Noticed this discolouration under the water pump (I believe), and thought I'd ask here is there is something to be concerned about.
The engine has less than 900 hours on it, and I've never found any water there, but clearly something is going on.
Thoughts?
pby : I make a small wad of toilet paper and stuff it in the bottom weep hole of the Sherwood. Run the engine a bit and then check that wad for wetness. Also check around the hoses leading to and from the Sherwood
A few thoughts
Quote from: Ron Hill on May 27, 2024, 02:07:08 PMpby : I make a small wad of toilet paper and stuff it in the bottom weep hole of the Sherwood. Run the engine a bit and then check that wad for wetness. Also check around the hoses leading to and from the Sherwood
A few thoughts
Will do! As always thank you Ron. I'm assuming this weeping hole is there to alert you to something that needs fixed? :cry4`
The telltale weep hole is sending you a silent Mayday that the pump seal is leaking.
How tight is the engine belt? Within spec/too tight?
Remove the belt and see if the shaft will wobble. The pump seal and shaft and bearing can be replaced but the cost of getting the pump serviced might not be worth it compared to a new one.
There is an oddity on the B engines -- there are two different Kubota pumps with different P/Ns
and impeller sizes. Apparently, the pump capacity was insufficient and the impeller size was increased, which necessitated a whole string of changes at the front end of the engine.
Take your old mump to the dealer to match it up to be sure.
If instead you want to order the rebuilding parts they are in the Kubota parts manual on the TechWiki.
Thanks Ken for all those details. Mine is nice and dry at the moment but I am making note for the inevitable future!
Quote from: waughoo on May 28, 2024, 01:26:39 PMThanks Ken for all those details. Mine is nice and dry at the moment but I am making note for the inevitable future!
I found a C36 couple who replaced theirs w/ a Kubota -- but naturally never put the correct part number in their blog -- only explained that there were two sizes. ARRRRGH!
That's when you know someone is trying to hear themselves talk rather than wanting to help others.
pby : Yes, the weep holes are there to let you know that water OR a oil seal needs to be changed!! :thumb:
A thought
Quote from: KWKloeber on May 28, 2024, 02:05:25 PMQuote from: waughoo on May 28, 2024, 01:26:39 PMThanks Ken for all those details. Mine is nice and dry at the moment but I am making note for the inevitable future!
I found a C36 couple who replaced theirs w/ a Kubota -- but naturally never put the correct part number in their blog -- only explained that there were two sizes. ARRRRGH!
That's when you know someone is trying to hear themselves talk rather than wanting to help others.
Is this it? https://www.gciron.com/Kubota_Parts_16241_73037_PUMP_WATER_ASSY_p/ku-16241-73037.htm
Quote from: Ron Hill on May 29, 2024, 03:00:11 PMpby : Yes, the weep holes are there to let you know that water or a oil seal needs to be changed!! :thumb:
A thought
I put the wad in but it fell out, and was dry. :? Not sure when it fell out.
I did touch the weep hole and I felt nothing, so I don't understand where the discolouration is coming from. If it was truly weeping, wouldn't it be obvious?
Quote from: KWKloeber on May 27, 2024, 09:28:47 PMThe telltale weep hole is sending you a silent Mayday that the pump seal is leaking.
How tight is the engine belt? Within spec/too tight?
I can rotate the belt 90 degrees on the longest run of the belt, and if anything might be a touch loose as it seems to deflect more than 1". But there's no squealling and charging and exhaust water seem to be as expected.
Quote from: pbyrne on June 04, 2024, 09:58:26 AMI can rotate the belt 90 degrees on the longest run of the belt, and if anything might be a touch loose as it seems to deflect more than 1". But there's no squealling and charging and exhaust water seem to be as expected.
Ok sounds good.
BTW that pump has nothing to do with the seawater system and exhaust - it is on a closed engine/water heater system.
Remove the belt and check for pump shaft wobble. It might be worth rebuilding, but that's probably a toss up.
PBY : The way I check the belt tension is take your fingers to the longest run and twist the belt. proper tension is when you can twist it ONLY 90 degrees (Old Farmers Almanac).
A thought
Quote from: pbyrne on June 04, 2024, 09:53:25 AMIs this it? https://www.gciron.com/Kubota_Parts_16241_73037_PUMP_WATER_ASSY_p/ku-16241-73037.htm
Previously addressed:
Quote-- there are two different Kubota pumps with different P/Ns
and impeller sizes. Apparently, the pump capacity was insufficient and the impeller size was increased, which necessitated a whole string of changes at the front end of the engine.
