Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: mark_53 on June 11, 2019, 06:07:49 PM

Title: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: mark_53 on June 11, 2019, 06:07:49 PM
Anyone have a good technique for changing the secondary fuel filter on a M25XP without spilling diesel?
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: KWKloeber on June 11, 2019, 06:26:29 PM
Since the filter is vertical I am just very careful when dropping it.
Put a diaper under the area - when the filter is finger loose slide a gallon baggie up and finish unscrewing the filter.
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: mark_53 on June 11, 2019, 09:09:42 PM
Thanks Ken sounds like a good technique.  Is it possible to pour the diesel from the old into the new filter or will diesel continue to flow when the filter is removed?
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: KWKloeber on June 11, 2019, 09:24:07 PM
Don’t see why it wouldn’t be “possible” but probably messy.
But why?  You’re going to bleed and the facet will fill the filter. I’ve never pre filled my primary or secondary and never had a problem.  Others’ mileage may vary.

I have my bleed set up a little different than yours - I KNOW when I have foam or pure fuel and so don’t need to guess when enough bleeding is enough. 
FYI there’s a bleed screw on the secondary’s housing but I’ve never had to use it.

I can’t say how your lines are run. On my 30 i have a high hump in the fuel line before the secondary, so a limited can drain if the facet isn’t pushing fuel to the injector pump.
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: mark_53 on June 11, 2019, 09:49:57 PM
Don’t see why it wouldn’t be “possible” but probably messy.
But why?
I was trying to solve the problem of what do I do with the refuse diesel.

You’re going to bleed and the facet will fill the filter. I’ve never pre filled my primary or secondary and never had a problem.  Others’ mileage may vary.
Is bleeding necessary with an electric fuel pump?

I'm trying to find out if diesel will continue to flow when I remove the secondary fuel filter.  If it does, I won't have time to do much of anything.

Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: KWKloeber on June 11, 2019, 11:54:58 PM
Again I can’t say where/how your fuel line is run. It doesn’t continue to “flow” only what “drains” depending on the elevation/run of the line.  Little drains from mine how I have it run. 

“Of course” you’re closing the fuel shut off valve so none will siphon from the tank?

The type of lift pump has zero to do w/ bleeding.  Once you get air in the lines thru either a vac leak or changing filters, you want to bleed the air before it gets to the injector pump.  Otherwise you may need to bleed at each injector (a PITA.). The pump and injectors don’t like air or foam.

I’m sure there’s a 101 or tech note somewhere about the fuel system if you’re unfamiliar with the procedure on the M25/XP.  Do you have the manuals?  They should cover bleeding.

When I bleed, fuel goes into a Solo cup so I can inspect it, then gets stuffed with paper towel to soak it up, then into my baggie with trash filters.  No muss, no fuss, no drips, no runs, no errors, no one left on third.
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: Jim Hardesty on June 12, 2019, 03:20:37 AM
Quote
Anyone have a good technique for changing the secondary fuel filter on a M25XP without spilling diesel?

You may be doing this, may be not.  Try shutting the fuel off before changing the filter.  Also keep an eye out for the right size and shape containers for filter changes.  Also I've used ziplock bags around filters, put on the bag, remove filter, zip-up bag.  Sometimes regular bags will work.
Jim

Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: scgunner on June 12, 2019, 07:30:09 AM
    Mark,

      There's no way I know of to change that filter without at least some dripping. As long as the ignition is off there is no fuel flowing so you can take your time when changing that filter. What I do is put rags below the filter to keep any fuel from dripping into the compartment, next I hold a bowl under the filter while unscrewing it. Once the filter bowl is free I pour it into the bowl then I change the filter element next I pour the fuel back into the filter bowl, then put the new filter assembly back into the element bowl and screw it back into place. Wipe everything down and you're good to go, I usually don't even need to bleed it.
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: mark_53 on June 12, 2019, 11:42:54 AM
Thanks Kevin that sounds like a good technique.  Do you shut off the flow of diesel with the fuel shut off valve first?
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: mark_53 on June 12, 2019, 02:23:00 PM
Got er done. Some lessons. I did not want to deal with the fuel shut off so I left open.
1) Used a 11.3 oz plastic coffee container that fit just over the old filter. Unscrewed the filter and diesel fell into container.
2) Diesel kept slowly flowing.  Quickly installed new filter.
3) Started engine which ran for 10 seconds and died. Oh well, so much for short cuts.
4)Turned ignition to on to activate electric fuel pump and bleed the filter until good flow of fuel came out. Caught this fuel with coffee container and bilge rags.
5) Tried to start engine. No joy.
6) Activated electric fuel pump and turned the knurled knob on the injector pump. Electric pump ran but no fuel escaped. This is because my engine has a self bleeding return valve.
7) Engine started

Thanks guy’s for the tips.
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: Ron Hill on June 12, 2019, 03:51:43 PM
Mark : It has been posted MANY times - to fill the filter with diesel before you screw it ON.  Then do the bleeding procedure by loosening the bleed nut on the top of the filter holder!!

