Naive question here, but I have not been able to find an answer through searching:
This being my first inboard motor, I am curious how to best get cooling water to it for running while on the hard. I assume you get a hose to the raw water intake somehow, but how do you hold it up there? Is there a way to seal it? (Do they make the equivalent of outboard "earmuffs"?)
Similarly, how to you get antifreeze to the system? Is it also done from outside the hull, or do you introduce it somewhere under the aft berth?
Getting familiar with the "101 Topics" is always helpful, in addition to the tech wiki. Here's how to do it properly:
Winterizing an Engine on the Hard (Thanks to Maine Sail) - NEVER connect a hose to your raw water pump inlet - NEVER!!!
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=873073&highlight=winterizing
Are you running it just to winterize?
Remove the sea water intake hose at the sea cock, and stick the end in a bucket of antifreeze.
Or do you need to run it longer?
-kk
I'm not on the hard yet, so just gathering info and needed parts in advance.
How long I need to run depends on when I do the oil change. If I can do it on the water just before haulout, than I'd just need to suck antifreeze. If I can't, then I need to run long enough to warm up the oil.
Which of these depends on a lot of factors, including weather windows and lift schedule. I have a 16 hour (2 day) run from my marina to my winter storage location. If I go straight into the slings, I'll have dirty oil in the motor. If I go to a slip for a couple days, I can change the oil before haulout. I do not want to put 16 hours on the motor after an oil change - would prefer to have new, acid-free oil in the motor during storage.
If you need to run on the hard for a few minutes take engine intake hose off seacock. Have your water tanks filled. Put bucket under head sink fill with water from head Fawcett leave Fawcett in bucket. Put engine hose in bucket start engine and quickly turn on head sink water Fawcett to keep water continuously in bucket. Run at no more than 50% power or it may want more water than Fawcett can put out. I have done this when I had clogged intake to get a short distance. I have also done this on hard to heat up engine oil prior to change.
Quote from: Breakin Away on October 06, 2016, 06:00:06 AM
.....................I do not want to put 16 hours on the motor after an oil change - would prefer to have new, acid-free oil in the motor during storage.
Really unnecessary, not an issue, but your boat, your choice. :D
As others have stated, take the hose off the seacock. Put the hose into a large bucket (cat litter bucket, or something around 3-5 gallons). Put the bucket next to the seacock. If there isn't enough hose to reach into the bucket, splice in a temporary extension. Fill the bucket with water. Put a petcock on the end of the hose (garden center on/off lever, $2). Run the engine. It will suck up water from the bucket. As it does that, you can meter more water going into the bucket by slightly opening up or closing the petcock on the hose. The more RPMs you run the engine, the more water it will suck up and the more you open the petcock. The engine isn't going to suck the water out of the bucket so fast that you can't meter water going in. Even at full throttle, it doesn't go down that fast. When I winterize, before running pink antifreeze through the engine, I run fresh water through the engine just like how I'm explaining. I run it for at least 15 minutes or so to get the engine up to operating temperature. Then I shut it down, pour antifreeze into the bucket. I can fit about 3 gallons in the bucket. I have two more gallons, with the foil seal off the bottle, ready to dump into the bucket as it is going down. I end up putting at least 5 gallons through the system. Once the bucket is empty, I shut the engine down. Engine now winterized with antifreeze.
The important thing here is DO NOT FORCE WATER INTO THE ENGINE ie. Do not attach a pressured water supply hose to the engine!
Let the engine suck the water it needs from a bucket, and make sure nobody is beneath the exhaust where the water will come out.
Paul
Breaking : Do as Roc suggested. I'm sure that you can get by with 2 gallons of the "purple" lower temp antifreeze. I like the power temp stuff which I sucked up directly from the bottles.
Then take a small bucket/coffee can and change the Zn in the heat exchanger. The anti freeze in the HX will come out into the bucket/can when you remove old Zn.
Insert a new pencil Zn and now you're really winterized!! (because the HX is empty and the muffler full of AF)
A few thoughts
Hi,
When I have to run the engin out of water.
Take the intake hose off the seacock and put in a bucket.
Have a garden hose ready and fill the bucket with water.
Start engine, and come back to fill bucket with the garden hose, it will empty quickly.
When ran enough, go turn off engine.
NEVER PUT PRESSURISED WATER DIRECTLY INTO INTAKE HOSE.