Take your old pump to the dealer to match it up to be sure.[/b]
Or, at least remove the old pump and measure the impeller to match up the correct pump.
Messicks.com is a good online Kubota dealer with human type people you can talk to. They supplied me most of the Kb parts manuals for the wiki.
Regarding the weep hole, it's defo rusted at and around the hole. Major kudos for even noting that.
Can you clean off all the discoloration? Perhaps watch it for a while.
Quote from: Ron Hill on June 04, 2024, 10:51:29 AMPBY : The way I check the belt tension is take your fingers to the longest run and twist the belt. proper tension is when you can twist it 90 degrees (Old Farmers Almanac).
A thought
Yup! That's been what I've been using as a rule of thumb. The belt seems to 'vibrate' or deflect when the engine is running about an 1" maybe 1.5" when the engine is running, but it doesn't seem to be loose.
Quote from: KWKloeber on June 04, 2024, 11:12:49 AMQuote from: pbyrne on June 04, 2024, 09:53:25 AMIs this it? https://www.gciron.com/Kubota_Parts_16241_73037_PUMP_WATER_ASSY_p/ku-16241-73037.htm
Previously addressed:
Quote-- there are two different Kubota pumps with different P/Ns
and impeller sizes. Apparently, the pump capacity was insufficient and the impeller size was increased, which necessitated a whole string of changes at the front end of the engine.
My guess is that Universals have the larger impeller.
I am not 100% sure of the correct P/N for the B series engines but it is probably P/N #16241-73037 which is the newer P/N and probably the larger impeller.
The older P/N is 16251-73032 and is probably the smaller impeller.
Take your old pump to the dealer to match it up to be sure.
Or, at least remove the old pump and measure the impeller to match up the correct pump.
Messicks.com is a good online Kubota dealer with human type people you can talk to. They supplied me most of the Kb parts manuals for the wiki.
Regarding the weep hole, it's defo rusted at and around the hole. Major kudos for even noting that.
Can you clean off all the discoloration? Perhaps watch it for a while.
Yeah taking it to the dealer makes the most sense. Have to find something around Kingston Ontario. Quick look didn't show anything.
I'll clean it off and see what happens. I've never seen any liquid there at any time. Is this something that would reasonably need replaced with 900ish hours? This will sounds crazy but I think it even had the original Westerbeke belt on it until I changed it a couple of years ago.
Your Engine Parts Manual lists two pumps, different impellers
One is 2.25" dia.
The other is 2.75" dia.
So the B engines had both ones, not just the larger impeller as I thought.
A Google search on the Kubota P/Ns shows that there are two size impellers -- 60mm and 70mm.
On Amazon Kumar Bros. has Universal pumps listed - search for your Universal pump p/n.
I have no experience w/ pump longevity on B engines, but there can be a lemon in any basket, right?
I suffered the same issues in 2018. I have hull #1535, so we almost certainly have the exact same coolant pump. This post from 2018 gives a comprehensive view of the options and touches on every one of your concerns. Note that Kubota seems to change their part numbers every couple of years, so the the current numbers may have changed by now (at least once):
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9461.msg77379.html#msg77379
Quote from: Breakin Away on June 05, 2024, 01:27:42 PMI suffered the same issues in 2018. I have hull #1535, so we almost certainly have the exact same coolant pump. This post from 2018 gives a comprehensive view of the options and touches on every one of your concerns. Note that Kubota seems to change their part numbers every couple of years, so the the current numbers may have changed by now (at least once):
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9461.msg77379.html#msg77379
OK. I read through it. So... I should be able to unbolt the pulley cover and test the shaft for play pretty easily, and as the engine is pre 2005, it should be the 57mm/2.25" pump, possibly P/N 16251-73032. Gasket P/N unknown?
What is the best way to drain the coolant and then refill to ensure no air is in the system?
Last but not least, does anyone know a Canadian distributor near Kingston, Ontario? It would be nice to walk in and compare.
Quote from: Ron Hill on May 29, 2024, 03:00:11 PMpby : Yes, the weep holes are there to let you know that water OR a oil seal needs to be changed!! :thumb:
A thought
Does changing the pump fix both issues..?
Breakin
I plumb forgot that you had gone thru that! And I did actually look on the wiki about B engines. -- I added a note to your wiki post to clarify that it pertains to "the Bs".
