Just got my first estimate for dodger, bimini and connector replacement. The canvas guy said a little over $6,000. I've not used him before (or any other canvas maker) but he comes highly recommended by power boaters at out yacht club. I'm getting another local quote but wanted to get an idea what others pay.
Is this price in line?
Thanks,
Jim
Hi,
For sure it will cost you a fortune, it is for a boat :D
But seriously, it is in the price range.
When you get different quote, don't just compare price, but the type of material and it's gage ( thickness ) used by them. This make a good price difference.
That seems like a lot to me. We paid in the range of $4K for our similar canvas replacement but it was a couple of years ago. For that price, I would make sure they are using fabric similar to Seamark (Sunbrella with an extra coating underneath for additional durability and water repellency), the upgraded thread and Makrolon for the windows (not Strataglass or similar clear vinyl, which does not last nearly as long).
You can likely find a better deal by using one of the larger non-local canvas shops and sending them your existing dodger, bimini and connector. I have a friend who did that and was very pleased both with the results and the cost savings. You do run the risk that something will not fit quite right and then you have to send it back to be fixed.
Whenever someone asks what something costs, I usually/always ask: "What is included?"
We need more info to even think about commenting about the validity of any price.
For example: Does it include the ss tubing and, if so, what size & gauge? We don't know if you're just doing the canvas, a rebuild, new glazing...
Please help us to help you.
Stu,
That was for only the canvas. Sumbrella with Stratiglass the best thread, etc. I'm happy with what I have, it's just 15 years old and showing it's age. It looks like so many other dodger/bimini I wonder if it was a factory option. Do you think a call to the factory would worth it? Or would it not fit right? This will be the first time for me buying canvas work. Don't know much about it.
Jim
Jim
For just canvas I would say that is a lot. I bought a bimini, frame and all from Catalina Direct 2 yrs ago for about $1000. Then had a new dodger made locally, ss tubing, strataglass, connector to the bimini. I think it cost around $4000 and the guy I use is known for being high, but he does good work.
Jim : Now you know why I had a summer cover made to keep the dodger (and teak) out of the hot sun!!
I saw no sense in the UV eating up everything while the boat was parked!!
A thought
Jim, if it was me, I would get competitive quotes from JSI in Florida and a competitor like the Canvas Store. JSI may have done your canvas originally - Catalina outsourced a lot of their canvas work to them over the years. You may even look to see if you have a JSI tag on your dodger. A friend had his canvas replaced by the Canvas Store over the winter and they did a great job at two-thirds the cost of a local quote. He mailed his original canvas to them and got the replacement back in a month. Obviously, not a possibility if you also are replacing the tubing. I had a winter cover made by the Canvas Store and they did a great job.
I would seriously consider upgrading from Strataglass to Makrolon or something similar. We had a Strataglass window shatter after only three years of use when a sheet snapped against it in cold weather. A local vendor told me that Strataglass gets very brittle with age. It also is more prone to scratching than a competitive product like Makrolon.
I was quoted a price of $5500 for a new dodger, bimini and complete enclosure by a local canvas guy.
For a little more than that we had the dodger and Bimini replaced, with new frame, plus enclosure, two to years ago. For just canvass, even installed is pricey. IMHO
We paid $4500 for new dodger ,connector, bimini and zib in stern sunshade with all new framing and dodger hand holds 3 or 4 years ago.
Rick,
Who did the work? I assume it was around Lake Erie.
Jim
Jim,
Rick Ball out of Port Clinton did the work 937-478-4434. He did a great job however I had to wait almost a year for him to start as he was in high demand. I spoke to him the other day and he is doing more AC and frig work as it is better profit per hour. If you want to see his work our Boat is at Herls Harbor #619 on Catawba Port Clinton . Note my wife made the enclosure.
Unlike many things on a boat canvas work is an "arts" trade. Most canvas work is of absurdly low caliber and can severyly detract from the aesthetics of the vessel. Sad but true.
