I'm in the middle of my 100hr service and took note of my glow plugs, with over 1500 hours on the motor it occurred to me that I have never done a thing to them. Maybe because for 30+ years I've never had a problem, I push the glow plug button for 20 to 25 seconds and the motor fires right up every time.
A fellow C34 owner had recently replaced his glow plugs(not sure why)which got me thinking should I replace them or not, I don't know. That's why I'm posing this question to the collective wisdom of the C34 herd.
Kevin
If while you heat them the tops are too hot to hang onto, they're fine. You could check their resistance from tip to ground to see if they're about the same (same idea as cylinders' compression). I don't recall but could look up the spec on the resistance but the finger test says it all and is most reliable.
Now that said, for the measly cost new ones are cheap insurance.
Yours may just last forever cuz you haven't drunk the Koolaid re: the stupid glow plug relay mod! :clap :clap I don't know how you've endured that hardship, preheating for 20-25 seconds instead of 10-15 seconds. :shock: :shock: :?
Ken
(I couldn't resist given that opportunity) :D
Quote from: KWKloeber on September 23, 2020, 08:21:06 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yours may just last forever cuz you haven't drunk the Koolaid re: the stupid glow plug relay mod! :clap :clap I don't know how you've endured that hardship, preheating for 20-25 seconds instead of 10-15 seconds. :shock: :shock: :?
Ken
(I couldn't resist given that opportunity) :D
Kevin, sometimes Ken just can't help himself. That'd be most of the time. He tends to uselessly repeat himself, too, and too often.
It's your CHOICE to install the glow plug solenoid. The advantage is that you can start a cold engine in half the time. Ken thinks that's unnecessary, and has explained why maybe once before, followed by his repeated dissing of the concept.
The only disadvantage I can recall is that one could possibly burn out the glow plugs if, WITH a solenoid installed, you keep them energized too long, because the voltage that gets to them is higher because the current doesn't have to run up to the cockpit panel and back down to the engine.
But that would mean that YOU, as the boat owner, just plumb forgot (!!!) that you actually installed the solenoid. How could that be?!?
In response to one of Ken's earlier solenoid diss comments, I related my actual real life experience where it came in very handy:
We'd sailed across SF Bay from the Oakland Estuary to Sausalito, and by then our engine was cold. Sausalito has Hurricane Gulch, with high winds over a break in the hills to the west, but also, just to the north of it, a band of light breeze. We were right at that point, furling our jib and dropping our main. There was a Big Boat Race going on, and there was a large group of large sailboats bearing down on us from the north and east - one of their turning marks was a since removed yellow buoy off Hurricane Gulch.
When we tried to start the engine, nothing happened. I knew exactly what it was, because ten years earlier I had replaced the start button to starter solenoid fuse holder, and had since relocated it to a more accessible spot (see Critical Upgrades). I hopped down below, opened the engine compartment and messed with the fuse holder, and asked Morgan to try to start the engine. It turned over this time, but didn't start because it was cold. By then those large racing sailboats were bearing down on us, having slid out of the dead zone and hit the breeze. We could see the bones in their teeth, a few heading right for us.
I told Morgan to hit the glow plug button for 12-15 seconds, and then the engine started right up. And we motored out of their way, close call.Do I mind being able to start my engine faster? No.
Do I need it all the time? No.
Do I appreciate having it. You betcha.
We all recognize the help Ken's given us over the years and applaud him for that assistance. But sometimes his rants get tiresome. Perhaps he should have resisted. Sometimes those few seconds can be a real help, in the real world.
Look, it's Your Boat, your choice :D, to install one or not. Always has been, always will be. But faster starting can sometimes be necessary, and eliminating the power run up to the cockpit panel can't hurt.
Plus, I used to like KoolAid. :D:D:D
Wow, I feel like I just stumbled into a dark room and lit a torch to get my bearings only to discover it's a room full of dynamite. Sorry guys I didn't realize I was ripping a scab off, just curious about the longevity of glow plugs.
I have to say I've been coming to this board for a few years now and this is the first I've heard about the great glow plug/solenoid debate. With regard to that debate I think I'll stick with the old saw, YBYC.