Quote from: Breakin Away on June 05, 2024, 01:27:42 PMKubota seems to change their part numbers every couple of years, so the the current numbers may have changed by now (at least once):
For "B" engines built:
<=Dec 2004 (date code E412) the current Kb P/Ns are 16241-73037 60mm impeller pump; replaces Wb pump 200820. Kumar Bros P/N 200820.
Jan 2005 and => (date code E501) the current Kb P/Ns are 16251-73032 70mm impeller pump / gasket; replaces Wb pump 201107 / gasket 301107; for
The benefit of using Messicks is that if you search a Kb P/N, it gives you the history of any past P/Ns that "your" number supersedes and it also shows if "your" number is superseded by a newer P/N.
Noted that you had some difficulty because there were apparently two (or more) completely different P/Ns for the same 60mm pump. The way Kb numbers its parts is by the
equipment it is on so a Kb tractor, Skid Steer, excavator, and generator might all have different P/Ns for exactly the same part. When searching for some parts I have found that depending on what Kb model equipment it is on, the price of the identical part can vary -- sometimes significantly.
Note also that Kumar DOES carry the 2-1/4" pump; search for the Wb P/N on the Kumar site.
A reason why EDI might not have found the P/N is that different divisions (say an agricultural dealer) can sometimes NOT be able to access/buy P/Ns that are from the other division (Dealer protection -- just like Wb has strict dealer territory agreements.)
Quote from: pbyrne on June 06, 2024, 07:55:41 PMWhat is the best way to drain the coolant and then refill to ensure no air is in the system?
Engine Overheating 101 - How to Burp Your Engine (Reply #6) http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4518.msg26462.html#msg26462
Quote from: pbyrne on June 06, 2024, 07:57:20 PMDoes changing the pump fix both issues..?
I believe Ron may have been thinking of the seawater pump (which has oil and water seals.) Have you researched your Parts Manual? It shows the exploded parts of the coolant pump, which is actually really simple (probably the simplest turning piece on your engine.) It's invaluable to familiar with the manual -- it answers many questions and can be a lifesaver in an emergency situation!
The coolant pump has only one seal between the water chamber and the shaft.
Dealers in Ca are bit different than in the US re: what equipment they can order parts for.
The Kubota Global website has a search for dealers in every region by the type of equipment.
You do not need to unbolt anything to check for wobble.
Quote from: KWKloeber on May 27, 2024, 09:28:47 PMRemove the belt and see if the shaft will wobble.
Quote from: KWKloeber on June 06, 2024, 08:24:00 PMQuote from: pbyrne on June 06, 2024, 07:57:20 PMDoes changing the pump fix both issues..?
I believe Ron may have been thinking of the seawater pump (which has oil and water seals.) Have you researched your Parts Manual? It shows the exploded parts of the coolant pump, which is actually really simple (probably the simplest turning piece on your engine.) It's invaluable to familiar with the manual -- it answers many questions and can be a lifesaver in an emergency situation!
The coolant pump has only one seal between the water chamber and the shaft.
Dealers in Ca are bit different than in the US re: what equipment they can order parts for.
The Kubota Global website has a search for dealers in every region by the type of equipment.
You do not need to unbolt anything to check for wobble.
Quote from: KWKloeber on May 27, 2024, 09:28:47 PMRemove the belt and see if the shaft will wobble.
Yeah, I'll take a look when I get back to the boat. It's 2 hours away at the moment.
Look like there is a Kubota dealer in town. I'll see what they make of that P/N.
How tricky is it to retension the belt? I don't have anything other than standard hand tools on board. Do you need a lot of leverage?
I don't have a B engine but it does help to help to have a tensioner.
https://c34.org/search_gcse/?q=Belt+tensioner
I believe some have used a bar clamp (backwards) as a pulley spreader.
Quote from: KWKloeber on June 06, 2024, 08:04:05 PMBreakin
I plumb forgot that you had gone thru that! And I did actually look on the wiki about B engines. -- I added a note to your wiki post to clarify that it pertains to "the Bs".
Quote from: Breakin Away on June 05, 2024, 01:27:42 PMKubota seems to change their part numbers every couple of years, so the the current numbers may have changed by now (at least once):
For "B" engines built:
<=Dec 2004 (date code E412) the current Kb P/Ns are 16241-73037 60mm impeller pump; replaces Wb pump 200820. Kumar Bros P/N 200820.
Jan 2005 and => (date code E501) the current Kb P/Ns are 16251-73032 70mm impeller pump / gasket; replaces Wb pump 201107 / gasket 301107; for
The benefit of using Messicks is that if you search a Kb P/N, it gives you the history of any past P/Ns that "your" number supersedes and it also shows if "your" number is superseded by a newer P/N.
