Hey, so after exhaustive searches of the message board, it seems that Honda 1000 or 2000 series generators are the way to go. What I did not find however was conclusions to mounting/usage/running locations. Seems that (for storage) some put in the port locker, other in the rear, some in the cockpit? Running them I only found a couple of references and they seemed to be in front of the mast. There were a couple of mentions of building "boxes" with insulation, but I never did see that these came to fruition. I see where Ron runs his on a knee pad and that in the bow is way to prone to vibration. This is what I want to do and if you all could help me out with pros and cons or be blunt and tell me I am way of base that would be helpful. The local Honda dealer couldn't quite grasp it, more into RV then marine applications.
I want to build a box that I will mount either on the swim ladder and to the rail or on the starboard side of the stern pulpit. The box I am thinking will be vented on the back panel with the top hinged as well as a "door" for the pull cord. An option I was thinking of was a "bathroom" fan/vent that I would plug into the second outlet, may be overkill, haven't decided. This is where the generator will live. I will secure it in the box and don't want to mess with it. The main use will be during racing to charge the batteries. Then when cruising to keep topped up (less power cruising then racing).
So the questions are:
1. Has anyound done this or do you just run them exposed? Exhaust is hot, does the plastic stay coolish?
2. Do any of you run your generator while under way?(this will be the main time it is run) If so do you have it gimballed or does it work OK?
3. How do you have it connected? 15amp single cord to a 30amp converter into the shorepower connector? Special dual 15amp cords to single 30amp connector into the shorepower(I saw this on an RV site, not sure if it would work) Hard wired directly into the charger? DC charging cable and bypass the charger?
4. Are these OK with the foam padding to absorb the vibration? Does that impede air flow?
This is going to be my spring project. Installation mid May and test in June. Any and all feedback is appreciated. thanks, Joel
I have no experience with the generators but I have a couple of thoughts, FWIW. Seems to me you might have some problems running it in a box. It will generate a lot of heat that you have to get rid of. Also you have to get rid of exhaust gasses while providing fresh air for the intake. I understand that they are very quiet running so the only reason for a box would be to protect from the elements, I think. But if you still want to go the box route you might try building a prototype and testing it in your backyard where you can easily monitor temperature and so forth. Good luck.
JKAR
Sounds like an interesting project!
Have you considered solar. No smell, no noise, no vibrations. We run a 125 watt panel on the davits, and a 75 watt on each side of the bimini. We go unplugged all season. In full sun the panels make around 15 amps. Even in cloudy weather they always seem to giving a 3-4 amps. The system is one of the best improvements we have made to the boat.
Food for thought
Cory
Quote from: jkar on April 07, 2010, 01:52:22 PM
Hey, so after exhaustive searches of the message board, it seems that Honda 1000 or 2000 series generators are the way to go. What I did not find however was conclusions to mounting/usage/running locations. Seems that (for storage) some put in the port locker, other in the rear, some in the cockpit?
How do you have it connected? 15amp single cord to a 30amp converter into the shorepower connector? Special dual 15amp cords to single 30amp connector into the shorepower(I saw this on an RV site, not sure if it would work) Hard wired directly into the charger? DC charging cable and bypass the charger?
Joel, the reason is that everyone who has one has a different way to do it, which I've learned from reading everything you have and I don't even have a generator, or plan on getting one. :D But since he wants one, let's not wander off into solar or wind generators, it simply ain't fair to the question(er).
The storage issue is simply based on the 1000 vs. 2000 unit. The bigger one doesn't fit in the port locker, period. So...there isn't a choice.
The most electrically intelligent way to do it is to wire the 120V output to the shorepower inlet. Any other way makes no sense. The basic concept here is to use it for charging, so wiring it to the shorepower inlet which is just like using the generator to "replace" the shorepower when you're on the hook, is the way to do it. All you need is a pigtail adapter and the appropriate length of power cord for where you plan to locate the unit.
jkar : There have been a number of posts on this topic. I see the you have a standard transom so here's what I do with the same transom. Walk thur transom people usuallu run the Honda under the helm seat.
I run my Honda 1000 only when at anchor (NEVER underway), that's why I have a hi-output alternator.