One more thing I was wondering about, when I start the motor(after glow plug warm up) I hold both the glow plug button and the starter button until the motor fires, does anybody release the glow plug button first then push the starter button?
Quote from: scgunner on September 24, 2020, 08:42:36 AM
...................................
One more thing I was wondering about, when I start the motor(after glow plug warm up) I hold both the glow plug button and the starter button until the motor fires, does anybody release the glow plug button first then push the starter button?
Earliest input has always been to release the glow plug button before the start button. Why? Because the plugs have already heated the chambers; no need to have simultaneous draws on the battery.
Stu,
I like that idea, those glow plugs pull a lot of juice which can be freed up to crank the motor. I'll give it a try see how it works.
Quote from: scgunner on September 24, 2020, 09:57:18 AM
Stu,
I like that idea, those glow plugs pull a lot of juice which can be freed up to crank the motor. I'll give it a try see how it works.
That's exactly right. Glow plugs draw a lot of power. I release the glow plug momentary switch then wait about 3 seconds to let the start battery recover then hit the start button.
Kevin,
Do you really need to use the glow plugs to start? Shamrock starts right up till the temps are in the 40s. Rarely on a restart. I don't use the glow plugs a half dozen times a year.
Jim
Jim,
Maybe that M35BC just has better compression than our old M25XP's. Mine takes a good 15+ seconds before it's warm enough to fire....and I just had the injectors rebuilt this year too.
But she's old and I do believe I'm getting a good bit of blow by on the rings, (reduced compression) I installed a catch can in between the crank case vent and and air filter and it's about ready to be emptied after only moderate use this year. :shock:
Kevin,
When I pulled the motor out this past winter I gave it a major servicing (not rebuild....yet) and replaced the glow plugs at that time. Given our boats uncared for past I felt it couldn't hurt. The original glow plugs showed some wear so since the replacements were actually pretty inexpensive, it was easiest to replace them. :thumb:
Guys : I believe that the glow plug solenoid relay is one of the best and smartest mods for the M25/M25XP engine that I've seen!!
Look at what you have with out it - To turn the key switch/glow plug button to energize the glow plugs the current must travel in a #16 gage wire from the common starter solenoid post, up to the key switch and then back to the #3 cylinder glow plug about a distance of 15-16 ft!! Then it is gang wired in series to the other 2 glow plugs. I've have never measured the voltage at #3 cylinder, but it must be only a dribble. Then that dribble must also has to energize the next 2 plugs!! Why energize that circuit for 30 some seconds (dragging down the battery/s starting power) when the Ford truck solenoid mod. will allow you to just open a circuit (for 2/3seconds) from the starter common post thru a #8 wire just around the corner only 2/3 ft away to the #3 glow plug???? Why NOT!?!
Ken : I've been in an anchorage when the wind (T storm) has changed the wind 180 degrees @ 03:00 AM and suddenly awaken by the smell and noise of diesel engines because Anchors are dragging!! Believe me it sure is nice to be able to hit that glow plug switch for 2/3 seconds and get that engine running while I figure out what all is happening!!
Also it nice when the spinnaker is up and flying and there is TOOO much wind!! You are on the bow trying to hold things together and you call back (never yell!!) to the 1st Mate to start the engine. One hand on the wheel and only 2/3 seconds of glow plugs!!
Jim : The glow plugs are there for a reason and I always figured that lighting the glow plugs lessen the strain (# of rpm) that the starter needed to turn and start the engine! Also to replace glow plugs is alot cheaper $$ - than starters!! Restart seldom/never needs the plugs.
Ken : I found that Kool aide is a cheap drink to fill up kids, but it stains every thing when spilled, gives the drinker an energy hi and is a Dentists delight for making $$.
If the old original charging circuit thru the gummy plugs was bad i.e. from the alternator to the key switch and back to the battery bank was bad and inefficient (15-16ft) - then why would you do the same with the glow plugs? when you can install a simple mod????