A few thoughts
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: Stu Jackson on June 13, 2019, 04:37:07 PM
Mark : It has been posted MANY times -

1.  to fill the filter with diesel before you screw it ON. 

2.  Then do the bleeding procedure by loosening the bleed nut on the top of the filter holder!!



1.  Completely unnecessary for the secondary engine mounted filter.

2.  Once the new filter is in place, you WILL need to partially unscrew the vent on the secondary filter housing.  I installed a fuel pump shutoff toggle switch right next to the pump so when the fuel start pouring out of the screw I can easily shut off the pump, close the screw and finish bleeding.

As Ron always says, "Only do ONE thing at a time, so if something goes wrong at least you'll know for sure that it's the last thing you did instead of wondering which of two or more things it could be."  Very wise advice.  Do ONE filter at a time, make sure the engine runs, then go do the other filter.  Doesn't matter which one goes first.

And again, for grins & giggles, I finally changed my primary filter after 900 hours.  I haven't changed the secondary in decades.  This may start a sh*tstorm, but I use a 2 micron on the primary.  After those 900 hours, it was still almost spotless.
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: KWKloeber on June 13, 2019, 05:19:44 PM
Stu you’ve gotten some nice CLEAN fuel.

How many do you know that have to bleed at the secondary housing?  Is that typical?
I have NEVER ever bled there- the only bleeding I’ve needed to do is using the bleed knob/valve (formerly bleed hex bolt) before the injector pump. Wouldn’t that be bleeding the same thing, but just a little further downstream?

Is that a 2u Racor you’re using?
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: Phil Spicer on June 13, 2019, 06:05:17 PM
   Stu, you must be living right, 900 hrs on your filters. That 2 micron is doing it's job.
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: Stu Jackson on June 13, 2019, 06:10:52 PM
Stu you’ve gotten some nice CLEAN fuel.

How many do you know that have to bleed at the secondary housing?  Is that typical?
I have NEVER ever bled there- the only bleeding I’ve needed to do is using the bleed knob/valve (formerly bleed hex bolt) before the injector pump. Wouldn’t that be bleeding the same thing, but just a little further downstream?

Is that a 2u Racor you’re using?

We have owned Aquavite for 21 years.  We have purchased fuel all over Northern California, up the coast and in BC and the San Juan Islands.  Just my dumb luck.

All I can tell you is what MY experiences have been.  Other than depending on our "Bleeding 101" guru, Ken Heyman, our C34IA Treasurer who "wrote the book" on primary filter bleeding, my points here are about the secondary, which was not covered in Ken's presentations.

All I can share are my experiences, since I rarely get into that arcane subject around the cocktails.  :D

I have shared these thoughts here before, too, and am pleased to re-contribute them.

Perhaps I wasn't patient enough the first three times I changed the secondary, but my experience is that the engine wouldn't start UNLESS I popped that screw.  Theoretically, if I waited long enough for the pump to run it all the way through the system, sure, you're right.

Yes.
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: Stu Jackson on June 13, 2019, 06:19:01 PM
   Stu, you must be living right, 900 hrs on your filters. That 2 micron is doing it's job.

Phil,

I'm sure I have been.  Listened to all the advantages and disadvantages of primary filter filtration, and personally decided to make the one I could get at easily the one to provide the smallest micron protection.  The other part of the equation is flow rate:  the primaries we almost all use are rated for scads of gph well in excess of what we actually use.  While the micron filtration isn't affected by flow rate, the amount of fuel that passes through certainly is, so one should expect a higher useful life.

My boat, my choice.  :D

PS:  Fuel Filtration 101 (with both primary Racor and secondary engine filter identification)
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,1124.0.html and http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6475.0.html

These links ^^^, and the links therein, really cover EVERYTHING about this subject.

Here's all that was there when I cracked it open:
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: KWKloeber on June 13, 2019, 09:04:41 PM
Just some obscure info so as not to misled by Parker Hannifin’s hype, the cartridge sold/marketed as “2u”  is actually (per Racor, 2012) a 4u filter.  The cartridge marketed as “10u” is indeed rated 10u. (Truth in advertising?)
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: Ron Hill on June 14, 2019, 12:04:01 PM
Guys : As Stu said - You can use the electric fuel pump to fill the empty filter after it has been put on. 
I just have always thought that if air in the fuel line WILL kill a diesel engine, then why introduce air in an empty filter when you can easily fill that filter with fuel???  I still bleed as a "just in case" !!