When ready to winterize engine, do same but with a 5 gallon of anti freeze.
Quote from: Ron Hill on October 06, 2016, 01:16:12 PM
Breaking : Do as Roc suggested. I'm sure that you can get by with 2 gallons of the "purple" lower temp antifreeze. I like the power temp stuff which I sucked up directly from the bottles.
Then take a small bucket/coffee can and change the Zn in the heat exchanger. The anti freeze in the HX will come out into the bucket/can when you remove old Zn.
Insert a new pencil Zn and now you're really winterized!! (because the HX is empty and the muffler full of AF)
A few thoughts
Actually, I'm replacing the zinc pencil this weekend. There's too much missing from the current one to wait any longer. Plus, the HX is empty now after inspecting, so if I replace it now I don't have to contend with the mess again.
FWIW, on my boat there is no way to get any coffee can or anything else rigid under the plug. There's too much stuff in the way. The best I could do was to get a baggie under there, plus a wee wee pad to catch what the bag missed.
As for sucking the water in, MaineSail shows him taking the hose off at the other end and sucking the water from a bucket in the cockpit. That would seem to allow better runoff of any overflow from the bucket (especially for those of us with walk-through transoms). Also less potential of messing up the aft berth.
Any reason why his method doesn't work on the C34? (Poor motor access maybe?)
Why would you have overflow from a bucket you're drawing down, unless you're not paying attention. Put a plastic garden hose quarter turn shutoff on the hose to modulate the supply.
You access the seawater pump at the front of the engine (cover), just pull off the hose and replace with another length of cheap vinyl hose.
Quote from: KWKloeber on October 06, 2016, 02:25:13 PM
Why would you have overflow from a bucket you're drawing down, unless you're not paying attention. Put a plastic garden hose quarter turn shutoff on the hose to modulate the supply.
You access the seawater pump at the front of the engine (cover), just pull off the hose and replace with another length of cheap vinyl hose.
I'm just going off what I saw on his video. I guess more than spill control, the main benefit seems to be the comfort of working in the cockpit instead of in the cramped aft berth. And being in the cockpit allows quicker access to the kill valve if anything goes wrong or you reach the end of the antifreeze.
I'll look closer at the raw water pump when I'm down there, but I seem to recall that it's a particularly bad design for replacing the impeller, because you have to remove the whole pump to do it, and the screws or nuts are on the back side. Hopefully the hose fitting is more accessible than that.
Oh jeez you have the Sherwood POC pump? Do yourself a big favor and install the Oberdorfer pump!
Quote from: Breakin Away on October 06, 2016, 02:38:37 PM..........................................
.....................................................................
I'll look closer at the raw water pump when I'm down there, but I seem to recall that it's a particularly bad design for replacing the impeller, because you have to remove the whole pump to do it, and the screws or nuts are on the back side. .............
Except that you don't have to remove the pump to get the faceplate off. And shouldn't. It's just a PITA to do.
Ken K wrote the quintessential description of the disadvantages of the Sherwood pumps in the tech wiki under engines.
I flush my engine with fresh water every weekend when getting ready to go home. This obviously works on the hard as well.
It could not be easier.
Close seacock
Open strainer
Have water hose ready to go
Wife fires up engine and I add water to the strainer.
Done.
Works great for winterizing...just pour AF in the strainer.
I like the strainer idea, so long as you have a mate to handle the engine part. But I would have been concerned that the strainer gives too little margin for error in matching the rate. I do have a ball valve termination for the garden hose, but it doesn't control rate that precisely. Sounds like it's simpler than I thought.
Exactly
We tend NOT to say "you're making too much of this". LOL
The strainer method...
I have a nozzle on the end of the hose, if I use too much water, it overflows into the bilge. Not enough, you can see the water level drop in the strainer. I'm sure my 10 year old grandson could do this just fine.
You have a MkII, so.... in the aft cabin, take off the cover that is over the seacock area. You now can fit a large bucket in that recess area, right next to the seacock and run the raw water hose into it. If you open the aft cabin hatch, you now can run the garden hose through the hatch and into the bucket. As the engine runs, you can see the water in the bucket go down. Just reach your hand through the hatch and open the petcock to let more water in. Do the same as you're putting antifreeze. You can do all this while standing in the cockpit, and looking at the situation through the hatch.
Oh, I forgot about the escape hatch (not at the boat now). That makes it all a lot more convenient.