Canvas is also one of the ares where you as a buyer need to 150% do your home work and compare apples to apples. There are LOTS and LOTS of ways to cut corners on canvas work, and most will do that, unless you go in with a very, very specific specification. A good canvas job can easily last 12-18 years and a bad canvas job can be toast in 4-5 years...
Thread - Do not accept anything less than WL Gore Tenera. If your canvas guy balks at this you WALK. Tenara is not easy to work with and only the best canvas guys will be extremely proficient with it.
Tubing - Only heavy walled (.065" min) 316 SS tube should be used. Lots of shops will substitute crappy 304 thin wall. It makes it extremely difficult to atttain a proper fit and shape with thin walled tube.
Windows - Strataglass or equivalent at a bare minimum but preferably EZ2CY or Makrolon double sided abrasion resistant...
Fittings - 100% 316 SS. Double set screw types are preferred but most will source the cheaper single set screw product.
Zipper - While these don't sound glorious there are differences and many unscrupulous shops will use cheap non UV zippers in place of YKK UV or Lenzip UV resistant zippers.
Support Struts - These are very, very good options to go with. Front bow supports keep tension on the window and prevent creases, sagging etc. and also hold shape. A good shop will always use adjustable eye ends so proper tension can be maintained for the life of the product. Coaming struts come from the aft bow to the cockpit coaming and aft tension the dodger. Again these will use adjustable eye ends.
Snaps, Lift-A-Dots, Twist Locks or Luff Track - To get the optimal canvas shape the preferred method of attaching the dodger to the deck, on the cabin top, is to use luff track. This gives even tension across the entire window and prevents creases in the glass and canvas.
Zip Off Side Curtains - This type of dodger is often referred to as a "California" style. They allow open air access without needing to "fold" the canvas. Folding canvas is the absorlute worst thing you can do for it. A good design eliminates the need to fold. We have NEVER ONCE folded, or needed to remove, any of our custom made dodgers. A good canvas guy will make you a fleece lined storage back so teh window can remain flat, never rolled, and store under a berth cushion when not in use.
Fully articulating middle front window - A good canvas guy can make a middle window that folds 180 degrees and lays flat on-top of the dodger when open. Again no rolling & no potential for scratches. A budget shop will give you a roll up window...
Welded Grab Bar - Another nice feature is a welded grab rail across the aft bow. To take it up a notch baseball stitched leather covering... Expensive but also very time consuming to fabricate, weld and polish.
Suede or Stamoid Reinforcement points - In areas of high hand touching suede or Stamoid will be used.
Custom vs. Pattern - Hands down a custom made dodger, by a good canvas guy, will win every time but will also be more expensive. Why is custom so expensive?
Trip #1 - Meet with owner and discuss needs and use and make suggestions and offer options and pros and cons. Take initial measurements then head back to shop to manufacturer, bend and crown the frame. A good guy will match the crown and cabin rake of your your boats profiles. A hack will use what ever radius he likes to use.
Trip#2 - Show up with frame and mount frame. Pattern for canvas. If too windy this requires another trip.
Trip #3 - Return to vessel with dodger, & bimini, if so ordered, and install. If fit is not absolutely perfect it goes back to the shop for some tweaking.
Trip #4 - Install canvas and fit dodger and bimini to perfection. A good bimini or dodger will NOT use straps to hold it up or tension it. A low budget job uses straps. Floppy loose fitting canvas wears and degrades faster!! Pattern for connector and side curtains, if so ordered. This step CAN NOT be done with any level of quality until the bimini and dodger have been fitted, tensioned and installed.
Trip #5 - GO back to shop and manufacture the connector and side curtains and or enclosure.
Trip #6 - Go back to boat and install, fit and tension connector and side curtains or enclosure.
A quality job, by a canvas artist, for a bimini, connector and dodger will consume in the neighborhood of 80+ man hours not including travel time. Quality materials are also not inexpensive....