I usually run it on the port side just fwd of the vented stanchion, with the exhaust facing fwd (wind dissipates the exhaust).
If is raining I run the Honda setting on the port side of the aft lazetette with the exhaust facing aft.
Why the port side? so I can plug into the shore power receptacle - 15 amp cord to 30 amp adapter.
The 110v charge goes into the shore power receptacle which goes to the battery charger which charges the batteries.
I also mentioned that I set my Honda on a foam pad (garden kneeling pad) to eliminate any the vibration.
A few thoughts
Stu;
Iv'e carried the Honda 2000 in my Port locker for about 4 years ( it does fit, you just need to tip it sideways, and push it under the port windlass.) (Make SURE the gas tank isn't full).
I've only needed it twice while anchored out for 3 days to make hot water and then re-charge the batteries.
I ran it in the cockpit all the way aft. Propped it up level with make-shift plywood bracket. With a nomal airflow, it should vent down wind. Noise was negligible. (They are very quiet).
These generators are very marketable items, and I would think if it is easily seen, it will probably dissapear.
Iv'e had no issues running the hot water heater,or the 20 amp Charles charger, but not at the same time.
Steve
Steve, that's great news that a 2000 can fit in there. First I can recall hearing about. Sheds a brand new light on the choice between a 1000 and a 2000, regardless of intended use (i.e., charger only or hot water, too :D), eh?
Thanks a lot for that.
Joel,
I can't add much to what has been said since I have the 2000 and run it on the swim platform as we have a walk thru transom. That said, if you only want to charge your batteries go with the 1000. You will need the 2000 if you want to be able to use the hot water heater, microwave (if you have one), hair dryer, etc. If you don't need the generator for the creature comforts then go with the 2000: lighter weight. less expensive and perhaps smaller (not sure if there is a size difference). I would also caution you NOT to store a gas generator in a locker unless you run the tank dry. Gas vapors will find their way into the bilge or engine compartment where you don't want them.
If I were going to permanently install the Honda I would not hang it on the rail. With the outboard, flag, fishing rod holders, life ring, stern perch seats, etc there really isn't much room left. The theft issue is also a big concern. The Mk 1's have a huge lazarette, I think I would build a sealed box (similiar to propane locker) there. Fashion an exhaust extension out of copper tubing routed aft thru the transom. Some sort of asbestos seal would need to be McGuivered where the exhaust tube leaves the box. Add a couple of vent tubes forward to the cockpit, perhaps a 12v exhaust fan will be needed to help control the box temperature. A rough sketch, I added it to the stbd side to help counteract the port list.
I am dubious about using this while racing. I would not want to be sailing in your "dirty air" :shock:
Seriously, I am not sure that you could make any setup safe enough to use while underway, although Ken has given it a pretty good shot. (Remember that naything that is gas-run would need the fan to be spark-proof and vented for at least one minute before starting up). One question to get answered would be how much heel the generator can take and still run safely and reliably.
I am pretty sure that those of us that use the Honda only do so at anchor or while tied up. Preferably while far away from other boats so as not to spoil their peace on the water..
Purpose-built generators like Fischer-Panda are probably better suited for a boat that is underway. I am guessing that you are looking at this for long distance racing, so be aware that the Honda has a fairly small gas tank, and you would be looking at refilling every few hours, even if you can find a way to make it safe.
Tony
My friend bought a Yamaha generator and it had a 'propane' option that he ordered when he purchased it. His now runs on propane. He buys the little bottles used for gas grills. He runs the generator before going to bed, using it to power the air conditioner. He says it lasts at least 4 hours. When the propane runs out, the generator shuts down. I guess if he wanted to run it longer, he could get a larger bottle, or maybe plumb it into his stove propane tank. I don't have a generator, but if I did ever get one, I would look into this option because I like this idea of powering with propane, no issue with CO vapors or gasoline vapors.
Guys : A word of caution about tipping any 4 cycle engine on it side too long.
I'd ask Honda: 1. Which side to tilt it on?
2. How long can it be tilted before the oil in the crank case moves to/past the piston?
I say that because the increased height of the 2000 over the 1000 Honda requires that on a MK I it needs to be pushed well fwd and to the port side of the hull in the lazerette. The generator handle must be fwd of the port side combing storage. The 2000 will store there, but it is not easily accessable to get in there or out.