Quote
a lot more convenient.
You'll find there isn't much voodoo to catalina ownership and like (too?) many things in life there's oftentimes (too?) many ways to skin a beast and you'll settle into your own routine based on what ends up being comfy to you. So throw off the bowlines and experiment with different techniques no matter what it involves for your own learning experiences and peace of mind. :santa :santa
A point I didn't articulate was, when you are done, you are going to access the sea water pump anyway, and remove/inspect the impeller, leave it out for the lay up, etc. You have the hose kill, the engine kill lever, and the 12 volt (alarm) kill on the panel, all right there accessible. Before or during the lay up would be a good time to install a remote start switch -- I bought a double pole, 3-position toggle switch [OFF / ON (preheat on/off) - MOM ON (start) ] to wire in for a remote start.
Also, remember to let me know the OD you need for the sealing ring. :D
-kk
Quote from: Stu Jackson on October 06, 2016, 03:59:10 PM
quintessential description of the disadvantages of the Sherwood pumps in the tech wiki under engines.
Attached is actually the best description of disadvantages of a Sherwood (what happened to an M35B owner)! :shock: :shock: :shock:
-kk
And there is a step-by-step How To right there in the C34 tech wiki to make the change to the Oberdorfer pump.
Quote
And there is a step-by-step How To right there in the C34 tech wiki to make the change to the Oberdorfer pump.
There is for the M-25/XPs, but I don't believe for the B-series engines there is a step-by-step posted. But the Ob pump is a straight replacement for the Sherwood (unless you use the kit that I provide to replace the OEM bolts with studs/nylock flange nuts, to secure the pump clips, but that's a minor change.)
-kk
Quote from: KWKloeber on October 07, 2016, 01:18:40 PM
Quote
And there is a step-by-step How To right there in the C34 tech wiki to make the change to the Oberdorfer pump.
There is for the M-25/XPs, but I don't believe for the B-series engines there is a step-by-step posted. But the Ob pump is a straight replacement for the Sherwood (unless you use the kit that I provide to replace the OEM bolts with studs/nylock flange nuts, to secure the pump clips, but that's a minor change.)
-kk
http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Replacing_a_Sherwood_Water_Pump_with_an_Oberdorfer
M35 A & B are discussed.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on October 07, 2016, 02:15:46 PM
Quote from: KWKloeber on October 07, 2016, 01:18:40 PM
Quote
And there is a step-by-step How To right there in the C34 tech wiki to make the change to the Oberdorfer pump.
There is for the M-25/XPs, but I don't believe for the B-series engines there is a step-by-step posted. But the Ob pump is a straight replacement for the Sherwood (unless you use the kit that I provide to replace the OEM bolts with studs/nylock flange nuts, to secure the pump clips, but that's a minor change.)
-kk
http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Replacing_a_Sherwood_Water_Pump_with_an_Oberdorfer
M35 A & B are discussed.
True, however the 35B how-to is using the bastardized Ob 202m-16 pump, not the one-for-one replacement for the Sherwood, which is much easier to use and there's other benefits to it vs using the -16 pump.
ken
Guys : If that internal slotted tang on that gear breaks (regardless of engine) - it doesn't make one bit of difference what water pump you have!! You are screwed!! :cry4`
In this particular case the owner may? not have heeded the Westerbeke service bulletin (M35B & M25XPB) that said there was a sleeve that should be installed over that slotted tang on the engine gear and the mating tang on the water pump?!
A thought
Just the Facts, m'am....
1. The M35B in that picture HAD the reinforcing collar in place.
2. I've done marine pumps for 20 years, so I have some hands-on experience;
3. The IRON-body Westerbeke pump (yes, Wb owns that pump) tends to seize and snap off the fork on the camshaft gear;
4. The BRONZE Oberdorfer pump doesn't tend to seize up and snap off the fork;
5. The fork broke BECAUSE that IRON-body pump was on that engine - it would still be intact if the Ob pump was on the engine;
6. Wb devised the retrofit reinforcing collar because of early on, the number of times its pump destroyed the gear fork;
7. Early on, Wb covered its mistake by offering a free reinforcing ring and pump gasket, and paid for parts and labor to replace a broken cam shaft;
8. When that got too expensive, Wb covered its butt by issuing the 2013 warning to inspect its pump, because of it's tendency to seize up, EVERY TIME the engine is operated;
9. No leeway on that maintenance schedule allowed by Wb;
10. Since 2013 will pay for nothing on the repair, NOR will Wb even supply the missing reinforcing ring;
11. I know of five other Catalina owners where the IRON-body pump destroyed the pump drive fork, and two were not the B-series engines -- at least two chose to replace theirs with an electric pump over doing an engine job.