Rant:
Our 2005 Catalina 310 had JSI factory canvas and, IMHO, it was a complete budget level substandard product.. It cost me $1400.00 in modifications (brand new boat mind you) to get it to a somewhat presentable quality and this included many hours of physical thread removal and re-stitching adding support struts etc. and even then the thread, windows and overall quality were barely up to budget level..... Rant off....
If you want to see some quality canvas work:
Iversons (http://www.iversonsdesign.com/index.html)
Mobile Marine Canvas (http://www.mobilecanvas.com/default.aspx)
With proper care a good quality product will LAST..
These are our windows as of this June at year 7..
(http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/150883321.jpg)
Mainesail,
Thanks for the canvas tutorial. Very much appreciated. Still have a couple of questions.
My existing canvas goes around the bows and to a zipper. No snaps into the stainless tubing. The canvas guys want to use snaps into the bows. To me this doesn't feel to be the best way. Is one way better than the other?
Do I understand you correctly that your front center window folds up over and stays on the top of the dodger?
I thought canvas replacement would be an simple job. One of the few things I don't want to do myself. Boy was I wrong :shock: need to learn so much.
Jim
Quote from: Jim Hardesty on September 22, 2015, 08:51:08 AM
Do I understand you correctly that your front center window folds up over and stays on the top of the dodger?
I thought canvas replacement would be an simple job. One of the few things I don't want to do myself. Boy was I wrong :shock: need to learn so much.
Jim
Jim,
Also talk to your maker about a removable front window (if you're doing a one-piece.) My guy did that for me on the c30.
You basically need to be a self educated expert on canvas jobs before you hire anyone (who may not know what they're doing.)
I disagree with MainSail -- I find that, unfortunately, you need to do that on
EVERYTHING :cry: you have someone do on the boat -- until you get to know your tradespeople and they prove that they deserve your trust and will do it correctly and to your liking. You'll know who is good and who isn't -- when you realize the tradesperson is asking the right questions of you up front. Never assume that the question wasn't asked because they already know the answer and have done it (correctly) before. Play dumb -- a good tradesperson has a passion and loves to educate their customer and demonstrate that they know what they're doing.
kk
Quote from: Jim Hardesty on September 22, 2015, 08:51:08 AM
Mainesail,
Thanks for the canvas tutorial. Very much appreciated. Still have a couple of questions.
My existing canvas goes around the bows and to a zipper. No snaps into the stainless tubing. The canvas guys want to use snaps into the bows. To me this doesn't feel to be the best way. Is one way better than the other?
Do I understand you correctly that your front center window folds up over and stays on the top of the dodger?
I thought canvas replacement would be an simple job. One of the few things I don't want to do myself. Boy was I wrong :shock: need to learn so much.
Jim
Snaps into the tubing?? It is pretty rare when I see that on a dodger and usually when I do it is a Band-Aid for a poor quality fit..
My front center window will fold under or over but I prefer over the top. I did have one on a previous boat that zipped out entirely too. The bottom line is that rolling or folding ruins canvas and especially destroys windows. On the Maine coast, with all the lobster pots, I consider our windows are a
safety item so good visibility and no scratches are of paramount design consideration..
Quote from: mainesail on September 23, 2015, 03:36:30 AM
Quote from: Jim Hardesty on September 22, 2015, 08:51:08 AM
Mainesail,
Snaps into the tubing?? It is pretty rare when I see that on a dodger and usually when I do it is a Band-Aid for a poor quality fit..
My front center window will fold under or over but I prefer over the top. I did have one on a previous boat that zipped out entirely too. The bottom line is that rolling or folding ruins canvas and especially destroys windows. On the Maine coast, with all the lobster pots, I consider our windows are a safety item so good visibility and no scratches are of paramount design consideration..
Hi
I do have snaps on my dodger frame. And not a band aid :shock: :D
The front section is in 3 pieces, side windows are fix and the center section can be rolled up. And the 2 sides of the dodger can be completelly removed. They have zippers on top and front side, and the snap is on the end of the zipper at the top.