A few thoughts
Anything that shortens the cranking/starting time of the engine is a plus in my book. If you crank it too long you risk filling the muffler with seawater and back-flowing into the engine. Caveat: I am not a mechanic.😎
Quote from: Noah on September 24, 2020, 05:38:44 PM
Anything that shortens the cranking/starting time of the engine is a plus in my book. If you crank it too long you risk filling the muffler with seawater and back-flowing into the engine. Caveat: I am not a mechanic.😎
It wouldn't shorten the cranking time just the preheat time on a cold engine. Once the glow plugs are up to temperature, the engine should fire right up. I seem to recall the glow plugs were 10v so maybe some voltage drop is ok but I'm no mechanic either.
Ron, thanks for explaining a couple of other good reasons it wouldn't hurt to shorten the glow plug time. I know, I know, it was so completely wrong of me to be an imprudent skipper to even think of getting myself in the way of racing sailboats on SF Bay, who woulda thunk? :D I'm so irresponsible... 8)
Well let's see here, we've got one opinion that the solenoid install is the best thing ever, we've another which says it's the dumbest thing you can do, and someone else saying what do you even need glow plugs for anyway! I think one thing we can all agree on is this is definitely a YBYC kind of a thread.
As for me I'm reluctant to monkey around with a system that works great especially when I have other fish to fry. Right now I'm dealing with a persnickety heat exchanger that doesn't want to exchange heat.
Stu, releasing the glow plug before cranking works great, thanks for the tip. Only took 32 years to get it right!
I think the issue of the solenoid is also interesting in that without it the circuit runs through the panel, this has to cause some voltage drop due to wire length. Perhaps if that were combined with lower battery voltage then the:
Watts (Glowplug power requirement) = Volts x Amps, if the power requirement stays the same and the voltage dips the amps go up. Could be the wiring might not handle that so well. Solenoid stops that amperage draw through the panel wiring. Plus, believe me, if an engine manufacturer added a solenoid to this circuit there was a potential (no pun intended) problem. It certainly wasn't done for our convenience!
There are some interesting trade offs in the engine world. Indirect injected engines push fuel at a lower pressure into a combustion chamber in the cylinder head, which is surrounded by coolant. On cold days this chamber is cold and stays cold during cranking, hence the need for artificial heat in the form of glow plugs, to reach the light off temp for a single stream of fuel. In a direct injected engine where the fuel, at much higher pressure, is sprayed into the combustion chamber on top of the piston, through 4, 5 or 6 very small holes in the injectors, the chamber heats up quicker and retains heat due to the piston mass.
This type of engine does not need glowplugs, until emission compliance becomes the primary driver of engine design, and that is mainly due to timing requirements and the need to avoid white smoke, not steam, at start-up.
Some of the advantages of indirect injected engines are;
1) the combustion noise is better damped in this type of engine than the alternative, making the combustion noise "softer" and the engine inherently quieter.
2) the single stream of fuel through the indirect injection injector is extremely tolerant to water in the fuel. Typically if you ingest water you get a cloud of white steam and the engine stops. As long as the oh
s--t moment occurs soon after this happens, one can clean the system and put clean fuel though it and save it from rusting. Try this on a direct injected engine and the tips will be blown off the injectors due to water expanding into steam in the tip (anyone run 4-108 Perkins??) and you are stuck in some odd port waiting for new expensive injectors or tips.
The main disadvantage of indirect over direct is that it shows somewhere around 12% higher fuel consumption, mostly due to lower thermal efficiency, typically who cares?
I glow my M35B for a few seconds each start, as Ron says it takes the strain off the starter. Mine is running in very few turns of the engine.
Robert : Thanks for your conclusion and explanation of why the M25 type cylinder engines need glow plugs!! Your M35BC engine already has the glow plug problem solved!! However the factory installed M25/M25XP engines do NOT!!
You are correct about the longer(15ft run), but you didn't hi-light the size of the wire - 15ft in #16 gage wire and 2/3ft in #8 gage wire!! That'd one hell of an amperage difference and battery draw down in 30 vrs. 3 seconds !!!! :shock:
The saddest thing is that it's an upgrade that only costs about $25 !! and is easy to do!! :thumb:
A few thoughts
Ron you are quite right. If my boat had the direct wired plugs, it would bother me to no end, I would add the solenoid update.
