A long story 'bout CTY / (was) CTY Smile a defect?

[KWKloeber]

I mean after all isn't this a production/engineering defect ?

Caution: A long story, specifically a personal experience, re: CTY design/engineering, customer relations, etc ---
Please hit "delete" if this is TMI or you can't deal with my unabashed negative attitude about CTY, based on personal experience.

When I fixed my 1984 C-30's bad keel joint ~20 yrs ago (again she was somewhere < 9 yrs old when the fairing crack in the fairing and keel joint water leak surfaced.  I was young and dumb (now I'm old and more dumb) and was aware of neither the wood plank nor the keel bedding material. 

So, I gathered as much info as I blindly could -- talked to Gougeon Bros and other C-30 owners.  And then, Frank -- about what I was seeing, its cause, etc. 

I didn't blame CTY or asked or expected CTY to pay for it or to have my yard fix it.  To understand "why" this happened (i.e., the engineer's approach) I was looking for guidance (that's all I wanted.)   Other's guidance (to fix it correctly and permanently) was "drop the lead, grind away all polyester resin bedding, and rebed the keel/stub joint w/ 5200."

Speaking with Frank, his helpfulness was (paraphrased) 'whaddayah want?  It's a 10-year-old boat.  If you want a perfect boat I can sell you a new 30.' 

Nice customer relations.

I chalk it up to just being defensive for f*'n up the design/engineering, wood-in-the-stub in the first place -- or maybe just a bad day in Woodland Hills  -- again, I don't know, nor back then, didn't view the joint deterioration as a design flaw.   I don't know what year the CTY-generated fixes came out, but nary an offer from Frank to fax the keel repair document (it was issued in Feb '96 and I spoke w/ Frank in April.)  I did later obtain the fix on the joint itself, but not the method/procedure to remove the wooden plank (otherwise I would have removed it and not just fixed the joint while I had the keel off and bolts out of the way.)

Not one suggestion (or caution) how to approach this repair, or guidance on dropping the keel, or cautions thereof offered.

Fast forward to the actual work....  Before doing anything the boat (in its cradle) was very precisely leveled and the keel checked for plumb (just the engineer again gathering more, rather than less data  -- rather than after (ooops too late.))    Hmmmm......  the keel was actually bolted up off-plumb, tipped to starboard.  I recall it being an inch or two off at the base.  NOT good!!??!!  Right? (the engineer says.)

I measured it precisely, and visual evidence further confirmed it (after grinding off all fairing, the keel joint on the port side was 3/8"+ wide, while on the stbd side was narrower -- like 1/4" -- as I said before, I used my long, 1/4" electrician bit to drill into the joint laterally, and the bit was actually scarfing the top surface of lead on the stbd side while there was ample margin on the port side.) 

hmmmmm......  I need to "improve on" the CTY workmanship when bolting this back up, right?  (again the engineer.)

So, LONG  repair story shortened -- after cleaning up the mating surfaces -- boat and lead precisely checked after loosely bolting up, the lead precisely positioned dead-on plumb -- 5200'd, bolted up and, after some curing, hand tightened, and finally torqued to spec, bla bla bla.

The (Bada bing) big reveal to the story...
Back in the water and for the 20 years since I have lived with the dreaded Catalina C-30 port list, which (I found out afterward) plagued the early C-30s. 

Nice, thank you for your guidance Frank. 
My bad for overthinking the work (or not thinking it through enough.)  And I don't blame CTY for bolting up later keels "canted" to offset the off-center-of-weight design on the C-30.  Just f*'n cooperate with an owner who asks for guidance (even if need to make them promise "Don't tell anyone else what we did to fix it.")  And don't deny again and again and again (are you still with CTY, David?) after long ago reading online my absolutely precise description of the CTY canted keel bolt up, how the historic C-30 port list magically "disappeared" in later years, and what happened as a result of Frank's helpful customer relations.  A "Gee, we regret this happened," would ease the pain, but then Frank's lawyers would have a heart attack.

So, among other reasons ... Why my distaste for CTY's engineering/design mistakes, and Frank in particular? Go figure.

So before all the "CTY is wonderful" die-hards blast this, AGAIN, this experience has NOTHING to do with Catalinas being GREAT boats for the money, them being production boats so therefore NOT perfect, and normal s**t happening during design/manufacturing.  All I expected (in retrospect)  -- just a little fess up, own what you did wrong, and be helpful to your customers.  So I have to blame myself and realize that Frank had no actual requirement to be either helpful or honest with me in particular -- I wasn't Frank's "customer" -- the PO was of course his customer. 

JTSO and I'm entitled to it.  But, regardless (or in spite of Frank) I still love Catalinas (I just don't love CTY as a company) --

-ken

[Stu Jackson]

Yeah, so, I wrapped my anchor line around the prop and strut on august 8th at Drakes Bay, 34 nm north of San Francisco.  Sailed all the way back to the Golden Gate bridge, Tow Boat US pulled us into Sausalito where the anchor I'd been dragging along behind us for the past eight hours finally found shallow enough water to grab onto the bottom.  Had a diver cut it loose the next morning, fired up the engine and all was well.  Sailed the boat on August 10th to September 18, 2016 to Vancouver Island up the entire Pacific Coast. 

I am SO tired of anti-CTY rants it makes me gag.

They make a great sturdy idiot-proof boat.

Fix the smile and get over it already.

[KWKloeber]

Way too predictable, Stu. The intro was specifically for you... you missed the 'delete' portion if you didn't want to hear a truthful and accurate tale about the exalted one.. <wink>

I'm really surprised, given your work background and intelligence, that you believe it's "just ok" to treat customers or anyone else that way.  We're a community that helps out each other.  I never would do that to a client or anyone else.

And you might re-read it <glasses> -- the smile WAS fixed without fanfare, and now live with something that CAN'T be fixed w/o great expense, and a smidgen of common courtesy from the exalted one would have not led to that. 

Luckily you haven't had a similar an encounter with CTY or the exalted, and I hope you or any other owner ever does -- so it was more of a warning to "caveat emptor."  The handful other times CTY parts has additionally screwed up with defective stuff I won't bother going into.  Well maybe just one example to bolster my point.  Like these to fit the flat, square, ice box lids.  And have never sent me my refund or a replacement.  It goes on...

Yes, I agree with you, we have a great boat -- it's what's behind it that leaves much to be desired.

-k

[Stu Jackson]

Nah, I "get it," and I am truly sorry you suffered bad treatment at the "hands of Frank," or by anyone else for that matter.

While CY has a very good reputation, standalone or compared to other more corporate and perhaps less understanding boat builders your story makes it clear that no one is perfect.

It's perfectly, well, uhm, frank, to tell the truth about your experiences.

[Capt.Jim]

Are you guys talking about Frank Butler or some other Frank?

[Noah]

Hey guys-- In the spirit of the season... I would like to have a little less "Frank-incensed" and a lot more "mirth". Whatya say?

[KWKloeber]

That was great. Were you a poet in a former life? 

All in good o' pokin'