Jim,
Unfortunately the quoted price doesn't seem too off base, assuming high quality components. We did a dodger last Spring with Seamark and Makralon windows, YYK zippers etc. Pretty much as Mainesail described. We had an existing frame, but since we wanted to raise the dodger about 6 inches we wound up extending one of the bows and rebuilding the other bow from scratch, as well as adding quick-release deck fittings. And since the height was different we needed a new dodger-bimini connector, and since we'd made other pieces that attached to the old dodger these had to be modified. And on and on ... you know how it goes. By the time we were done the job was around $4.5K. I've worked with a canvas guy in our area for about 12 years. He does good work but he's slow, and he keeps his cost down by working out of his house. I imagine if I'd had the job done by one the local shops it would have been a lot more.
On a related topic, is there any kind of protective application that prolongs the life of the dodger fabric? I see some on the market...has anyone used these? I think my fabric is Sunbrella.
Thanks,
Steve
IIRC, the only recommendation is 3M 303
I again agree with Stu, 303 works great. Would have replaced my canvas a couple of years ago. After a treatment with 303 the canvas looks much newer. More water proof too.
Jim
For background, I just posted some good information I had from 303 on the wiki.....
http://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Cockpit#Items_of_Interest
(Look down under "Items of Interest")
Stu feel free to move to somewhere else (if appropriate.)
Cheers,
Ken
Thanks all - great info.
Steve
There is another brand, Aerospace or something like that at West Marine that works well also. In either case you want to brush it on, using the spray bottle is not that effective. It will also damage plastic windows so careful around them.
Quote from: Ken Juul on September 30, 2015, 08:01:18 AM
There is another brand, Aerospace or something like that at West Marine that works well also. In either case you want to brush it on, using the spray bottle is not that effective. It will also damage plastic windows so careful around them.
Ken = Aerospace is what we're discussing -- 303 Aerospace fabric guard. If a couple want to go together on it, you can get an excellet price on a case from Autogeek.com.
YB, YC -- but I'm telling you I spent a lot of time with the techies at 303, and brushing is NOT recommended -- it is detrimental to the effectiveness of the waterproofing process --- you do not want to saturate the fabric, only spritz the top layer of the fabric strands.
But YB, YC.
k
Great thread...
My dodger has three snap on panels that protect the isinglass. They are a bit of a pain to snap on and don't keep the water from running under them and onto the isinglass which along with age has clouded it over the years.
On my next dodger (which is needed) I was thinking of opting for a full single cover. It might cost a little more up front but when it needs replacing in 10+ my dodger should still look like new.
Quote from: KWKloeber on September 30, 2015, 12:16:57 PM
Quote from: Ken Juul on September 30, 2015, 08:01:18 AM
There is another brand, Aerospace or something like that at West Marine that works well also. In either case you want to brush it on, using the spray bottle is not that effective. It will also damage plastic windows so careful around them.
Ken = Aerospace is what we're discussing -- 303 Aerospace fabric guard. If a couple want to go together on it, you can get an excellet price on a case from Autogeek.com.
YB, YC -- but I'm telling you I spent a lot of time with the techies at 303, and brushing is NOT recommended -- it is detrimental to the effectiveness of the waterproofing process --- you do not want to saturate the fabric, only spritz the top layer of the fabric strands.
But YB, YC.
k
303
Aerospace is
NOT 303
Fabric Guard. Please DO NOT confuse the two...
I use a small 1/2 gallon garden pump sprayer from Tractor Supply. It gives a beautiful even finish. Lightly mist, let dry & repeat. If you get any on the glass get it off immediately For the glass all I will use is IMAR Strataglass Protective Cleaner....
http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/groundwork-pump-sprayer-1-2-gal?cm_vc=-10005 (http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/groundwork-pump-sprayer-1-2-gal?cm_vc=-10005)
This is 303
Fabric Guard (green label) for use on Sunbrella:
(http://www.goldeagle.com/sites/default/files/styles/product_detail_main/public/303-Products-Fabric-Guard.png?itok=lNID21xf)
This is 303
Aerospace Protectant (blue label)
NOT for use on Sunbrella:
(http://www.goldeagle.com/sites/default/files/styles/product_detail_main/public/303-Products-Aerospace-Protectant_0.png?itok=kg4SN2zS)
What's a good way to protect the windows from overspray? I'm concerned with using painter's tape because the liquid will find it's way underneath and attack the windows.
