Crack in Lead Keel - NO SMILE

[GB]

Three other guys & myself purchased a 1988 Catalina 34 in the Fall of 2016.  The information that we found on this board was invaluable throughout the process and we're very thankful to all contributors.  Unfortunately, we've come across an issue that need some advice on... 

The boat DID NOT have a Catalina "Smile" and had many of the critical upgrades that we could see completed plus an owner that was very aware of this board/critical upgrades, which is a big reason we purchased this particular boat.  However, there were two unusual streaks mid-keel that looked almost like a rust or epoxy stain.  The surveyor did not detect any moisture there so she thought it was ok and the previous owner indicated that he filled pinholes in that area with six-ten epoxy per the advice of a local Catalina dealer.  Although the area bulged out slightly, I simply attributed that to a poor epoxy job and we ended up purchasing the boat.  I didn't think much of it until over the winter when the area split open vertically.  I have since ground the area out to gain a better view and discovered a large vertical crack in the actual lead.  You can see epoxy in the cracks, which leads me to believe that the previous owner filled more than just pin holes...

While researching the issue, I came across this White Paper from MarsKeel:
https://marskeel.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Keel_Repair_White_Paper.pdf

The casting deterioration section in the white paper that describes the lead keel swelling seems applicable to me.  My read of it is that at least part of the crack goes straight to the keel bolt, so at least this keel bolt is compromised and likely to get worse next winter should the boat be stored outside again.  Consequently, we are trying to determine what our next steps should be.  Any advice as to possible solutions (short & long term) is appreciated.  Ideally, we would like to sail the boat this summer and attack any long term fix next fall while the boat is on the hard for the winter.

I've attached pictures of the areas in question back in the fall for perspective, this Spring before grinding, after grinding from afar, and a close up of the crack.  (Please note that you may have to rotate some of the pictures as the rotation appeared different depending upon the program that I used to view the image -- the crack & streaks run vertical as far as orienting the picture)  Other information that might be pertinent is that the boat has been in freshwater its entire life as far as we know.  The farthest front and back keel bolts have some surface rust on them but the middle ones are all clean.

Any insight is greatly appreciated and thanks again to all who contribute here.

[KWKloeber]

 GB,

Without having eyes, ears, tools, and hands on, it would appear that you have the wood plank in the keel bus  and water has gotten down through the bolts and is at least attacking along them.

You might not see a smile now, but I wouldn't be surprised if under the fairing you have a keel-to-buss  joint that is also attacked, or may have been fixed (extent and method unknown,) in the past.

The length and amount of compromised area doesn't look good (again without the benefit of hands on). 

Water getting down and into those areas and the keel joint, with northern freeze/thaw  can cause real problems when the water isn't stopped  correctly.   Looks like you may have  unknowingly gotten a "PO Job".

If you do a search from the homepage, you'll find some pictures I posted where I removed the keel on my 30, to rebed it and fix my water situation.

Ken

[lazybone]

Three other guys & myself purchased a 1988 Catalina 34 in the Fall of 2016.  The information that we found on this board was invaluable throughout the process and we're very thankful to all contributors.  Unfortunately, we've come across an issue that need some advice on... 

The boat DID NOT have a Catalina "Smile" and had many of the critical upgrades that we could see completed plus an owner that was very aware of this board/critical upgrades, which is a big reason we purchased this particular boat.  However, there were two unusual streaks mid-keel that looked almost like a rust or epoxy stain.  The surveyor did not detect any moisture there so she thought it was ok and the previous owner indicated that he filled pinholes in that area with six-ten epoxy per the advice of a local Catalina dealer.  Although the area bulged out slightly, I simply attributed that to a poor epoxy job and we ended up purchasing the boat.  I didn't think much of it until over the winter when the area split open vertically.  I have since ground the area out to gain a better view and discovered a large vertical crack in the actual lead.  You can see epoxy in the cracks, which leads me to believe that the previous owner filled more than just pin holes...