Noted that you had some difficulty because there were apparently two (or more) completely different P/Ns for the same 60mm pump. The way Kb numbers its parts is by the equipment it is on so a Kb tractor, Skid Steer, excavator, and generator might all have different P/Ns for exactly the same part. When searching for some parts I have found that depending on what Kb model equipment it is on, the price of the identical part can vary -- sometimes significantly.
Note also that Kumar DOES carry the 2-1/4" pump; search for the Wb P/N on the Kumar site.
A reason why EDI might not have found the P/N is that different divisions (say an agricultural dealer) can sometimes NOT be able to access/buy P/Ns that are from the other division (Dealer protection -- just like Wb has strict dealer territory agreements.)
Old" pumps with
2.25" impeller: 16241-73030, 16241-73032, 16241-73033, 16241-73034, 16241-73037, 16251-73030,
16251-73032 (current model, but seems to change frequently).
"New" pumps with 2.75" impeller: 16251-73034, 16251-73037 (very recent change not shown on most dealers' lists)
Ok, need some help. According to the original post, for a 2000 Catalina the part number is
16251-73032, but in the above post it's listed as the part number for the 2005 and greater.
I asked the local Kubota for 73032 and the have it for $$264.36 CAD + 13% tax...and they can't tell me the impeller size. If I return it, other than the massive PITA that would be after removing the pump, they want a 20% restock.
Exact guidance on the correct P/N would be greatly appreciated! :D
Breakin confirmed he installed a 2-1/4" pump and the part number.
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9461.msg77421.html#msg77421
What are you questioning? Where did you obtain "for a 2000 Catalina the part number is 16251-73032".
I think if you need further confirmation than Breakin's actual install, you might need to call several dealers (as Breakin did) until you find one in stock and confirm the part number and impeller size.
Or as I said earlier Kumar Bros lists a replacement to the Westerbeke part number (I believe on Amazon.)
Quote from: KWKloeber on June 15, 2024, 03:48:28 PMBreakin confirmed he installed a 2-1/4" pump and the part number.
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9461.msg77421.html#msg77421
What are you questioning? Where did you obtain "for a 2000 Catalina the part number is 16251-73032".
I think if you need further confirmation than Breakin's actual install, you might need to call several dealers (as Breakin did) until you find one in stock and confirm the part number and impeller size.
Or as I said earlier Kumar Bros lists a replacement to the Westerbeke part number (I believe on Amazon.)
Breakin's post says
16251-73032 is for 'Old' i.e <= 2005.
"Old" pumps with 2.25" impeller: 16241-73030, 16241-73032, 16241-73033, 16241-73034, 16241-73037, 16251-73030,
16251-73032 (current model, but seems to change frequently).
But your post says, 16251-73032 is for >=2005.
Jan 2005 and => (date code E501) the current Kb P/Ns are
16251-73032 70mm impeller pump / gasket; replaces Wb pump 201107 / gasket 301107
I'd love to go to a dealer and see, but this is Canada, or around here at least keeping parts in stock is unlikely. The US of A is way ahead on stuff like that. Canada not so much.... as I said they'll order it in, and if it's wrong its a 20% restock and $20 shipping. That's half of what it costs.
I'd like to be 100% sure it's the correct part number as I have no way to actually see the part up front.
pby : The first thing you need to do is like Ken mentioned - take off the belt and see if you have wobble in the pulley shaft. Maybe you don't need a new pump!!
On tightening/tensioning the belt - on my new M25XPBengine I can't use the belt tensioner that I had for the old M25XP engine. I am able to push on the alternator with one hand and then tighten the bolt with the other. I can't fit the belt tensioner in anymore!! (I've got the older large case Balmar alternator)
A few thoughts
Quote from: Ron Hill on July 01, 2024, 02:54:22 PMpby : The first thing you need to do is like Ken mentioned - take off the belt and see if you have wobble in the pulley shaft. Maybe you don't need a new pump!!
On tightening/tensioning the belt - on my new M25XPBengine I can't use the belt tensioner that I had for the old M25XP engine. I am able to push on the alternator with one hand and then tighten the bolt with the other. I can't fit the belt tensioner in anymore!! (I've got the older large case Balmar alternator)
A few thoughts
I can hear a slight clicking sounds when a over the pump up and down it's a very slight noise but it's there. Also nothing is coming out of the weeping hole (I had the paper in) and after I cleaned up the discolouration in the photos with CLR there has been no further discolouration.
I'm a bit puzzled at this point...