Just be thankful we have glow plugs, times past we used flame starters. Basically a fitting in the intake with a resistance wire coil that was 12 or 24v activated, into this we ran fuel and created heat in the intake manifold to aid starting. Made by the Prince of Darkness themselves CAV Lucas, who else?
[edit] PS: Bob/Ron, I've seen THREE of the wonderful unnecessary start/fuel shutoff/preheat solenoids FAIL.
What do owners do then? When they need to start within the precious 2-3 seconds (because before that point one couldn't wait the 25 or 30 seconds)? No one wants to address that elephant in the room; just ignore it. Quote
...the solenoid is also interesting in that without it the circuit runs through the panel, this has to cause some voltage drop due to wire length.
YES YES YES EXACTLY. And that's DESIRABLE.NGK says, "
Don't go above 10.5 volts on our plugs."
Bob,
With all due respect to everyone's right to an opinion, this is what I mean about "Koolaid" spreading.
Many incorrect "facts" and misconceptions float around about the OEM preheat circuit. And folks snatch onto them or make up new ones to espouse why it's "bad," based on incorrect assumptions that are formulated from incorrect "facts" to being with.
Then someone cries "Yeah Yeah, Thank you!" (for supporting my own nonfactual statements.) It's a vicious cycle that goes on and on.
Trying to keep a technical discussion, factual:
Quote
...the voltage dips the amps go up.
Not factual. Resistance in the plugs (1.6 ohms) + resistance in the wire (0.07 ohms) controls the amps.
Your V/A relationship is also not factual. Mr. Ohm says so (it's a law, not just a good idea.)
Amps = Volts / Resistance, ohms. i.e., if the supply voltage drops from 12.5v to 10.5v, the amperage doesn't increase it DROPS 16%.
Quote
Could be the wiring might not handle that so well.
Not factual - the GP circuit is 10 awg not 16 awg as Ron says (the S wire was 16 awg) and 10 awg can handle 51 amps (in the engine compartment), and like 60 amps outside the engine compartment.
Quote
...if an engine manufacturer added a solenoid to this circuit there was a potential (no pun intended) problem. It certainly wasn't done for our convenience!
Interesting assumption but that ain't the history.
Universai Medalist never
added a GP solenoid.
And Westerbeke didn't
ADD a GP solenoid. No eureka! moment there.
Wb engines "always" had one because JDW had the engine shutdown (low oil pressure) -- either the pump shutoff or an optional fuel line shutoff. Wb simply slapped on it's long-standing wiring scheme when it bought Universal -- **Those are the "A" (25XPA) engines**. Anyone who believes that Wb wiring (non ABYC compliant, by the way) is the gold standard that's another topic for discussion. IN FACT, Catalina didn't like some of Wb's scheme and made them change it for our boats. I think Ron can tell you what he thinks of Westerbeke's wiring.
The solenoid is there because it's needed for the engine shutdown, and the alarm, and yes, powering the GPs when basically power to the engine is shut off when there is no oil pressure (that is before starting,) not because Wb had a eureka moment about glow plugs.
Quote from: Ron Hill on September 24, 2020, 02:48:40 PM
Look at what you have with out it
Ron,
I believe nearly 100% of your arguments against leaving the OEM preheat are, well, "not factual." i.e., they're simply untrue.
I'm not trying to change your or Stu's mind. What I said is
others NEED to have ACCURATE FACTS (in short supply) and then weigh the downsides. And (instead of Koolaiding) decide from FACTS if that gamble is worth 10 whole seconds and if those are necessary (not just desirable.)
I address your statements (if anyone cares to know the facts.) If I misconstrued anything you said, please correct me:
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,10744.msg83677.html#msg83677
I never ever said a shorter preheat is undesirable. However, decide using ACCURATE FACTS.
(As you say) A couple thoughts about being necessary -
When firing up in an anchorage, what difference if one starts to weigh a situation for 25 seconds WHILE preheating? See what I am saying about it being "unnecessary" when one sits down and honestly weights the situations? A peace of mind is the difference -- but not a necessity.
When sailing and one needs to get 'er started (within 10 seconds rather than 20 seconds) to get out of the way, would you say the skipper is "
maintaining a proper watch"?
