Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: ecaris on August 30, 2021, 12:54:14 PM

Title: Engine not starting when having sailed in stiff breeze with gear in reverse
Post by: ecaris on August 30, 2021, 12:54:14 PM
Hello,
We've had our C34 MKII for 5 years.  A few years ago, after sailing the boat for 4 hours, keeping the gearbox in reverse, the engine would not start notwithstanding having moved the gear shifter from reverse to neutral, to forward and back to neutral.  It did eventually start, but only after a good 15 minutes going back-and-forth, tacking, etc..  Well it happened again for the second time in 5 years.  Same scenario.  Is there an electronic switch that controls the position of the gearbox, that I can replace?  Thank you for any feedback you may have on this.
Title: Re: Engine not starting when having sailed in stiff breeze with gear in reverse
Post by: KWKloeber on August 30, 2021, 02:21:16 PM
Itís handy to indicate which engine and transmission you have when asking questions about the engine and transmission.
Thereís no stock interlock switch that Universal Motors installed on its engines and the gearbox is controlled manually (a cable) not electronically (by servos.)

You have something else going on.

More detail, please.  Wonít start can mean many things - starter motor wonít crank?  cranks slow? Cranks but engine doesnít ďcatchĒ? 
How long had you been sailing (battery drain) the two times it occurred vs times it didnít occur?
Did you use one house battery to start?  Which?  Or two?  Or an engine ďstartĒ battery?
Title: Re: Engine not starting when having sailed in stiff breeze with gear in reverse
Post by: Ron Hill on August 30, 2021, 03:00:39 PM
ecar : Unless a PO change it, your C34 MKII came with an M35BC engine and a Hurth100 transmission. 

Have you looked at the C34 MKII transmission adjust Westerbeke Bulletin on our web site?

Answer the questions that Ken asked because I believe it is an engine not a transmission problem that you are having!!

A few thoughts
Title: Re: Engine not starting when having sailed in stiff breeze with gear in reverse
Post by: ecaris on August 30, 2021, 10:33:26 PM
Thank you.  Not starting meaning ignition all good, alarms etc, but when pressing the start button, you only hear a click.  Batteries fully charged.  It is a Universal diesel M35 with a Hurt transmission.  The engine did fire up, but only after moving the gear shifter from reverse, to neutral, to forward, to neutral etc, to ultimately leave it in neutral to start.  It was a 10 -15 minute process of trying for it to the suddenly start.
Title: Re: Engine not starting when having sailed in stiff breeze with gear in reverse
Post by: KWKloeber on August 30, 2021, 11:51:55 PM
@ecaris

Ok the issue isn't the transmission or your shifter. 
There's an electrical issue or a starter (more starter solenoid) issue.

Is it an M35 or an M35BC engine?   Precision is important!!!   Why?  Because the M35 is a COMPLETELY different engine than the 35BC and an M35 has different wiring than an M35A. 
The wiring on the M35BC is very convoluted and there are components that can cause no crank issues.


What upgrades have been done? 
Any harness work or upgrade? 
Does the engine harness still have the Westerbeke RV type plugs?  And behind the cockpit panel is there a plug?  Has the start switch or key switch ever been replaced? 

How experienced/comfortable are you at troubleshooting with a voltmeter and using/following an wiring schematic?

Ron did the mk-II have an ammeter or voltmeter?
Title: Re: Engine not starting when having sailed in stiff breeze with gear in reverse
Post by: Ron Hill on August 31, 2021, 02:28:30 PM
Ken : All of the MkII production had the straightened out wiring (Voltmeter) for the M35BC engine. 

The M35 (30hp) engine became an option in 1991 and standard in 1992.  These C34s all had the Voltmeter (even starting in 1988), but still retained the "Gummy Bear" connectors!!  The ammeter "generally" was eliminated in the 1988 production.  BUT some early 1988s still had an Ammeter.