Maybe the tipping is a non problem, but I'd surely ask Honda the question. A thought
Quote from: Roc on April 08, 2010, 12:50:08 PM
.... I like this idea of powering with propane, no issue with CO vapors or gasoline vapors.
Why would there be no issue with CO vapors? Wouldn't the exhaust from propane combustion kill you just as handily as gasoline?
I believe that the exhaust would be carbon dioxide and water vapor for the most part. There is a bit of unburnt hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide, but not very much. This is why they use propane powered forklifts inside warehouses.
That said, you would still not want to run the generator without good ventilation and you especially would not want to run the generator inside the cabin. Even trace amounts of CO can build-up without ventilation..
Cheers,
Rick
Thanks everybody. I found another Honda dealer, this time he was a boater, power, but at least he could grasp the idea. He talked me into a 2000 v 1000. "For an extra $200 you get twice the output, and you can find 15lbs to lose somewhere else" was his quote. I shared my thoughts and yours and he agreed with most all of them. For a box, it does need to be vented, a fan is too much. He suggested more of an "open" plan with back plane to re-direct what little noise there is, sides and a hinged top, no "front", leave it open on that side. I asked about rain/water, he said it would have to come down pretty hard to stop the generator, that the top was a "feel good" idea and could be left off. He then went back and said the rest was a bit much as these are super quiet, that a platform is all that is really needed, but I still want a little barrier between it an the cockpit. The airflow is from the sides so padding to help dampen the vibration would be OK. To keep it simple run the 15/20a cord to a 30a pigtail into the shorepower. The big part was keeping it fairly level. Bouncing around on the hook is perfectly fine, landing off 6-8 footers, not so good. Hey questioned if I would ever run it then. While it would not be ideal, there have been 24 periods where it has been constant. So he said definitely compensate for the angle of heel. So I will start construction this weekend. It is going to be a couple of weeks until he gets in more 2000s, I will then be able to test. Thanks again for all the input. Joel
I'm in the process of installing AC on Eximius and will be using our Honda EU2000i Companion generator.
Jkar, did you ever complete the 'box' or platform for your Honda?
Thanks.
Paul
We have had a 2000 for 6 years and it is great. We have a 2000 MKII so it fits in the port locker no problem. No matter what you do make sure you can secure it so it will not grow feet. I am looking at having a stand build out of SS to install in front of the mast to put it on when at anchor. It will have rubber bushings to damper the vibration. They are very quiet so not worried about noise. Will lock it to the stand and mast.
I have seen a couple of boats that have their generator in use on the cabin top, but am always surprised.
My concern is the risk of CO building up in the cabin.
True, if there is plenty of wind, and at anchor, the dilution is probably ok, but still a risk.
and if the A/C is running then all ports are probably closed as would be the companionway entrance.
Osha, (SWMBO) would not sleep for fear of CO buildup.
So my plan is to mount the Generator on the seat behind the wheel and have some kind of cover/box to ensure that the exhaust is exported over the stern.
Hence my question about box construction.
Paul
Hi Paul,
Buy a bunch of CO detectors and mount them around the inside of the boat. This way you can rest more securely about CO making it's way in with the generator.
LOL, we have a CO detector in the Cabin, we just have to remove the batteries when we leave the boat empty at the dock! The gas from the batteries sets off the alarm!
My wife is a (retired) CCRN with 30+ years in nursing, she has seen the consequences of CO poisoning. It's not nice.
Paul
Having false alarms makes it difficult to know when a problem is really happening. Does anyone know how to stop the battery gassing from tripping a CO detector? Or are there some CO detectors that are less likely to be triggered by such a situation (like fire detectors you can buy that are more suitable to be placed near a kitchen or stove and won't have false alarms).
Quote from: britinusa on November 10, 2015, 05:32:44 AM
LOL, we have a CO detector in the Cabin, we just have to remove the batteries when we leave the boat empty at the dock! The gas from the batteries sets off the alarm!
I would double check with another alarm that it is not a CO buildup using another brand alarm. I leave my CO detector on at the dock and battery gassing has no effect. My understanding is that batteries will give of hydrogen not CO. Either hydrogen buildup or CO can be serious.