What would you say if a powerboater had a colision because he/she misjudged you by 10 seconds?
Religion, politics, climate change, face masks, anchors, glow plugs....???? The list is getting longer... :abd:
Question to those who have made the solenoid conversion. Have you burned out any glow plugs since doing the mod?
Been 4 years and, nope. Fingers crossed. 8)
There seems to be a lot of passion involved with this topic considering we're just talking about starting the motor. I get the long wire run argument for favoring the solenoid addition, but I think at some point we might have to concede to the possibility that the guys that built this boat just might have known what they were doing. As for me, I'd rate my stock ignition system as excellent, even with my 33 year old glow plugs(the thing that started this furball originally), so I don't see the need to make any changes.
Jim, FYI my M25 has no interest in firing up unless it gets some glow plug lovin' first.
I do love this board, along with a spirited discussion on a topic that was heretofore unknown to me, I also learned a better technique for starting the motor.
To add another data point, my 1990 only needs 10-15 seconds of glow plug to start from cold. I have the Catalina Direct wiring harness upgrade--first thing I did when I got Donnybrook--but otherwise it's stock. I've thought about the solenoid but have other priorities.
@Noah - poliglow vs wax?
@Kevin
To your original question, you can also check the resistance, wire terminal (wire removed). to the grounded case. If it's 1.6 ohms, give/take a little you are ok.
Caveat- that R is from the Kubota service manual, not from NGK or verified (but that value does make sense given the v and a ratings. Another thing - if the tip gets carbonized and gunked up in the "tunnel" into which it fits, that can affect operation. So, if they heat as I described and R checks out, before ass/u/ming she needs a voltage boosting mod, the GP should be removed and that checked out.
The only passion/dog I have re: this is, "(actual) facts first, then decide"
@Kyle
You bring up a very good point. I alluded to it (w/Ron's 30sec vs 3sec,) but didn't give it enough spotlight. If one had slow preheating and did a harness upgrade and the same time (quite likely I'd imagine) installed the preheat mod, one could very easily conclude that cheap, $25 mod was "necessary."
But we know that Correlation doesn't prove causation.
As you did, upgrading the harness and getting everything up to snuff — maybe just maybe a mod isn't "necessary" (except say for extreme temperature locations.)
@mark
I'd suspect that they would degrade more rapidly over time, not completely fail at once. But as I pointed out it's not that huge an issue for us due to the relatively few times our engines are preheated (say compared to an automobile or truck or construction equipment) over a year.
I didn't get into these weeds, but since at least some find a technical discussion worthwhile here's some tidbits. NGK has told me it has ceramic plugs much more resilient to over-voltage/over-current. Also that it has developed self-regulating plugs (so instead of a resistance box externally as Kubota installs,) the plug itself controls overheating when it gets over voltaged.
No, neither series are available to replace the Y-103V plug.
Quote from: mark_53 on September 26, 2020, 09:21:02 AM
Question to those who have made the solenoid conversion. Have you burned out any glow plugs since doing the mod?
No, maybe 20 years ago, at least 15.
Ken : You need to remember that I've been talking about the glow plug mod. in only the M25/M25XP engines. I don't know of any one that installed that glow plug mod back in the early 1990s has ever had a failure?!?
As C34 Mainsheet tech editor I had one hell of a time figuring out what Westerbeake had done to the M35 engine? The 2 prong oil switch??? had us baffled for awhile!! :cry4`
In fact when I installed my NEW M25XPB engine, I took all of that old mod (+ the single pole oil switch) from the old engine and installed it all on the new engine. It all is still going 24 years later !!!!
I just couldn't stand the thought of that goofy glow plug, fuel pump, oil pressure "Lashup" that they installed on the M35BC and M25XPB engines. That's why I removed it!! :thumb:
Don't know how many posts and questions have come up over that GOOFY "Lashup"; which is NOT necessary as the C34 engine will still keep running even if the fuel pump fails ANYWAY!!!!!
