just happened a few weeks ago...
(https://pbase.com/mainecruising/image/169656781.jpg)
I can now do a full synthetic oil change on our Toyota's for about $30.00, with a genuine Toyota oil filter...

Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: mark_53 on August 20, 2019, 10:25:40 AM
If my recollection serves me universal engine manual calls for 10-40 or or straight 30 weight. Why do I care about any specific brand?  It all comes from the same place.  I've been using generic 10-40 from O'Reily's without any problems for years. It makes no difference.  All marketing hype.
Title: Re: Rotella T vs. T4
Post by: KWKloeber on August 21, 2019, 02:21:32 PM
I've been using generic 10-40 from O'Reily's without any problems for years. It makes no difference.  All marketing hype.

I didn’t think O’R branded a mono-grade or 10-40 diesel dino.
At least mine doesn’t and the web doesn’t list it.