I hold the spray gun in one hand a apiece of card board in the other. The card board blocks the overspray... If any does get on it a brand new microfiber rag and IMAR Strataglass Protective Cleaner and I keep going.....
Quote from: mainesail on October 02, 2015, 04:53:13 AM
303 Aerospace is NOT 303 Fabric Guard. Please DO NOT confuse the two... '[
MEA CULPA!!
Just to close the loop on this "precisely" -- I mistakenly said both 303s were labelled "Aerospace". Not so - I usually check mfgrs' website for such things, but this time went from memory (CRS). As RC said there's
* 303 High Tech Fabric Guard
* 303 Aerospace Protectant (kinda like ArmorAll, but containing with lots of UV shield.) I've used it after waxing and it does impart a nice shine and add additional UV protection on just about anything (NOT canvas though.)
kk
Does the Tractor Supply sprayer shoot a fan spray or a round (conical) spray. Asking because I have a piston sprayer (Ortho brand) that shoots a conical spray and wondering if a fan spray may be easier to do this job because you can sweep the canvas with the fan shape.
I'm having some screen panels made and need to choose between snaps and twist locks. Canvas guy says twist locks are better but more trouble (money) and leans toward snaps. Opinions welcome!
Whichever is selected, what's the proper way to attach them to the fiberglass to prevent leaking or damage downstream. (In a previous life, someone installed snap bases in a very substandard way so I want to make sure it's done right this time.
Mike : I don't know where you are mounting these screens?
What You need to decide is if the twist lock is going to protrude - be in the way and possibly be broken?
Your choice - A thought
Mike - When I redid my dodger a couple of years back I told my canvas guy to get rid of any and all snaps and replace them with the twist aka "common sense" fasteners. I have not regretted that decision. I always found snap fasteners a pain to re-fasten, especially if the canvas has been under even slight tension. This even with periodic lubrication.
If you do go with CS fasteners I'd ask your guy (gal?) about the double-height ones. These provide some flexibility later on if you decide to add additional pieces such as a temporary sunscreen. I never have had an issue with the addition height of CS fasteners over snaps.
I'm curious about the installation problem. I would drill out the hole for the screw, counter-sink it, and thread the fastener in slowly after applying some sealant to the threads. Twist in a turn, back off a half turn, then repeat until it's flush.
Thanks!
If the snap/twistlock is going to be mounted on fiberglass, then consider Snads from http://www.sailrite.com/search?keywords=snads (http://www.sailrite.com/search?keywords=snads)
Paul
Mike
Where are the panels going to be mounted against? That would make a difference between CS and snap fasteners. There's other options, for instance Lift-the-dot -- all have pluses and minuses..
When you say correct way to mount.... explain. To watertite the fasterner hole? or what?
Long ago a canvas guy screwed snaps into nothing but a thin outer gel/fglass shell that sits about 1/2" outside the actual f'glass substrate on a portion of my cockpit coming. There's nothing the screws were cutting into, except the 1/4? inch "shell." Naturally, eventually the tapping screws loosened/stripped/pulled out. If that's your situation I have a good fix, but won't go on and on about it unless that's your situation.
To waterproof them, defo countersinking and sealant (run out a small diameter string of butyl and wrap around the screw shaft under the snap head.) Or some have put an o-ring under the head.
ken
Guys : If you are going into fiberglass you can also use the "Push -the-dot" fasteners.
A thought
Jim,
$6K for dodger, Bimini and connector is not bad. We just had the dodger with cover done last year and it was almost $3500 with maktolon glass which is awesome. Our Bimini is 5 plus years old and was $3k plus but is larger than normal and taller. The connector a couple hundred. You definitely want sunbrella fabrics. We had a large window installed in Bimini to see the sail trim.