A few thoughts
i've read through this thread with interest as i will add a solenoid to my engine when i rewire it over the winter. seemed like a good idea. i can't say for sure one way or another, but the 10.5v requirement is something i don't understand.
i can see the NGK-Y103V replacement plug mentioned does seem to list 10.5v in it's specs. i unfortunately can't find the spec for the OEM plugs that came with my engine (and are still in it). I'm wondering if the universal glow plugs are actually higher voltage. and since most people haven't changed out there glow plugs, that might explain why those that have done the solenoid mod haven't blow out their plugs
it seems odd to me to add a component to a system that requires a max voltage that is far below normal battery voltage, but doesn't include some sort of a voltage regulator to ensure it doesn't exceed the spec. relying on a voltage drop over then length of cable is fine, but i think we can do better. in the same vein, lets say someone wanted to add the solenoid to the engine (for whichever reason), but also wanted to regulate the voltage from the solenoid down to 10.5v for the plugs. any recommendations on a component to add?
Quote from: mdidomenico on September 26, 2020, 03:44:21 PM
in the same vein, lets say someone wanted to add the solenoid to the engine (for whichever reason), but also wanted to regulate the voltage from the solenoid down to 10.5v for the plugs. any recommendations on a component to add?
I'd measure voltage at the plugs first then add a longer wire, possibly to the panel and back to reduce the voltage to 10.5v. lol
QuoteJim, FYI my M25 has no interest in firing up unless it gets some glow plug lovin' first.
I don't want to add fuel to this heated debate. But, After sitting for a couple of days, temp in the 60s, Shamrock started up in less than 2 seconds. That's one Mississippi, two Missi..started. I'm just saying, perhaps some engines will start just fine without heating the glow plugs except in cold weather. If more cranking would be required would begin using the glow plugs.
Your Boat Your Choice.
Jim
Quote from: mdidomenico on September 26, 2020, 03:44:21 PM
say someone wanted to add the solenoid to the engine (for whichever reason), but also wanted to regulate the voltage from the solenoid down to 10.5v for the plugs. any recommendations on a component to add?
md
One would need to at least put a power resistor in the circuit that would take say, 2 volts off the supply (which is what Kubota did with a "preheat indicator" and a preheat timer on these engines in tractors -- which was essentially a resistor coil that glowed to indicate that the preheat was energized while it also reduced the voltage.
But that's not a voltage regulator (if the btty voltage varied.)
BUT, I can't fathom why someone would want to do that - raise the supply voltage only to then drop the voltage by introducing another component that could fail.
It's the same voltage plug, OEM or replacement -- that's why Kubota uses the resistance coil!!
I'll say it again, with the relatively few preheats on our engines, the V isn't that big a deal. It's the fact that we should keep things as simple as possible to do the job needed. We don't need a solution in search of a problem that isn't a problem.
Quote from: Ron Hill on September 26, 2020, 02:01:10 PM
my NEW M25XPB engine
Ron
I tend to use the term convoluted, but GOOFY is much better.
Do you rip out the XPB solenoid and that little 10a non-compliant circuit breaker and the whole shebang when you rewired?
Did you trash the extension oil hose fo the 2=terminal N/O switch and put the 1 terminal N/C oil switch right on the block?
Gentlemen! A very entertaining thread. 1 question to all:
I hold my glo button until the engine starts. Pretty much the same time you'd let go the start key. I only glo for about 5 or 6 seconds. Engine starts right up in about 2-4 seconds. Glo current is about 18 to 20 amps plus cranking amps 100?. Did this heretofore bad habit ruin my four 2 year old Duracell 6v GC batteries?
Notes: Samlex 3 stage charger, Isotherm water cooled reefer, no inverter, no other loads when the boat is on shore power for the week. I always crank the engine on ALL. No dedicated start battery. Suddenly this season the batteries have been losing water... last check was 1 gallon in a week. Bought a new Samlex charger, it as well as the old one are charging at 10-12 amps continuously, used to settle in a 1-3amps. The old one is a suspect due to an overvoltage of shore power which damaged a lot of peoples equipment at the club 2 years ago. Recently I've had to use the compression release to get started.
Ron
I tend to use the term convoluted, but GOOFY is much better.
Do you rip out the XPB solenoid and that little 10a non-compliant circuit breaker and the whole shebang when you rewired?