While researching the issue, I came across this White Paper from MarsKeel:
https://marskeel.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Keel_Repair_White_Paper.pdf

The casting deterioration section in the white paper that describes the lead keel swelling seems applicable to me.  My read of it is that at least part of the crack goes straight to the keel bolt, so at least this keel bolt is compromised and likely to get worse next winter should the boat be stored outside again.  Consequently, we are trying to determine what our next steps should be.  Any advice as to possible solutions (short & long term) is appreciated.  Ideally, we would like to sail the boat this summer and attack any long term fix next fall while the boat is on the hard for the winter.

I've attached pictures of the areas in question back in the fall for perspective, this Spring before grinding, after grinding from afar, and a close up of the crack.  (Please note that you may have to rotate some of the pictures as the rotation appeared different depending upon the program that I used to view the image -- the crack & streaks run vertical as far as orienting the picture)  Other information that might be pertinent is that the boat has been in freshwater its entire life as far as we know.  The farthest front and back keel bolts have some surface rust on them but the middle ones are all clean.

Any insight is greatly appreciated and thanks again to all who contribute here.

"filled a few pinholes"

Find the previous owner and stick your foot up his ass.

Sorry, but its obvious the PO "with intent" disguised the seriousness of the damage.
From the picks its would appear that the stainless keel bolts have corroded and swelled enough to split lead keel.

[Stu Jackson]

Welcome, glad you're here.  Sorry to hear about your issues.

1.  Do you have any pictures from inside showing the keel bolts that are directly above this crack?

2.  Can you advise as to how deep you think this crack is on the keel?

3.  Is it only on one side?

4. The 101 Topics has a link to one of our members who completely dropped his keel and documented it.  It was for the Catalina Smile, which it does not appear you have, but at least will give you a better idea of what's involved.

5.  Have you considered getting in touch with Gerry Douglas at Catalina and asking for his opinion?  He doesn't read this forum, so you might have to send him the photos.

[GB]

Thanks Stu.

1) I don't have any pictures of the keel bolts handy, but can get some the next time I go up to the boat.  From what I remember, the keel bolts above this area are clean and there is some sort of white caulk underneath these particular washer/nuts.
2) I am sure it's over 1-2 inches deep in spots (not across the entire crack), but don't really know.  I was so upset when I saw it that I stopped grinding for fear of making things worse since I wasn't sure how to proceed and can't "ungrind".  There is at least one spot wherein the filled epoxy is gone that I can probably get a screwdriver or something in there to get a better idea.  My fear is that the lead is cracked all the way to the keel bolt.  I don't see how this could of happened otherwise unless the keel was damaged in some other way.
3) Yes - the crack is only on one side.  I saw a rust like mark on the other side that wasn't there before, so I ground it away but found the lead to be fine.
4) Thanks!  I did see Indian Falls' keel rebed write-up as well as the diagrams Ken received from Catalina that are both posted here:  http://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Hull
5) Yes.  I was going to call the Catalina phone # since I thought I read somewhere on here that he doesn't do email.  Is there a better way to get in touch with him?  I also emailed MarsKeel for their opinion.

Thanks again,
Greg

[Noah]

It will probably not get you much help, or satisfaction, but if it were me I would (as politely as I could under the circumstances) ask the surveyor you used when buying the boat, to come revisit it and explain what they think has "now revealed itself...and how they would deal with it".

[KWKloeber]

It will probably not get you much help, or satisfaction, but if it were me I would (as politely as I could under the circumstances) ask the surveyor you used when buying the boat, to come revisit it and explain what they think has "now revealed itself...and how they would deal with it".

Doubt that would ever happen, Noah.

Surveyors are "trained" to not assume the liability of stating the means/methods to fix a deficiency, especially something that extensive.  They will "sight it" and "cite it" and, unless it's an unusual/exceptional professional, state only as much as "suitably repair or replace."  We wouldn't expect them to say how to fix a VHF that doesn't transmit, because they're not electronics experts -- and they're also not mechanical or fiberglass repair(wo)men.