My thinking   8)
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: MarcZ on June 14, 2019, 12:30:04 PM
What would be the recommended bleeding procedure for M35A ?
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: Dave Spencer on June 14, 2019, 12:53:02 PM
MarcZ,
Bleeding the M35A is fairly easy with only one complication.
I simply open the knurled knob (hopefully you know what and where that is... if not, I can add a pic) and put the key in the "run" position at the cockpit instrument panel.  The complication is that there is a much discussed circuit in the M35A and possibly other engines that stops the fuel pump if the oil pressure is zero but allows the fuel pump to run if the glow plugs are activated.  I don't like holding the key in the "glow" position for the length of time it takes to bleed the fuel system due to the the power drain and what I view as unnecessary wear and tear on the glow plugs.  So, when I'm bleeding the fuel system after changing filters, I cut a short piece of wire and short circuit the oil pressure switch allowing the fuel pump to run with the engine off and the key in the "run" position.  Pics below.  Maybe someday I'll make this semi-permanent and add a switch instead of the jumper wire.  I don't fill the filters with fuel before replacing them.  This seems like an opportunity to spill fuel given my occasional clumsy nature.  I simply let gravity and the fuel pump do its job and after a few minutes, the system is bled.  With practice, you will be able to tell the system is bled by the sound the fuel pump makes.
Others may have different approaches but this works for me.  MBMC

Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: Stu Jackson on June 14, 2019, 01:09:51 PM
What would be the recommended bleeding procedure for M35A ?

Mark,

Dave's right.  IIRC, he sparked a discussion in Critical Upgrades about just that topic.

I somewhat disagree with Ron on this.  I have NEVER tried to put diesel in any filter.  Why?  'Cuz when, not if, it spills, it stinks.

For my primary I fill most of it up with injector cleaner, simple, cheap and in a bottle.  The rest of getting the air out is well covered in Ken Heyman's Bleeding 101 Topic.

For my secondary, I pop the screw as I described earlier.  When I ever get around to doing it, that is.  :D

This, of course, is for an M25.  The M25XPs and the M35s have the oil pressure wiring for the fuel pump, as described by Dave here and elsewhere.  It makes NO sense to have to engage the glow plugs to run the pump for when you're bleeding the engine, while it may for other reasons.  After almost 12 years of covering this topic, I haven't found one yet, though.

Here's the Critical Upgrade topic, please read the links.  Since 2007!  :D

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.msg41829.html#msg41829
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: KWKloeber on June 14, 2019, 01:30:59 PM
Mark and Dave

There’s ANOTHER reason not the keep the preheat engaged besides the plugs. The cheap crappy OEM solenoid Westerbeke used is intermittent duty and I have had folks burn out those by preheating too long There’s discussion about replacing it with a better solenoid (in the 101 I believe).

Dave, You’ll notice the tabs on the switch are bent. They are straight on a new switch.
On the As and Bs harnesses, Westerbeke used SAE wire ( untinned, stiff not fine-stranded) not marine wire. (Hey it’s only a boat fer Pete’s sake) and vibration/flexing is transmitted to, and will break off, one or both tabs on that switch. The harness needs to be zip-tied so there’s NO movement possible relative to the switch.

Preheating on As and Bs also puts 12v, 13.5v, 14+v (pick the number depending on whether your charger is on) to the plugs that are rated 10v. Not good to do that fer too long.
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: Dave Spencer on June 14, 2019, 02:15:27 PM
Good observation Ken. Yes, the tabs are bent. I suspect from some previous manipulation although possibly due to stiff wire. At some point, I’d like to revisit that area and add a pressure sender and replace the voltmeter at the instrument panel with an oil pressure gauge. Has anyone done this?  What kind of thread on the sender will I need?  Is it a simple 1/8”NPT or something more exotic? 
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: KWKloeber on June 14, 2019, 03:55:45 PM
Dave

Eazy-peazy for you.
I did it on my m25 and did it on an XPB, and on two XPs (used Wb parts to relocate the oil switch off the block.)  Not quite as E-P.

The tee is indeed NPT (the hose is 1/8”-28 JIS x 1/8”-27 NPT.)  It’s there cuz Westerbeke/Universal panels have OP.  Catalina - Why would anyone want to know that? 

A Sierra or any OP sender using the Stewart Warner 80psi convention works.  I used a BWD S768 sender from O’Reilly $17 lifetime warranty on mine; on the others Faria gauges/senders.

Some relocate their hourmeter (if it’s separate) or the fuel gauge ( some builders put the fuel gauge at the nav.)
Title: Re: Secondary Fuel Filter
Post by: Dave Spencer on June 14, 2019, 04:18:54 PM
Great information Ken. Thanks. I definitely see the voltmeter as the gauge to sacrifice in favour of an oil pressure gauge. There’s merit to moving the fuel gauge since it isn’t something you need to refer to every few minutes but i want to retain it and don’t want to relocate it below decks. I count on my battery monitor and solar panel meter below decks to give me accurate house battery voltage and don’t need the cockpit gauge. Looks like a good off season project for this winter.