Pop quiz - how can Beta Marine marineize the same Kubota block and not experience the same sea water pump problem? Simple - it doesn't use an IRON-body pump that seizes up. No D'oh in the Beta Marine engineering department.
One's Boat, One's Choice whether to devote the time to maintain a pump on a daily basis. But I wonder, again, why owners tend to defend companies that used inferior parts or poor design on their boats and who don't stand behind it's product? I have my theory, but it's an interesting question about human nature.
-kk
Quote from: KWKloeber on October 08, 2016, 04:03:36 PM
<<<SNIP>>>But I wonder, again, why owners tend to defend companies that used inferior parts or poor design on their boats and who don't stand behind it's product? I have my theory, but it's an interesting question about human nature.
And I reflect your wonder why C34 skippers who have Sherwood pumps on their boats keep using them,
regardless of what engine they may have.
But look, Ken, you've done just about all you could to save them from themselves. We are truly thankful for your contributions.
This is NOT a case of Your boat, your choice.
We've warned people, over & over again about wiring harnesses, alternator brackets, you name it.
Some folks, even if they've found this website, just don't listen.
In that case: their boat, their choice.
Quote from: KWKloeber on October 08, 2016, 04:03:36 PM
Just the Facts, m'am....
1. The M35B in that picture HAD the reinforcing collar in place.
2. I've done marine pumps for 20 years, so I have some hands-on experience;
3. The IRON-body Westerbeke pump (yes, Wb owns that pump) tends to seize and snap off the fork on the camshaft gear;
4. The BRONZE Oberdorfer pump doesn't tend to seize up and snap off the fork;
5. The fork broke BECAUSE that IRON-body pump was on that engine - it would still be intact if the Ob pump was on the engine;
6. Wb devised the retrofit reinforcing collar because of early on, the number of times its pump destroyed the gear fork;
7. Early on, Wb covered its mistake by offering a free reinforcing ring and pump gasket, and paid for parts and labor to replace a broken cam shaft;
8. When that got too expensive, Wb covered its butt by issuing the 2013 warning to inspect its pump, because of it's tendency to seize up, EVERY TIME the engine is operated;
9. No leeway on that maintenance schedule allowed by Wb;
10. Since 2013 will pay for nothing on the repair, NOR will Wb even supply the missing reinforcing ring;
11. I know of five other Catalina owners where the IRON-body pump destroyed the pump drive fork, and two were not the B-series engines -- at least two chose to replace theirs with an electric pump over doing an engine job.
Pop quiz - how can Beta Marine marineize the same Kubota block and not experience the same sea water pump problem? Simple - it doesn't use an IRON-body pump that seizes up. No D'oh in the Beta Marine engineering department.
One's Boat, One's Choice whether to devote the time to maintain a pump on a daily basis. But I wonder, again, why owners tend to defend companies that used inferior parts or poor design on their boats and who don't stand behind it's product? I have my theory, but it's an interesting question about human nature.
-kk
I too know of far too many engines destroyed or severely damaged by the iron body Sherwood pump. The Sherwood pump is complete and utter rubbish.
This was the last one I did, a Catalina 30 that failed a buyers survey, and the owner got very, very lucky. The shaft to the pump sheared off instead of the cam driven shaft in the engine. Still this little mishap cost the owner $6000.00 and an additional two years on the market after the buyer got cold feet and walked..
If you have a Sherwood pump REPLACE IT NOW!!!!!
(http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/164245732.jpg)
That said I would strongly advise against replacing a RWP with an electric pump. It is usually cheaper to replace the gear cam than an entire engine, when the owner hydro-locks it due to incorrect flow.
Changing out the Sherwood was the first thing I did on my 1990 C30 with a M3-20 Universal before I even left the seller's slip to move it to Anacortes from Blaine. The pump was already weeping and was on the verge of seizing.
Craig
Winterization tips...
I haven't read for for accuracy; correctness, etc, just passing it along
http://www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/cruising-tips/snow-sleet-and-storms/
-kk