I was brokering a boat for a deceased owner's widow that had visible damage to a bulkhead due to water intrusion.  I asked a surveyor to do a pre-listing survey to address the problem and severity (I had carefully looked at it and was convinced that it was just surface/top veneer delamination, nothing structural.  500$ later I got a survey that said "sighted discolored bulkhead, and damaged teak veneer possibly due to water intrusion."   Really?  "Why then, didn't you reveal when we discussed this, that you weren't qualified to do what I hired you for?"  He said he'd revise the survey to address it, and added: "Determine cause and repair as necessary and replace damaged bulkhead teak laminate."  Jackass.

k

[Paulus]

GB
You might go back about 12 years on this site, Kirk Fischer(Fisher) was a member at that time.  He was successful at getting the surveyor and former owner to pay for part of the cost of a very serious blistering problem which the surveyor had missed.
Paul

[lazybone]

GB
You might go back about 12 years on this site, Kirk Fischer(Fisher) was a member at that time.  He was successful at getting the surveyor and former owner to pay for part of the cost of a very serious blistering problem which the surveyor had missed.
Paul

If that was a home and damage was hidden it would be an easy call.   Not sure about boats.  I'll ask my fancy pants lawyer daughter in law what she thinks.  She likes talking shop.

[KWKloeber]

A consideration may be that Fla and Cali license  boat brokers. 
States that do not, may not require disclosure of known defects, whereas it may apply, as eg, real estate and real estate brokers; to boats brokered in those two states. 

Not a lawyer, dunno, but a thought.

k

[Ron Hill]

GB : Do as Stu suggested and get in contact with Gerry Douglas (VP Catalina yachts).  He is the designer and was the Chief Engineer when your C34 was built.  (800) 654-2914 X235

Good Luck

[GB]

Thanks to all for the suggestions.  Here's an update...

Surveyor - She thinks the keel bolts corroded, expanded, and cracked the lead.  She confirms my suspicions of a "disguise" and thinks we can seal the cracks in the short term with epoxy as was done previously while pursuing a long term fix of dropping and fixing the actual keel before rebedding.  She suggested I speak with MarsKeel for another perspective as well as have a conversation with the previous owner for some monetary or labor recourse.

Gerry Douglas - I was able to reach Gerry at the Florida factory and am absolutely amazed & grateful that he takes owner's calls.  Gerry had a very hard time believing that the keel was actually cracked until he saw the pictures.  His advice is to ground out the cracks more, send him pictures, and let him know what we find.  He assured me that we can patch the keel back up and is not of the belief that water came down the keel bolts but wouldn't speculate further without more information.

MarsKeel - Indicated that Catalina made the keels themselves back then and wants me to ask Gerry if there was an upper core added to the top of the keel that might be the source of the rust as opposed to the keel bolts.  (I wonder if this is similar to the two steel lift points that Indian Fall's mentioned?)  He confirmed frost damage but did not think it could be safely patched in anyway and did not think I should grind more.  His advice is to drop the keel and send it to MarsKeel for repair.


I've got an email into Gerry about the upper core and will wait to hear back until I grind.  Frankly, I am sheepish about grinding deeper into the keel and enlarging the crack.  Maybe Gerry figures it's compromised anyway, so what's the harm?  I am guessing that he wants to see how deep it is, if there are any voids/water pockets, etc.

How aggressive would you guys be with the grinding?  The old epoxy will have to come out regardless, so I am fine removing that, but not so sure about going beyond that.

[KWKloeber]

IIWMB, there would be no point NOT GRINDING out whatever is needed to expose the extent of damage.  Otherwise you don't know what you are leaving hidden.  That is, unless "Mr. x" has run across exactly the same thing before, and knows exactly what the damage would be, and what the fix is.  BUT, that doesn't sound like the situation?

That said IIWMB, I wouldn't remove any considerable amount of good lead, just to get deeper.  I would remove all epoxy carefully, down (or over) to good lead, and as deep as you can reach with the lightest (thinnest) blade you can use to get in there and down to as deep as you can reach to get to the "base" of the damage, disturbing a minimum of good lead on either side.

Now, you may find that as you get deeper, you may start needing to open up the slot, to get to more extensive damage that is "wider" below the good lead.  At that point IIWMB, I'd get more pics back to Gerry for guidance.

ken

[Noah]

Just a reminder: please wear a good respirator and cover up when grinding lead.

[J_Sail]

Noah is right ... and also please be responsible in disposing of the debris and lead dust that lands on your tarp. Even in tiny doses it stunts intellectual growth in children, and you don't want to contribute to another generation of kids growing up as dumb as we are.