Mark
Paul- i agree with you concerns about generator exhaust fumes posing a hazard. What I wonder is if there are some other issues at work with your particular CO dectector and/or your charging and battery system as well. I have a CO detector in salon and aft cabin as well as a Fireboy fume dector in the bilge, and flooded batteries, and have never had a false alarm issue. Maybe I'm just lucky?
There was a report a few years ago from Michael in Canada who had detector issues. He traced it down to both bad battery and charger issues. I'll spend some time and find it. Normally, regular charging shouldn't be doing that.
For fire alarms, and maybe the same holds true for CO detectors, is if the sensor accumulates dust, it can trigger the alarm. That's why it's suggested to vacuum the alarm and clean out the dust inside.
FYI, the CO detector started false alarming the first night after it was installed.
I'm paying very close attention to Jon W's thread on his Electrical Installation. But that's another thread.
Sticking with the issue for the Generator and keeping CO out of the cabin. Things to address include reducing the itch to have someone else taking a liking to our Honda, Keeping it dry, CO over the stern, and happy wife.
8)
Paul
Quote from: Stu Jackson on November 10, 2015, 09:54:56 AM
There was a report a few years ago from Michael in Canada who had detector issues. He traced it down to both bad battery and charger issues. I'll spend some time and find it. Normally, regular charging shouldn't be doing that.
Here's the link.
CO Mystery:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4313.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4313.0.html)
Really, Stu! 5 pages! Still not sure what solved "the mystery". LOL! Bad battery charger?
Quote from: Noah on November 10, 2015, 06:50:59 PM
Really, Stu! 5 pages! Still not sure what solved "the mystery". LOL! Bad battery charger?
That's what I remember.
I did a Member Search on "Michael" and found this post.
There may be more from him.
I'll keep looking, but we all can as well.
When is the generator going to be used? probably at anchor or on a mooring. Unless you are in a bad current situation, the stern will be down wind. The shore power connection is in the stern, put the generator somewhere in the cockpit with the exhaust pointing aft and CO build up should not be a problem. If the current is the overriding concern, move the generator so the exhaust is pointing down wind. You probably have a 50" shore power cord so it can go anywhere on the boat. My H2000 has lived it's whole life under the cockpit table just in front of the pedestal. Still plenty of room for the Admiral and I to eat at the cockpit table. If we have guests it gets temporarily moved somewhere out of the way. In use it points aft out the walk thru transom with a short pigtail to the shore power inlet. I use a cable bicycle lock to secure it to pedestal and had the pedestal cover enlarged to cover it when we are not on the boat. In 8 or 9 seasons it has yet to grow feet and walk away. Under way if there is enough wind to sail, CO will not be a problem, if there isn't enough wind, the motor will be running (except racing) so it won't be used. If racing in a low wind situation, brief the watch standers about the dangers, if they can smell the exhaust, then either move the generator or move the crew out of danger. Lets not make a mountain our of a mole hill.
I don't believe he has a walk-though transom. But "air conditioned racing"...what's not to like?!!! :clap
The Generator would (normally) only be running when at Anchor or Mooring.
I would consider building a 'box' inside the aft locker as has been mentioned earlier in this thread.
But for the time being (until I retire and run out of other boat & home projects) the Genny will just sit aft of the wheel on top of the locker/helmseat.
I'll tie it down with some webbing straps and put a rain shield over it.
I'm ready to install a smart plug and socket on the boat/shore power cable (thanks Ken) and I'll probably make up a short cord from the Genny to the shore power receptacle (port side) rather than have 50' of cable sitting between the genny and power receptacle.
Paul
Quote from: Noah on November 10, 2015, 06:50:59 PM
Really, Stu! 5 pages! Still not sure what solved "the mystery". LOL! Bad battery charger?
Noah,
It was "buried" in the quantity of text:
Reply #44: (by me (Stu)) --- I also believe that you may now have concluded that the CO alarm, which started this whole thread, can be attributed to the batteries being charged (or overcharged) by the Flyback nonsense.
Reply #58:
by Michael
1. the propane monitor and carbon monoxide monitors aboard Hali were being triggered by hydrogen boiled off the new house batteries during charging by the old Flyback 20-3 battery charger. We could not make any other theory fit all the known facts.