Brian
Hakuna Matata
2000 c34 MKII
San Diego
Brian-
Who did your canvas work?
Noah,
Jan Mitchell Canvas. He does great work. Has done work on Other C34 in San Diego as well. Not always the fastest but great work and very fussy and stands behind it if there is an issue. Will be at the boat next weekend if you want to check out the work.
Brian
Looking to add a Bimini to Pau Hana. Understand this is an old topic but I want to ask.
In San Diego, can anyone recommend a good shop?
I would need the tubes and the canvas and install.
I also have an adjustable back stay. Can that create problems?
How much can one expect to pay?
Kevin,
A good boat covers shop won't have any trouble working around your rigging, most boat covers are custom installations. One way to find a good covers maker is to take a walk around your marina and look at the boats(power boats too), most makers label their work. If you see a lot of one particular label it probably means they do good work for a reasonable price.
I used Whyte Cap Canvas Works in San Diego to replace a couple of pieces of canvas that had worn out recently. Peter did a good job for me and I feel like the price was fair. My dodger is about to wear out and, when I decide to replace it, I plan to get multiple estimates to compare prices, but I will definitely get an estimate from him.
https://www.yelp.com/biz/whyte-cap-canvas-works-san-diego-2
For what it is worth the canvas and dodger windows in post #13 still look and perform today in 2020 as they did back in 2015. The dodger & canvas are now 12 years old and are barely discernible from a brand new one.
Guys : I like to sail without looking thru the front dodger window (windshield). For years I has it zipped out and stored below and then zipped it in when rain or WX dictated. I never liked it exposed and rolled up.
I finally thought of leaving it zipped in on the top and pulling it underneath the dodge. It is protected and readily available to be zipped in on both sides. I made some shock cords the go around the back dodge grab bar to hold the windshield in place until needed. Works great and the windshield looks new and clear after 6/7 years!! :thumb:
A thought
Kevin
When the guy did the window in the Bimini to see the windex, he did it zippered. It's attached but one zip holds it closed, the other zip holds it when open (rolled up.) Very cool system, Velcro on a separate piece just doesn't work well (IMO).
Hi Kevin. I'm going thru this myself. When you really look at a well constructed bimini, you realize there is a lot of work, time, and skill required to make a quality bimini. In other words it's expensive.
FWIW - My Bimini is going to be 75"L x 81"W x 78"H. It will extend ~ 8-12" past the aft pushpit rails and end before the boom so a connector piece can attach from it to the existing dodger. The frame has 3 bows, 2 aft struts to the pushpit, and 2 forward struts to the gate stantions. It will use Sunbrella, Tenara thread, and Strataglass 40 gauge (with a cover) to see the top of the mast, and a zippered section with cutouts for the split back stays to pass thru.
My bimini bids with Sunbrella, Strataglass 40 gauge window plus cover, Tenara thread, zippers/fasteners, and 1" OD 316L SST .065 wall thickness tubing attached to the pushpit were anywhere from $3,200 to $4,200. I believe different labor rates drives the variation. Sunbrella material seemed to always be ~8 yards. This price does not include a connector piece from the bimini to the dodger, nor the solar panel attachments to the bimini.
As is the nature of things, I suspect there are people who only paid $1,200 for a bimini.
4 years ago we had Churchhill Brothers in Anacortes. It was about 5,000, but it included all new stainless because we wanted the dodger taller and the bimini we wanted in a configuration where it attached to the back side rails, and we had Eizen glass for the dodger, so it is clear as a window. The one thing about the Eizen glass is that it can get scratched by dacron sails or a flogging jib sheet, so we were disappointed it didn't stand up to normal use. (we dropped the main the first year (and long ago removed the flaking dutchman system so the sail sagged before we could flake it which caused the first scratch. but boating certainly has gotten much more expensive. Remember when the Davis mark 2 plastic sextant was $25. ? LOL