A few thoughts
Title: Re: Engine not starting when having sailed in stiff breeze with gear in reverse
Post by: Jim Hardesty on August 31, 2021, 03:29:10 PM
ecaris,
If your MKll is similar to mine there's no neutral safety switch.  Don't think the transmission in reverse has anything to do with your problem.  Possibly having more healing than normal showed up another problem.  I would start by checking that the ground wire and the starter wire connections are clean and tight.  Your starter may be going bad. 
Old trick, one of the times hitting with a hammer may work.  If you get stuck and the starter won't crank the engine.  Try tapping the starter/solenoid with a hammer a couple of times.  Secondly, very carefully tap with a rod or whatever, keeping yourself clear of moving parts, tap said starter/solenoid while someone depresses the start button.  If that works you need to fix or replace starter.
Jim
Title: Re: Engine not starting when having sailed in stiff breeze with gear in reverse
Post by: ecaris on August 31, 2021, 06:36:57 PM
Thank you all.  Iím pretty certain it is an M35A engine.  No upgrades that Iím aware of.  The prior owner did change the ignition/start switch.  Iím not sure about the Westerbeke RV type plug.  Will check grounding wire.  I am comfortable checking connection etc using a voltmeter.  Perhaps the heal while going to weather did indeed caused something that settled once level again. 
Title: Re: Engine not starting when having sailed in stiff breeze with gear in reverse
Post by: KWKloeber on August 31, 2021, 09:17:13 PM
Thank you all.  Iím pretty certain it is an M35A engine.  No upgrades that Iím aware of.  The prior owner did change the ignition/start switch.  Iím not sure about the Westerbeke RV type plug.  Will check grounding wire.  I am comfortable checking connection etc using a voltmeter.  Perhaps the heal while going to weather did indeed caused something that settled once level again.

Ec

Please confirm which engine she has because the starting system is different from the 35AC to the 35BC so some  troubleshooting could be different.  A pic of the front of the engine?

Once you verify we can talk about troubleshooting. Do you have an extra set of hands who can push buttons while you test with the VM?  Of course a huge issue is the the condition is so intermittent that youíre searching for something thatís ďainít brokenĒ.
Title: Re: Engine not starting when having sailed in stiff breeze with gear in reverse
Post by: ecaris on September 01, 2021, 06:30:20 AM
Iíll take a picture when on the boat tomorrow.  It is a 1996 boat.  The intermittent part is making this difficult.  Will have an extra hand when testing.  Thank you
Title: Re: Engine not starting when having sailed in stiff breeze with gear in reverse
Post by: csimmerling on September 01, 2021, 08:04:49 AM
I'm definitely not an expert, but someone told me once that rough sailing could stir up the fuel tank and cause problems starting that resolved later after it settled.
Title: Re: Engine not starting when having sailed in stiff breeze with gear in reverse
Post by: Ron Hill on September 01, 2021, 02:36:31 PM
ecar : If you have a 1996 C34 then you most likely have a M35BC engine!!  Especially if your hull (HIN) is higher than 1295 you also have a MKII C34 my friend!

A few thoughts 
Title: Re: Engine not starting when having sailed in stiff breeze with gear in reverse
Post by: ecaris on September 01, 2021, 09:55:19 PM
The engine model according to the plaque on the engine is a 35AC. 
Title: Re: Engine not starting when having sailed in stiff breeze with gear in reverse
Post by: ecaris on September 01, 2021, 10:03:46 PM
Hereís a picture of the engine.
Title: Re: Engine not starting when having sailed in stiff breeze with gear in reverse
Post by: KWKloeber on September 01, 2021, 11:04:26 PM
EC

Definitely not a ďBĒ engine, yes - a 35AC
Just FYI, the only difference between an M-35A and an M-35AC (or M-35A(C) ) is a slight change in the wiring to Catalinaís (i.e. (C)) schematic.
Title: Re: Engine not starting when having sailed in stiff breeze with gear in reverse
Post by: Stu Jackson on September 02, 2021, 11:40:03 AM
Sounds like a faulty connection from the key switch to the starter solenoid.  This is discussed in ther Critical Upgrades topic.
Title: Re: Engine not starting when having sailed in stiff breeze with gear in reverse
Post by: mark_53 on September 02, 2021, 12:32:30 PM
Here's a thought.  When sailing in a stiff breeze, your boat heals, at a 20-25 degree angle.  Doing this will under expose half the cells in your batteries.  If your using DC power during your sail, you may have depleted the batteries to an extent that they won't start the engine.  Check the water level in the batteries.
Title: Re: Engine not starting when having sailed in stiff breeze with gear in reverse
Post by: Ron Hill on September 02, 2021, 03:01:08 PM
ecar : What ever you do - DON"T give us your HIN !! 

It isn't beyond Catalina to have a "left over" M35AC engine and put it in a MKII hull !! 

A thought
Title: Re: Engine not starting when having sailed in stiff breeze with gear in reverse
Post by: ecaris on September 02, 2021, 06:59:40 PM
Sorry, what is HIN? Will look at critical upgrades.  Thks
Title: Re: Engine not starting when having sailed in stiff breeze with gear in reverse
Post by: Bill Shreeves on September 02, 2021, 08:07:51 PM
HIN = Hull Identification Number i.e. serial number usually on the stbd transom.