7. following advice from here and other threads, we junked the Alltech Flyback 20-3 battery charger...and are glad of it.
Oh Carp, something else I have to look into! :cry4`
Paul
Thx Stu! A good smart charger is the way to go, Paul. I like my ProMariner ProNautic 1240P with remote panel. The exact same charger is also sold under the Sterling brand.
Quote from: Noah on November 11, 2015, 12:06:55 PM
Thx Stu! A good smart charger is the way to go, Paul. I like my ProMariner ProNautic 124oP with remote panel.
Paul, that is the very one that is included in the "Electrical Systems 101" topic, "How to wire a charger," by Maine Sail. It is a superb charger.
I think the link is broken on that topic. Jon W.
Quote from: Jon W on November 11, 2015, 08:22:07 PM
I think the link is broken on that topic. Jon W.
Alternate link - http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/installing_a_marine_battery_charger
k
Thanks for noting that, Jon, and Ken for the link. I updated the Electrical Systems 101 topic. FYI, sbo recently updated their software, which may have broken some links. If you find any more broken links, please let me know. Many of the topics on Maine Sail's website were also publsihed on sbo. I found the sbo more "readable" visually.
Stu,
Was this the SBO post?
Marine Battery Chargers - Installation Tips & Considerations
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/marine-battery-chargers-installation-tips-considerations.136765/#post-880275
k
Yes, thanks, I stuck it back into the E101.
I tried several sailboatowners links on the Electrical 101 site. None seemd to connect to the source data. Jon W.
Quote from: Jon W on November 12, 2015, 02:03:44 PM
I tried several sailboatowners links on the Electrical 101 site. None seemd to connect to the source data. Jon W.
Stu,
It looks like SBO completely revamped the paths to the posts. I searched for a couple subjects that are on "electrical 101," and at the bottom is what SBO did -- the URL:
On the top is the link on 101.
Below it is the current URL.
We can't even substitute some of the text in the original link to form a new URL. Crap, I bet any and all SBO links you have on C34 are now pretty much useless. Darnit.
Not only on C34, but also any of the "old style" links that are in the SBO posts are also dead. Yah'd think that when SBO did this, it would have provided a pathway for an old link to find its way to the new URLs?
kk
(101) starting loads:
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=102027
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/engine-starting-video-real-world-amp-load-data.102027/#post-571653
(101) wal*mart battery:
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=136852
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/6-year-wal-mart-battery-observations.136852/#post-878445
Thanks, Ken & Jon, for picking up on that.
I'll write to Phil and post a note on the 101 about this.
Quote from: KWKloeber on November 12, 2015, 02:55:53 PM
We can't even substitute some of the text in the original link to form a new URL.
Not only on C34, but also any of the "old style" links that are in the SBO posts are also dead.
kk
Not so fast Ken you dummy.
There is a way..... relatively simple substitution.
Do you have the ability to globally find/replace?
This is the old "101" URL:
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=
102027This is the new URL:
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/engine-starting-video-real-world-amp-load-data.102027/
And, this URL will redirect you to the new URL
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/102027HOWEVER, using the "Catalina" URL will not redirect:
http://forums.
catalina.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/102027
So, to edit the old URL,
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=102027
[
bold strike thru] delete; [
bold blue] add.
(note I inserted spaces to make it all more readable.)
http://forums.
catalina. sailboatowners.com/
showthread index .php?
threads/ t= 102027
Quote from: KWKloeber on November 12, 2015, 03:34:31 PM
Do you have the ability to globally find/replace?
I don't know. Only Dave Sanner, our webmaster will know. Let me hear back from Phil.
Damn, I made that complicated! An easier edit:
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t= 102027
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/ 102027
Forest/trees thing?
k
Phil just got back to me and he may be able to do a redirect on his end.
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/engine-starting-video-real-world-amp-load-data.102027/ (http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/engine-starting-video-real-world-amp-load-data.102027/)
:santa
Paul
Quote from: Stu Jackson on November 12, 2015, 03:43:35 PM
Phil just got back to me and he may be able to do a redirect on his end.
All fixed. Let me know if you find any that don't work. Thanks again for the heads up, and thanks to Phil for "fixin' it."