Winch Service & Main halyard hoisting issues

[Noah]

I think the idea is to have it inline with the halyard deck collar turning block path so that when you pull out the slack (from in the cockpit) it pops the halyard out of the cam cleat.

[britinusa]

I think the idea is to have it inline with the halyard deck collar turning block path so that when you pull out the slack (from in the cockpit) it pops the halyard out of the cam cleat.

Egzactly!

Paul

[Paulus]

Thanks,
It then needs to be down from the spot were the halyard exits the mast.
Paul

[KWKloeber]

Paul

On whether in line or offset depends on the kind of cleat and angle the line makes to the mast.

First, as to your cleat, I have one also, which was for a poor man's/woman's Cunningham. A line a fixed to the stick on port passed up through the cringle, through the center of the cleat horn (a poor pulley) and you tweak luff the using that line, and bend it on the cleat.  Naturally the mechanical advantage is 2x and with the horn friction it. well, sucks. As I said a poor attempt at a downhaul/Cunningham, similar to comparing a garhauer block and tackle backstay adjuster, to a haarstik hydraulic adjuster. :-)

So for the cam/clam.    It depends on the angle of pull to the downhaul block -- I don't know what that angle is on a 34, before Stu jumps on my butt :-)

. Imagine the halyard's fair lead angle to the lift block is parallel to the mast - the line would tend to seat back into the cams if it were directly in line.  In that case I'd offset it maybe the width of one cam, so it pops free, but doesn't engage when taught.

If the angle is such that the halyard can't reengage then it can be installed "in line."

With a vertical (vee) clam cleat the same is true.

With a lateral cam cleat, putting it exactly in line doesn't work well because you'll be putting a lot of stress on one of the clam "shell" halves.  You need to pull slightly sideways, so the line pops out of the clam's mouth so to speak. So with that type I'd probably place the open edge of the clam at, or just slightly off from, "in line."

  If there's a wide angle between the stick and the halyard to the lift block, then the lateral cam isn't the best, and a cam or vertical clam (sometimes called a vee  block) would be better. I think you guys have a vee block on your main sheet?  Or at least I've seen that was oem on many CTYs.

You could actually use a jam cleat, with the jam facing down. The tension will lock it if the remaining line to the cockpit is  untensioned. Tension it, and it will pop out of the jam "jaw." 

In any event it should be only very temporary, unloaded main.  Any of  those types aren't meant to take high halyard loads.  Sometimes clutches aren't enough.  I did a job on a J/120 (40') and with its huge main and higher tech lighter lines these days, it had to be double double clutched to prevent slippage. Before that the pit person had to keep the halyard on the winch, or it would slip over time.

kk

[Noah]

Ken- Impressive long dissertation, but IMO, TMI -- over the complicating issue. Intent of the cam cleat is to hold the main halyard temporarily while head to wind, long enough to go back to cockpit, pull out the slack, wrap it on the winch, then tension the halyard--thus popping the halyard out of the cam, and then winching the last foot or so taught. Easy-peasy!

[KWKloeber]

Thanks,
It then needs to be down from the spot were the halyard exits the mast.
Paul

Absolutely, you have the picture :-) Paul.
The halyard has to run so it can't re-snag into the cleat, no matter the type you use.

Noah If it was so absolutely easypeasy, there would be NO questions from ANYONE on it, correct? i.e. "Intuitively obvious so the solution is left to the student as an excercise." LOL

Not everyone wants to be told what to do - some like to understand WHY.
Although, YPYC MPMC.

k

[Paulus]

Noah, thanks for the link with the pic.(worth a thousand words)  It had never crossed my mind to solve this little issue, just kept on using the cleat and making two trips to the cabin top. 
Paul
PS:  I intend to use a cam cleat?

[sailaway]

I like this idea of a clam cleat on the mast. I changed  the mast head sheave , mast base sheave, deck sheaves to Garhauer  roller bearing. I wasted my money, I got a small improvement . It's like hauling a grand piano up the mast to many friction points. Charlie

[Jon W]

Thinking thru the "what if's" of main halyard would be worth a few minutes to me. Sure wouldn't want the camcleat to re-engage when I'm putting in the 1st or 2nd reef in the main from the cockpit.

[Noah]

Charlie- the Tides Strong mast track system, although a bit pricey at approx $1,200, was well worth it to me. My main hoists up super easy and drops like a rock.

Jon-- I don't think the cam cleat would engage during reefing as you would have to pull halyard straight down against mast to engage. The angle of the turning blocks on the mast collar leading to deck organizers should keep it away from the cleat and accidently re-engaging. I would guess? All theory for me as I still haven't run my reefing lines aft. It's on my list as soon as I free up two clutches, add another stack to one of my deck organizer and get some time away from work. I would like to stop by and see how yours worked out some upcoming weekend.

[Stu Jackson]

Here's the definition:

CAM cleats have two movable jaws.

CLAM cleats are fixed usually plastic line holders under pressure from the standing end.

JAM cleats are offset regular cleats, usually used in Europe that have absolutely NO place on a boat - I think they're dangerous, because if improperly used, with the standing or bitter end on the lower edge, they will not release without unusual pressure, which "ain't good."

For Ken:  The mast base block connections make the halyards stand proud of the base.  So cam cleats without "keepers", in line with the halyard, work perfectly. 

[Noah]

Since this thread has been somewhat hijacked (my bad) from "winch service" to include "Main halyard hoisting issues" perhaps it should be retitled or split into two? Lots of good info here.

[KWKloeber]

I like this idea of a clam cleat on the mast. I changed  the mast head sheave , mast base sheave, deck sheaves to Garhauer  roller bearing. I wasted my money, I got a small improvement . It's like hauling a grand piano up the mast to many friction points. Charlie

Charlie,

Wondering your thinking why you prefer a clam?  Vertical mount, I presume?

I've done the same as you and no big difference in the work needed to rise the main on my 30.  Something ain't right....... but I can't locate what it is.

Interestingly though, I used the Garhauer BB masthead sheaves, but when you talk to the big boys they won't use BB sheaves (with good reasoning I believe after I heard the explanation.)  For high static loads like halyards, a high surface sleeve bearing or roller bearing is much better than a tiny surface ball bearing. 

I had custom masthead sheaves manufactured for a Beneteau race boat and the shop wouldn't make bb ones -- only delrin, or as we decided on, custom-machined aluminum sheaves with (the better than delrin) oil-impregnated polished bronze bearings.

ken

[Jon W]

Hi Noah, I have 2 reef lines led back to the cockpit. Both are a single line system external to the boom. I'm booked Saturday but available otherwise just let me know.

[Jon W]

The rigger that re-did my standing rigging said the same thing. So I left the OEM bronze bearing sheaves, but he recommended that the groove be opened up for a better fit with 1/2" halyard.