Did you trash the extension oil hose fo the 2=terminal N/O switch and put the 1 terminal N/C oil switch right on the block?
[/quote]
Ken : You Bech'um !! I removed the entire wiring harness and started over!! I even replumbed the fuel from the round Facuet fuel pump by passing the square one on the engine!!
The single pole oil sending switch went directly into the engine. I also added a small positive terminal block - as the starter solenoid threaded pole was too short and looked very flimsy coming out of that Bakelite fitting!!
This then made the engine fit the electrical wiring and fuel plumbing already installed on the boat! Easily done and could also easily be done on the 4cylinder M35BC engine. Made things MUCH simpler!!! :thumb:
A few thoughts
Dan,
Your starting procedure didn't ruin your batteries. I've been starting basically the same way for 32 years except I hold the glow plugs button much longer, around 20 to 25 seconds. However, now because of this thread(as you can read)I release the glow plug button before I crank the motor, it seems to be easier on the batteries.
Kevin : It's not only easier on the batteries - it is much easier (more current available) to the STARTER!!!
A thought
True dat!
I don't have a glow plug button. Glow plug function is part of my key. Turn spring loaded key all the way to right, hold 5-10 sec. to heat plugs, then release key and push start button. Away she goes.
https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-38/electrical/breakers-switches/ignition-switch-3-position-plastic-body/?SearchResults=1
Noah : FYI, In the early C34s 1986 & 1987 the engine instrument panel had 2 push buttons. One for the starter and one for the glow plugs.
Starting with the 1988 C34 production (and subsequent MK Is thru 1994) the engine instrument panel changed and the glow plug button was eliminate. The glow plug function was incorporated in the spring loaded position of the key switch. Hold ON (to the right - clockwise) the glow plugs stay ON. Release the key switch (so it goes back to just the "key ON" position) the glow plugs are turned OFF.
For the M35A engine (Option MK I) & the MKII (M35BC engine) the functioning of the spring loaded key switch position - this is a whole new ball game!!
A thought
Quote from: Ron Hill on September 29, 2020, 02:28:08 PM
Noah : FYI, In the early C34s 1986 & 1987 the engine instrument panel had 2 push buttons. One for the starter and one for the glow plugs.
Starting with the 1988 C34 production (and subsequent) the engine instrument panel changed and the glow plug button was eliminate. The glow plug function was incorporated in the spring loaded position of the key switch.
A thought
IIRC, it might have been when they did this they also changed the wiring so that the fuel pump only comes on when the glow plugs are energized, and the pump turns off when the plug position in the key switch goes to "on", and pump restarts when the oil pressure is "made." For another POV, the sequence could have been done when they started installing the M25XP. I always thought it was the
engine switch which resulted in the elimination of the glow pug button and to the key switch, rather than just a
change in the panel ; and if it was the
panel change "only" whether or not that alone changed the wiring.
It would be helpful for those who have those boats (early M25XPs and late M25s - probably in the late 200 to 400 hull numbers) to assure themselves of what they have and how it works.
Could be I'm just getting into minutia again about the when & why of the wiring change. Wouldn't be the first time! :D :D :D
The sequencing of the fuel pump is discussed in Reply #30 in Critical Upgrades.
According to Seaward, the change in the panels, switches -- was CTY responding to customers' complaints about the starting sequence.
We 30-ers had a third configuration (in this sequence):
* pre-1986-ish: key ON + momentary toggle switch preheat + key start
* 1986-ish: key ON + PB switch preheat + PB switch start
* 1988-ish: Key ON + key preheat + PB start
The glow plug and fuel pump abomination wasn't tied to the panel configuration -- it happened when Westerbeke bought Universal. In other words, the panel configuration used did not depend on the engine and wiring that was installed -- and vice vesa. Any panel config could be used with any engine that was installed.
After buying Universal, Wb replaced the "Universal" wiring schematic, with its longtime-used "Westerbeke" wiring schematic (Wb *always* had the fuel pump shut off on its engines.)
This was introduced on the "A" series (i.e., XPA, 35A) and of course Wb uses it on the "B" series. The "A" engines are essentially identical to the predecessors, with the exception of the wiring schematic (and of course paint color.)